Question about Muhammad

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Dear Fatehahmad,

Upon reading this I have a question for you. If I told you that pigs could fly. And you said "No way, and took me to show me a pig and that they do not have wings and that it was impossible for them to fly." Then I went in a fit and wrote a book about how pigs can fly and how anybody that does not believe as such is a fool for everyone knows that their wings are hidden and that God created gardens and waterfalls and the stars and all this is proof that pigs could fly. Would you then believe me when I pointed to my book that proclaims how pigs can fly and my proof is that God made waterfalls, and this marvelous book which I wrote? I should hope not, but I am expected to believe the exact same kind of reasoning as to Muhammad's prophetship.

Which leads me to another point. If the validity of a person's testimony is the question at hand how can you point to the writings of that person and say there is the proof. I understand after reading surah 25 how you all think that I am blaspheming holy God because I could even raise the question of his validity. Which by his writing seemed to make him pretty darn mad that anyone dare question him.
"Or (Why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment? The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched." Surah 25:8

To me, I am having a hard time getting over the fact that a supposed prophet of God could steal his adopted son's wife(You don't need to explain your views here I know you don't see it that way and I know you have a surah as proof). And to make it within the law a new Surah appears.

I am also curious if someone could please tell me aeysha's age at the time of her marriage?

How come when Muhammad is requested proof that he is a prophet he responds in a fit of rage that anyone who does not believe him is wicked?. Does a man of God respond as such? doesn't he gernerally offer some verifiable proof. Moses had the cane that turned into the snake not to mention the signs in egypt. Jesus did the many miracles and prophecy spoke of his coming. I have yet to see of any prophecy that fortells of Muhammad's comming.

But this by its very nature gives Muslim believers a contradiction, for if they give proof of prophecy in the Bible or the Torah then they are conceding that the Bible or Torah is true. Following point A (Bible used as truth)to point B (Bible must be true for it to be valid proof of Muhammad) leads to a therefore of Muhammad must be a false teacher because the Bible clearly teaches in direct contradiction to what Muhammad teaches. Example taken from

John
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it
lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every
reason?"
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the
Creator made them male and female,'
5 and said,For this reason a man will leave his father and
mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one
flesh'?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has
joined together, let man not separate."
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give
his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives
because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from
the beginning.

But if they don't have proof then the only thing that stands as Muhammads proof is Muhammad's Quran which can not be proof in and of itself because that is circular reasoning.

It has been my experience that only a man with no proof becomes adament when his authority is questioned. Why else make a smoke screen, unless you have something to hide.

I'm sorry I can not just believe any story unquestioningly. I have never approached faith that way, and never will be able to.

42

hi lyrixforu...

ive been following this thread... ur questions are very interesting :) i just wanted to add, even us muslims are made to ask questions and not follow blindly, if we dont understand something we are made to read more and more until we do.. in regards to the bible, us muslims do believe in it.. but rather the Old Testatament.

43

i found this very interesting article.. its a bit long, but indeed a good read (sorry of it offends anyone)

Was Muhammad a Prophet?

44

Mr. lyrixforu,

If you would care to read the Holy Quran, you would find that it is incumbent on Muslims to believe in the scriptures of all the previous prophets. But we also believe the God has never promised that this scriptures would always be saved from any kind of change. So we do consider that there are some man-made changes in the Bible. But that doesn't make it for Muslims to reject it all together.

For a prophecy about the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) from Bible:
In Deuteronomy 18:17-19, Moses (AS) prophesied:

"And the Lord said unto me. They have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

The foretold prophet in this prophecy was not Jesus Christ (AS), nor any other Israelite prophet, because none of them ever claimed to be the prophet promised here.

45

Hi,

Deuteronomy 18:17-19
How do you know that prophecy wasn't referring to Joshua, Isiah, or every other prophet. If it was just concerning one prophet then why does it further go on to explain how we will know if a prophet is false. Maybe he knew there would be many false prophets.

Why is it that Muhammad invents knew reasons that prove a prophet is true. When the test is already given. All he has to do is submit to it. But no, he makes a new test and if you make the test is that not like the right hand cheating from the left hand.

Notice in the Torah that it is not actually the prophet who gives the test but Moses. Future prophets must submit to the test to be considered true prophets. But when Muhammad is asked to submit to this test his response was 25th Chapter of the Quran. A clear reluctance to be submitted to the true test. It only means to me that their must have been something to hide. If what you say is true that he was a prophet then why the charade. Why not just point to the prophecys that came true and prophesy of the future. Instead he gets mad. He doesn't even give prophecy in 25th chapter that will come true in his lifetime. The only true test of a prophet is prophecy that comes true and it must come true all the time if the person is a prophet.

The test verses 21 & 22.

Deuteronomy 18: 17-22
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

If he was a prophet he would not have had to write the 25th Chapter to cover his butt. Thank you for pointing out the 25th chapter to me as it only affirms my belief that he did not have prophetship. Sorry if I offend you but I think it only proves his inability to meet the test.

Peace,
Barry

46

slightly confused… or maybe my ignorance, but i thought the prophet, Muhammad, did not write the Quran himself but that it was revealed to him via Gabriel… so why would he be writing surahs to protect his word? lyrixs do u think that Muhammad wrote the Quran himself? im so confused :konfused:

47

Sorry my bad,

It was not surah 25 but Surah 21. He simply refuses to give a sign.

Peace,
Barry

48

My Bad again

I meant chapter 21 not Surah

Peace,
Barry

49

Hi Sadzzz,

There are only two possiblities either he wrote it and he used it to will himself out of trouble time and again or it was written by God. In either case it gets him out of trouble more than once.

I'm trying to get to the truth, as I have said I don't take things for granted.

Peace,
Barry

50

hi lyrix,

to my understanding.. the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel, and it was only till after the prophet's death that the Quran was actually compiled. It's ok, i dont think any of us like to follow religion blindly, we are all trying to find answers as well... this is was good way of learning :)

51

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lyrixforu: *

I'm trying to get to the truth,

[/QUOTE]

o yes and we r all angels with cute little wings.... :Pretty:

52

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lyrixforu: *
Hi,

Deuteronomy 18:17-19
How do you know that prophecy wasn't referring to Joshua, Isiah, or every other prophet. If it was just concerning one prophet then why does it further go on to explain how we will know if a prophet is false. Maybe he knew there would be many false prophets.

Why is it that Muhammad invents knew reasons that prove a prophet is true. When the test is already given. All he has to do is submit to it. But no, he makes a new test and if you make the test is that not like the right hand cheating from the left hand.

Notice in the Torah that it is not actually the prophet who gives the test but Moses. Future prophets must submit to the test to be considered true prophets. But when Muhammad is asked to submit to this test his response was 25th Chapter of the Quran. A clear reluctance to be submitted to the true test. It only means to me that their must have been something to hide. If what you say is true that he was a prophet then why the charade. Why not just point to the prophecys that came true and prophesy of the future. Instead he gets mad. He doesn't even give prophecy in 25th chapter that will come true in his lifetime. The only true test of a prophet is prophecy that comes true and it must come true all the time if the person is a prophet.

The test verses 21 & 22.

Deuteronomy 18: 17-22
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

If he was a prophet he would not have had to write the 25th Chapter to cover his butt. Thank you for pointing out the 25th chapter to me as it only affirms my belief that he did not have prophetship. Sorry if I offend you but I think it only proves his inability to meet the test.

Peace,
Barry
[/QUOTE]

AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.......

"READ! IN THE NAME OF THE LORD AND CHERISHER, WHO CREATED-
CREATED MAN, FROM A (MERE) CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD:

READ! AND THY LORD IS MOST BOUNTIFUL,-
HE WHO TAUGHT (THE USE OF) THE PEN,

TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH HE KNEW NOT".
(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Muhummed which
now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.

53

Question No.1

Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (Jn.10:30),
therefore, is not Jesus the same, or,
"co-equal" in status with his Father?
Answer No.1

In Greek, heis' meansone' numerically (masc.)
hen' meansone' in unity or essence (neut.)
Here the word used by John is hen' and notheis'.
The marginal notes in New American Standard Bible (NASB) reads;
one - (Lit.neuter) a unity, or, one essence.

If one wishes to argue that the word `hen' supports their claim
for Jesus being "co-equal" in status with his Father, please
invite his/her attention to the following verse:

Jesus said: "And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given
to them (disciples); that they may be one,
just as we are one." (John 17:22).

If he/she was to consider/regard/believe the Father and Jesus Christ
to be "one" meaning "co-equal" in status on the basis of John 10:30,
then that person should also be prepared to consider/regard/believe
"them" - the disciples of Jesus, to be "co-equal" in status with
the Father and Jesus ("just as we are one") in John 17:22.
I have yet to find a person that would be prepared to make the
disciples (students) "co-equal" in status with the Father or Jesus.

The unity and accord was of the authorized divine message that
originated from the Father, received by Jesus and finally
passed on to the disciples. Jesus admitted having accomplished
the work which the Father had given him to do. (Jn.17:4)

Hot Tip: (precise and pertinent)

Jesus said: "I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
(Jn.14:28). This verse unequivocally refutes the claim by any one for
Jesus being "co-equal" in status with his Father.

54

According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans...but Jesus was flesh and blood.
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

Man, these BOOKS are full of contradictions.

55

brother I’ve been reading this for some time now. first u mentioned that u want some proof weather Mohommad(SWS) is in other holy scriptures. here is a website for u to see that on. http://www.beconvinced.com/RELIGION/BIBLEONMUHAM.htm

u can make a conclusion for ur self, I don’t want to emotinally put ne thing in ur brain, as i can see that u r only looking for logic. and when it comes to logic, a man like u should have noticed that such a book could not have possibly be written by ne man himself unless revealed by a divine source. i don’t know if u know ne thing about science in the quran. if u don’t i would highly suggest u take a quick peek at
it-is-truth.com
U wanted logic, and this is the most of that. and as far as peole looking for logic in religion, i don’t know about other religions, but Islam clearly says that it is a book for the believers, not those who need logic. some things we just cannot understand, and that is when faith comes in place. plzzz do understand that ISlam or Allah do not need us. Islam was sent down bc we needed Islam. it was for our benefit. True muslims don’t follow ISlam jsut cuz it is logically correct, but bc they have blind faith in it, and that is highly valued by Allah. At the end u make the choice, of letting go of ISlam bc of some things that don’t make sense to u(maybe bc ur human mind can’t comprehend them) or to keep it bc u do have faith in Allah and will believe his word, bc u believe in the punishment, and would ratehr not take that risk. At the end of the day, u r responsible for ur actions and me mine. or If u would rather choose not to follow it bc of somethings u cannot understand( for which I think u were given very clear explanations to)than it is in my opinion ur loss. it may not be the case in ur way. however if the previous website is not enough logic for u to understand that Mohammad(SWS) was a real prophet, than I will try to thinhk of other answers to the best of my ability. however an other website u might wanna hit is askimam.com, they will answer ur question within 24 hrs. hope that could help.

56

Reham1, Sadzz, armughal, and anybody else I might have missed,

I'm not at all opposed to disecting the Bible, if you want to, and checking out any thing that appears amiss. Though I am not sure this is the thread to do this in.... Right now I am not at leisure to do so, but maybe sometime tomorrow or the next day, as I need to get some work done.

I am not an expert in any religion but I am sure willing to share my views and observations. I think the one thing that happens the most often when anyone looks at a religious book is that it gets taken out of context. And by no means am I any better than anyone else, so I am sure I have seen things in the Quran and said things out of context. If so I am sorry, and please try to correct the error in my understanding. I think it quite possible that parts of your citings are taken out of context as well, Reham1 but I have not had the chance to disect and see.

Blessings,
Barry

57

Hi Best

Quote:

scriptures. here is a website for u to see that on. http://www.beconvinced.com/RELIGION/BIBLEONMUHAM.htm

I’m going to look up this page tomorrow. But in the mean time I wanted to throw out this thought. You said that It must be taken on faith at some point right. Could that not also be said of being a Christian? Do you think that every follower of Christ believes 100% of the time that he rose up on the cross to pay for man’s sins. I assure you the answer is no. Hopefully the religion which one choses after much consideration will be true, but I assure you faith applies accross the board to all religions.

Blessings Brothers, Sisters,
Barry

58

[/QUOTE]
You said that It must be taken on faith at some point right. Could that not also be said of being a Christian? Do you think that every follower of Christ believes 100% of the time that he rose up on the cross to pay for man's sins. I assure you the answer is no. Hopefully the religion which one choses after much consideration will be true, but I assure you faith applies accross the board to all religions.

Blessings Brothers, Sisters,
Barry
[/QUOTE]

there is absolutely no doubt in this. that is why i told u, that u make the choice at the end. what religion do u have the most faith in? what religion makes the most sense to u? i understand that God, whoever u may call him as, should create the perfect religion with the perfect example, with the perfect book that has no contradictions in it. what book contains no contradictions? I believe it is the quran. I don't know of ne proof against that. nothing i know in the Quran contradicts ne thing. As far as the prophet(SWS) having more than 4 wives, well the Quran gives him permission to do so. weather or not there is surah justifying his actions, u cannot say that he did ne thing against the Quran's teachings. Look at it whatever way u want: that Quran justifies the Prophet (SWS) or that the Prophet(sws) did nothing against the teachings of the Quran, there is no flaw in the religion when discussing logic. weather or not the Prophet(SWS) was the most special, is another discussion. persoanlly I know that it says in the Quran that all prophets r equal in the eyes of Allah(i don't have the quote for this, sorry). All prophets were diff, and given diff powers, and miracles. the powers/miracles were not their own creation, but rather given to them by Allah to perform, kinda like the Quran. Mohommad(SWS) was given i the quran, maybe his power was that he did nothing to go against the Quran. I know one of his miracles was teh Quran itself. Prophets are humans, i understand that. but they r still diff. I think it was hazrat soloman, whose body did not decay. that does not apply to ne other human, and there is no proof of that happening to ne other prophet in the Quran either. What Im trying to say is that all Prophets were diff, I don't know weather Mohammad(sws) was the most special or not, but that still doesn't deny teh perfectionism of Islam. And, it makes sense bc the perfect God must have the perfect religion. and islam when understood is perfect, and according to the teachings of ISlam, it's example, Mohommad(SWS) was also perfect. maybe not in the kaffirs eyes, but as A Muslims he was as good as they can get.

59

I have some questions to those of you who are criticizing the Prophet :Saw:

From the same source you found out how many wives Muhammed :saw: had - The Ahadiths

Does it tell you that the Prophet ever mistreated his wives?

Do you know that in the same source it is said that

  • wives of the prophet were given such a high status that they were regarded as The Mothers of believers?

  • he was such a nice man that women would offer themseleves to him for marriage but he would refuse?

  • during his times certain tribes would offer him to keep dozens of beautiful young women for sexual pleasure but he would refuse?

  • He could have had more and young beautiful wives but if he was so lustful then “why” did he marry those old widows/divorcees and slaves?

^^ How do you guys understand the above facts?

60

Hi Best,

I must grant you that according to the Quran Muhammad does seem to fit within the realm of a perfect prophet. So I can see how a Muslim could believe so. But that, for me, still leaves too many questions.

For example, why did Muhammad refuse to fit himself to the test of a prophet given by Moses in the Torah. I don't buy the assertion that the Quran is itself the proof of Muhammad's prophetship, as I am holding to the test given in the Torah stated earlier. And my assumption still remains that if Muhammad had nothing to hide he would not have been so irritated as to respond in rage, which can be seen in the Quran. If he was not in a rage why is he so hostile to anyone that would question his authority so much so that they are basically damned to hell. This all is riding primarliy on what I read earlier that Muslims believe in the Torah.

Another example, yes reading the Quran justifies everything Muhammad did, if not glorifying it. But why is it that time and again we see Surahs made for Muhammad's desires or wants when the time of conflict is at hand. for instance the Surah/s relating to wedding of his adopted son's wife. Show me what other prophet in the Torah is given prophecy explicitly pertaining to his own desires. All the other prophets are given prophecys pertaining to the people. But a good many of Muhammad's prophecys are expressly pertaining to himself. For example, the marrying of his son's wife. No one can even kid me that it had nothing to do with sex. In saying so am I to believe that poor Muhammad was coerced into having sex with his wives? I don't think so, as Allah even adresses Muhammad wanting to enjoy his wives, in one Surah.

Anyhow, I guess I can see why Muslims believe what they do but I still find it sort of amazing considering these hard questions I ask and others have asked. Does that make sense to anyone?

Bleasings to you all,
Barry

Ps. Off topic to this reply. I still want to read and respond to all those other things I said I would do but I really need to get some work done today so that will have to come another day.