I have a question on a subject I am not that clear on can u all help to explain.
The question is, Where all prophets (pbum) Muslims before the revelation of Islam, or did they reveal other religions with the same monotheistic basis. So was Prophet Isa (phuh) a Muslim, or did he reveal Christianity in its truest form, and if he had not been betrayed by the people and called the Son of God or the Torah had not been changed, would Christianity be in Islam’s place today. Basically what Im asking is how could prophets before Mohammed, and Islam have been Muslims if Islam had not even been revealed yet? Is it not that, how can you be muslim (a person that follows Islam) when Islam had not been revealed.
Is it that all the Prophets believed in one true religion (of there is only one God), and as each prophet came to the people that he was to guide with a new religion or is it a message. I would appreciate any thoughts.
(He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion which He ordained for Nuh, and that which We have revealed to you,) Allah mentions the first Messenger who was sent after Adam, that is, Nuh, peace be upon them, and the last of them is Muhammad . Then He mentions those who came in between them who were the Messengers of strong will, namely Ibrahim, Musa and `Isa bin Maryam. This Ayah mentions all five, just as they are also mentioned in the Ayah in Surat Al-Ahzab, where Allah says:
(And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you, and from Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, and `Isa son of Maryam.) (33:7). The Message which all the Messengers brought was to worship Allah Alone, with no partner or associate, as Allah says:
(And We did not send any Messenger before you but We revealed to him (saying): None has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me.) (21:25). And according to a Hadith (the Prophet said):
We Prophets are brothers and our religion is one.) In other words, the common bond between them is that Allah Alone is to be worshipped, with no partner or associate, even though their laws and ways may differ, as Allah says
To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way) (5:48). Allah says here
(saying you should establish religion and make no divisions in it.) meaning, Allah enjoined all the Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) to be as one and He forbade them to differ and be divided.
Personal comment:
United by Praying to Allah(SWT) but the laws were different.
Shas, here is a very basic thing that you should know about Islam, islam (Submission) is the religion of Abraham, God has said repeatedly in the Quran that you shall follow the religion of Abraham. Islam is about monotheism, submitting to ONE God and worshipping Him alone.
It is a misconception that Muhammed brought Islam. Islam was preached by Jesus, Moses, Noah, Ad, Shoaib, Joseph, Jonah, Isaac, Ismail, Abraham, and all the other named and un-named prophets and messengers.
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*Originally posted by aahmed: *
It is a misconception that Muhammed brought Islam. Islam was preached by Jesus, Moses, Noah, Ad, Shoaib, Joseph, Jonah, Isaac, Ismail, Abraham, and all the other named and un-named prophets and messengers.
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If these other prophets did preach Islam as understood by the Prophet Muhammad, why are there no evidence as to this fact. There are a vast number of manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts from very early time and NONE of these attest to your claim (this while there exist no evidence that a "clean-up" operation was ever undertaken in destroying conflicting manuscripts).
I believe Shas' question still beg to be answered, as also the other parts.
THE OLD MAN, so when you say that when God says in the Quran to follow the religion of Abraham, God meant some other religion? You're kidding me right?? We acknowledge Jesus, Moses, Noah, all these as messengers of God, what else would they be preaching?
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*Originally posted by aahmed: *
THE OLD MAN, so when you say that when God says in the Quran to follow the religion of Abraham, God meant some other religion? You're kidding me right?? We acknowledge Jesus, Moses, Noah, all these as messengers of God, what else would they be preaching?
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What I DID try and obtain is whether there are any other reason why it is believed that Islam also was preached by the other prophets other than the Quran.
If the only evidence is from the Quran, then I understand it to be based on faith - faith in that what the Quran say is absolute true.
I can accept that reasoning, for a person of the Islamic faith.
The question logically though still remain why other people of faith should believe it. Are there any evidence, for instance, that Abraham did teach Islam (other than the Quran)?
The other question that Shas asked is whether the Prophet Mohammad still would have been send if the other faith's, like Jewish and Christians, were not "corrupted". If any of these faiths stayed "true", would it still have been neccessary for God to send the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran?
I do not wish to be disrepectful of the Prophet Muhammad or the Quran. I ask forgiveness beforehand if I do affront someone with any statement or question of mine.
What I DID try and obtain is whether there are any other reason why it is believed that Islam also was preached by the other prophets other than the Quran.
If the only evidence is from the Quran, then I understand it to be based on faith - faith in that what the Quran say is absolute true.
I can accept that reasoning, for a person of the Islamic faith.
The question logically though still remain why other people of faith should believe it. Are there any evidence, for instance, that Abraham did teach Islam (other than the Quran)?
The other question that Shas asked is whether the Prophet Mohammad still would have been send if the other faith's, like Jewish and Christians, were not "corrupted". If any of these faiths stayed "true", would it still have been neccessary for God to send the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran?
I do not wish to be disrepectful of the Prophet Muhammad or the Quran. I ask forgiveness beforehand if I do affront someone with any statement or question of mine.
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Since the consequences of false religion are so grave, the true religion of Allah must be universally understandable andattainable, not confined to any people, place or time.Within the central principle of Islam and in its definition,(the surrender of one's will to God) lies the roots of Islam's universality.Whenever man comes to the realization that Allah is one and distinct from His creation, and submits himself to Allah, he becomes a Muslim in body and spiritand is eligible for paradise. Thus, anyone at anytime in the most remote region of the world can become a Muslim, a follower of God's religion, Islam, by merely rejecting the worship of creation and by turning to Allah (God) alone. It should be noted however, that the recognition of and submission to Allah requires thatone chooses between right and wrong and such a choice implies accountability.Man will be held responsible for his choices, and, as such, he should try his utmost to do good and avoid evil. The ultimate good being the worship of Allah alone and the ultimate evil being the worship of His creation along with or instead of Allah. This fact is expressed in the final revelation as follows:“ Verily those who believe, those who follow the Jewish(Scriptures), the Christians and the Sabians any who believe In Allah and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord; Theywill not be overcome by fear nor grief.”(Soorah Al-Baqarah 2:62).
“ If only they had stood by the law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There Is from among them a party on the right course;but many of them follow a course that Is evil.”(Soorah Al-Maa'idah5:66).
Prayers to Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, to Saint Christopher, or SaintJude or even to Muhammad, are not answered by them but are answered by Allah.Jesus did not tell his followers to worship him but to worship Allah. As theQur'an states:“And behold Allah will say: O Jesus the son of Mary Did you say to men, Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah? He will say: Glory to you I could never say what I had no right (to say')”(SoorahAl-maa'idah- 5:116).
It is worth noting that the basic message of Islam is that Allah and His creation are distinctly different entities. Neither is Allah His creation or apart of it, nor is His creation Him or a part of Him.
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
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*Originally posted by The Old Man: *
What I DID try and obtain is whether there are any other reason why it is believed that Islam also was preached by the other prophets other than the Quran...
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The Old Man, when Quran says that Islam was the religion of other Prophets as well, it does not mean that other Prophet had same "Sharia" too, but they all preached Unity of God, Day of Judgement, Only He be worthy of Worship, Angels etc. It does not mean that all the rules were same for other Prophets' nations for example one nation was prophibited from fishing on Saturdays (I think)... thats just one rule I can remember right now which didn't apply to other nations.
So Shariat varied from Prophet to Prophet, but the CORE message was same, pray to One God, believe in Day of Judgement and all that.
“ That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be', and it is” (Qur'an 19:34-35).
“ And they say, 'The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son'. You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-Merciful as a servant” (Qur'an 19:88-93).
“ Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be', and he was” (Qur'an 3:59).
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*Originally posted by Shas: *
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The question is, Where all prophets (pbum) Muslims before the revelation of Islam, or did they reveal other religions with the same monotheistic basis. So was Prophet Isa (phuh) a Muslim, or did he reveal Christianity in its truest form, and if he had not been betrayed by the people and called the Son of God or the Torah had not been changed, would Christianity be in Islam’s place today. Basically what Im asking is how could prophets before Mohammed, and Islam have been Muslims if Islam had not even been revealed yet? Is it not that, how can you be muslim (a person that follows Islam) when Islam had not been revealed...
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Dear Shas, as pointed by others as well, that Islam was not revealed to Prophet Mohammed PBUH, it can be considered "Last Edition" though.
As for your question that if Jesus/Moses's message had not been tampered/modified would "Christianity"/"Judaism" be in place of Islam!? Well, the purpose of sending a Prophet is to "correct" the belief of astrayed nation or guide a nation towards the lost message (God's unity etc.) then we can only guess that there wouldn't be a need of any Prophet, but then again it'd be a guess.
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If these other prophets did preach Islam as understood by the Prophet Muhammad, why are there no evidence as to this fact. There are a vast number of manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts from very early time and NONE of these attest to your claim
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The question logically though still remain why other people of faith should believe it. Are there any evidence, for instance, that Abraham did teach Islam (other than the Quran)?
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exactly, old man, spoken gospel truth....
how can we all nonmoslems get convinced, about this and other claims merely by your quoting verses from koran??...Rest of us are not abide by content of koran.
We would rather go by hard evidences and historical facts if you have any!!
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The other question that Shas asked is whether the Prophet Mohammad still would have been send if the other faith's, like Jewish and Christians, were not "corrupted". If any of these faiths stayed "true", would it still have been neccessary for God to send the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran?
I do not wish to be disrepectful of the Prophet Muhammad or the Quran. I ask forgiveness beforehand if I do affront someone with any statement or question of mine.
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its offending enough to have been told that someone else outside the faith, are appointed DIVINE CUSTODIANS of your faith, of your prophet and of your holy scriptures...and henceforth your prophet and religion is supersided by a new prophet and a new religion!!!
And now that moslems themselves claim that they are not 100% faithful to islam...why isn't god sending a new prophet to superside the old one...like he always did?
Would moslems accept any other man who claims to be a new prophet, and a new DIVINE custodian of their koran??
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
So Shariat varied from Prophet to Prophet, but the CORE message was same, pray to One God, believe in Day of Judgement and all that.
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Thanks for explaining, it makes sense what you say. It also raises some more questions:
What is the CORE message in it's complete sense?
If some of these prophets taught (for example) that the Sabbath/Sunday is sacred to God, won't the message always be the same by other prophets? Surely God does not change his mind every now and then.
Can a prophet of a later timespan nullify God's message through a prophet of an earlier timespan?
Why is there no record of the prophets send to other nations? The only record (as far as I understand) is those send to the Jewish people. Surely there would be some indication of the other prophet's teaching?
All the prophets in the Bible complemented each other. None of them taught some of the essential basics of Islam, e.g. prayer to Mecca, the Kaaba, the Quran, etc. Why didn't they at least refer to these?
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*Originally posted by The Old Man: *
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1. What is the CORE message in it's complete sense?
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God is one pray to Him and only Him with no partners, Judgement day, Angels, Messengers and Books.
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2. If some of these prophets taught (for example) that the Sabbath/Sunday is sacred to God, won't the message always be the same by other prophets? Surely God does not change his mind every now and then.
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Thats what I tried to explain earlier that some laws were different for different nations. Sabbath day is not really as important as God's unity, Messengers etc., right? I am not exactly sure about the wisdom about 'changing laws for nations' but my guess is that its one part of the test.
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3. Can a prophet of a later timespan nullify God's message through a prophet of an earlier timespan?
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Nullify as what? Totally disregard? I haven't seen any particular example where a Prophet totally disregarded message of previous prophet. Can you please clarify your question?
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4. Why is there no record of the prophets send to other nations? The only record (as far as I understand) is those send to the Jewish people. Surely there would be some indication of the other prophet's teaching?
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Noah? Lute? I don't think they were sent to Jewish people. If some record had been kept, then people could've demanded for complete archives, you know what I mean. Providing complete history or record is really not important to me as much as the core message.
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5. All the prophets in the Bible complemented each other. None of them taught some of the essential basics of Islam, e.g. prayer to Mecca, the Kaaba, the Quran, etc. Why didn't they at least refer to these?
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I think they were mandated some sort of prayers, if not exactly the way Muslims pray today. Christians do fasting, right? Muslims do too, the way may be different, but that can be easily said that "Christians modified the law" etc.
I can only provide answers to questions to which I can so you can ask, if I know I'll reply to it, otherwise someone else may try it :)
I think with christianity kosher laws were ignored or as some ssay nullified, so there is one example. otherwise shoudn't christians be following those laws as well.
Because the same argument can be made, if God told ppl not to do something in the old testament why would he then change that in the new testament. why would he have ppl pray differently.
as far as noting other religions, I dont think that there is much in the bible about other religions either, surely i dont recall reading about hinduism in there.
just like muslims claim abraham was spreading the same message that islam is, other abrahamic faiths believe that he was saying what they are saying, and the only proof is their own books.
I think Jews disregard jesus the same way christians disregard mohammad.
and the same way muslims disregard bahais.
I dont think there is one religion out there that can prove that it is the right way or the only way.
The CORE message is/was worship of the one and only true God, Allah. All the Prophets were Muslims as Muslim means one who submits to the will of Allah :swt:. And who could submit more to the will of Allah :swt: than great men like Ibrahim :as:, Musa :as:, Eesa :as: and the Holy Prophet :saw: who became Prophets…
Why not? What makes you think He can’t change His mind? it’s His universe, He can do whatever He wants…Allah :swt: certainly won’t be bound by the logics and thinking of men…He can have multiple names, multiple forms, anything He desires…But this is for a fact, that the message after Islam will now never be changed. Islam was the stamp of final approval. So he decided to make Friday holy, His wish, not ours.
Absolutely. The Message to Hazrat Musa (as) nullified the Message to Hazrat Daud (as), the Message to Hazrat Eesa (as) nullified the Message to Hazrat Musa (as), and the Message to our Holy Prophet (saw) nullified the Message to Hazrat Eesa (as). And after this there shall be no prophets, and this is one of the uncompromising tenet of being a Muslim.
Every nation on earth had been sent a Prophet. According to an estimate, a number around 124,000 is mentioned, however this is not authenticated by Islam. It’s a riwayyat (something told from so and so) but a strong riwayyat nonetheless.
Not each and every one has been mentioned in the Quran. The most prominent among these have been those that were sent the Message, and mostly those are mentioned that were sent to the children of Israel. Why those mentioned that were sent to the children of Israel? Because the children of Israel were the most cherished and beloved of all Allah :swt:'s creations, and some Prophets they disbelieved in, some they chased away and some they killed. So as a lesson, those Prophets, tthe treatments they received and the lives they led are mentioned in the Quran as a lesson.
Look in Deuteronomy 18:18 where Musa :as: mentions the coming of a Prophet who would be “like unto him”. And whatever that prophet would say, would be the words of Allah :swt: “and He would call to account” those that would not follow him.
People think that Hazrat Musa (as) is referring to Hazrat Eesa (as), but this is not true. Why? Answer these questions then:
Between Hazrat Eesa (as) and our Holy Prophet (saw):
Who was born with the conjunction of man and woman?
Who was a shepherd?
Who had married?
Who had children?
Who was chased by enemies and evicted from his place of birth?
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*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
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Why not? What makes you think He can't change His mind? it's His universe, He can do whatever He wants...
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May be He didn't change His mind at all, may be because He knows whats gonna happen to this and that, so He had all the plans that at this time when this happens this Messenger will be sent and when his followers go astray they will be sent this Messenger and follow these codes.
quoting you, how do you know, he wont change his mind again? isn’t this his universe?? maybe tommorow he can decide wednesday as a holy day…send a new prophet with latest version of windows!!