This may be a stupid question…but from what i notice…punishments in Islam seem to be an action rather than a process…so an adulterer will be stoned…a fornicator will be lashed and a thief having his hand chopped off…
So i have a couple of questions…Punishment seems to be an action but do we have any kind of prison system in Islam?..
And also are punishments the same in every case…so is armed robbery and petty theft treated in the same manner…
And say a repeat fornicator…does his punishment change as he has shown no signs of rehabilitation…
How much power does a judge have to inflict punishment also?..
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
u r wrong, armed robbery and theft do not have similar punishments....
and prison system is not an Islamic one....
if u look at it closely u will find that a prison is a very severe punishment and almost rips off all the rights of human from the prisoner and is an added burden on the state's economy....
and at the end what purpose does a prison serve????
in Islam the punishment is given not only as a reminder to the criminal but also to the rest of the society....
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
So i have a couple of questions...Punishment seems to be an action but do we have any kind of prison system in Islam?...
And also are punishments the same in every case...so is armed robbery and petty theft treated in the same manner...
And say a repeat fornicator...does his punishment change as he has shown no signs of rehabilitation...
How much power does a judge have to inflict punishment also?...
This is typical tribal stuff. Cut off hands, cut off noses, stone to death, or (my favorite from the Taliban) death by having a wall fall on someone. This is the kind of punishment most, if not all, religious books prescribe. It is all backwards and reflects the times in which they were written.
Crimes are never absolute, they are always subjective. Prisons reflect modern thought, moderation and rationality. Everything eles is a hold back from tribalism.
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Did u know that in the year 2006 ,an incident happen in our great country pakistan a father cut her 18year old daughter's nose with the help of her husband in multan . The reason was he suspected that she was having an affiar but in reality it was all big misunderstanding... wow isn't it awesome that we belong to a country where there are religious fanatics who practice a freaking 140000000000000000 year old laws just to protect their family values....knowing that there is a state law for that kinda stuff. *
*Afsoos sud afsoos...
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
there is no relgious practice of cutting off noses buddy at least in islam...check 4:34, it gives guidelines when you think the wife is doing some extra marital things.
Saudi Arabia is the only country which has sharia in place, look at the crime rate there, and see for yourself what islamic law can do.
I dont know about Taliban, but good riddens to people who misunderstand the Quran, and bring bad name to muslims.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
Armughal...
Ok so what is the difference between armed robbery and petty theft punishment wise in Islam?...
As for Prison...so am i correct in saying that all punsihsments are actions and not a process...so if i commit zinha...after iv had my lashes will i not have probation or will i not be monitored more closely etc...
Also no-one has answered what happens to repeat offenders?...
And as for prison...in theory it is supposed to protect society from criminals and rehabilitate them...it fails miserably agreed...so does Islamic offer the alterntaive in that it eliminates through capital punishment for instance?...and does Islam offer any means of rehabilitating criminals?...
On the subject of rehabilitation...how does Islam deal with drug addicts...Pakistan for instance has 1/4 of the worlds heroin addicts...does Islam attempt to rehabilitate them or does it suggest punishment for them?
Also how does Islam deal with those who have mental or psychological problems...do we have things like mental asylums? etc as my understanding is these people are not sinful hence cant be punished...
LightBearer...
I assume its from puberty cos you are responsible for your actions after that age...
NameInUse...
Id like to correct you...Islam doesnt subscribe to cutting off noses or throwing walls onto people...it does subscribe to stoning adulterers and cutting off thieves hands...so in your world that may be barbaric...but then in your world of moderation and rationality dont you have the electric chair...
When we think of American law...we dont solely focus on the death penalty...Islam has a death penalty...but there is a lot more depth to the system just as there is to yours...and that is information i am attempting to obtain...
So before you criticise Muslims for having the death penalty...understand you are a hypocryte...and just understand that whilst i believe in a system made by god...you believe in a system created by someone just as fallible and prone to error as you and me...
Afridi786...
Saudi is not shariah bro...just cos you enfore a punishment system based somewhat on Islam doesnt mean your system on a whole is Islamic...
And as for crime rate...At the end of the day stats are nonsense...Low crime rate can be an inidcation of low crime or it can be an indication of nothing being reported or dealt with...how may rapes do you think actually get dealt with when you need four witnesses...Low crime rate isnt an indication of less crime...Its just less reported...
Ramyssysix...
Living under Islam will no doubt help...we are all products of society...so in a society where your media lives breathes Islam...and your systems are Islamic...it certainly will help create Islamic people no?...
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
NameInUse...
Id like to correct you...Islam doesnt subscribe to cutting off noses or throwing walls onto people...it does subscribe to stoning adulterers and cutting off thieves hands...so in your world that may be barbaric...but then in your world of moderation and rationality dont you have the electric chair...
When we think of American law...we dont solely focus on the death penalty...Islam has a death penalty...but there is a lot more depth to the system just as there is to yours...and that is information i am attempting to obtain...
So before you criticise Muslims for having the death penalty...understand you are a hypocryte...and just understand that whilst i believe in a system made by god...you believe in a system created by someone just as fallible and prone to error as you and me...
I don't believe in the death penality. As for cutting off noses, I was simply compounding all theocratic "judicial systems" as one. Which they most certainly are. What religious ajudication suggests in not justice, but revenge. It is the law of the jungle. The taliban killed someone by a wall falling on him, they said it was part of their religion. Stoning to death is a barbaric act. Adultery is a personal matter, not a matter of society.
Religions prescribe a world of black and white where justice is absolute. That is not the real world. In the real world, everything is grey.
Moreover, killing someone does not in anyway benefit society. One should be made to pay for taking someone's like by forfeitting their own and becoming a ward of the state. One should do hard labor for the rest of their to repay society for what was lost. But this is a moot point.
Islamic, or any theocratic judicial system, is a throw back to the tribalism in which they were born.
Someone suggested that Saudi Arabia has a low crime rate. This is a perfect example. What crime rate is being referred to here? Saudi Arabia is a hot bed for terrorism. The poor may be forced live piously, but the rich sheiks come to Vegas and live it up with whores and gamblers. Again, tribalism only inflicts on the poor and weak. That is no justice.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
I think there are certain major differences in the belief and philosophy of muslims and non-muslims (ones who do not believe in religion as a message from Allah). First and foremost for a muslim is since we believe Quran to be Allahs message to us we do not question the wisdom in it because to us it is like questioning Allah and doubting his wisdom. This is something that becomes clearer to a muslim each passing day as the society and sciences progress. There are certain things in the Quran that we cannot understand because we have not advanced enough to grasp the wisdom behind it. Even if we did its still about obedience to Allah. This is how Allah tests us.
Now as for the punishments like you mentioning not believing in capital punishment. The punishments Allah has prescribed for certain things have instant affects on the society we live in. They are meant to deter the soceity from indulging in it. Allah has made it clear the things he does not approve of and dislikes. So as a muslim we have stay away from those things. If Allah does not approve of it then who are we to contradict it. After all we are the creation of Allah and he has set rules for us. We cannot value life more than Allah does. If he has prescribed capital punishment for his creation in certain matters it is based on insights he has into his creation i.e. the way they interact, the we way think, the way we visualize, the way we perceive etc etc. Capital punishment in Islam for Adulteres is only for the married couple not for unmarried people. The act of punishing is to preserve the moral fabric of a society and to instill fear into people so they abstain from indulging in punitive acts. Let me put it this way when you are not afraid of something then you venture out to do it again and again. This act may be good or bad though. The act of ending ones life has different meanings and preceptions depending on the context in which they happen. It is an act of murder when it happens without the right of taking someones life. Like you said stoning to death is Barbaric, would somebody in the right mind or someone who is fearful of Allah want to go through it, I'm sure no. The punishment from Allah also signifies how disliked such an act is for him. God has made clear to stay away from certain things and you are are saying I don't care and to reduce the impact of it we have come up with these other systems of punishment. You are focused on the fact that the punishment is cruel and painful but you completely skipped over the fact that what are doing is wrong also then. How does capital punihsment harm the society provided the sentencing is justified i.e. like it was proven that the person killed somebody or was proven to be an adulterer.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
What happens if after a capital punishment (or cutting the nose for instance) it is realized that the person who was punished actually did not commit the crime?
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Which is why truthful eye witness accounts are needed. There is nothing against cross examination. Punishments do not have to be instant until they have been ascertained.
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That's impossible because there were witnesses of high moral standard of course.
It's tribalism. It is absolute and leaves no room for error in judgement or dispensation of revenge.
The punishments Allah has prescribed for certain things have instant affects on the society we live in. They are meant to deter the soceity from indulging in it. Allah has made it clear the things he does not approve of and dislikes.
There is something terribly wrong with what you say. If justice was about likes and dislikes of a divine figure, then why allow absolution by compensation? I mean, why allow blood money? That is extremely tribal. It basically condemns poor without any such recourse, while the rich may only need to part with some cash. Moreover, what about trading girls in the same manner? It's all tribalism, and this is the remains of tribalism in the Arabian peninsula.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
Can you tell how many witnesses are needed?
Anyway I think these laws should be modified as they are really tribal. They might have been good at some point of time in history in arabian countries, but today they do not make any sense.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
It's tribalism. It is absolute and leaves no room for error in judgement or dispensation of revenge.
There is something terribly wrong with what you say. If justice was about likes and dislikes of a divine figure, then why allow absolution by compensation? I mean, why allow blood money? That is extremely tribal. It basically condemns poor without any such recourse, while the rich may only need to part with some cash. Moreover, what about trading girls in the same manner? It's all tribalism, and this is the remains of tribalism in the Arabian peninsula.
I think you did understand what I said. The divine figure has set some basic rules upon which we should build our justice system. The concepts of justice come from WHO??? Our creator .... how do you decide what is right and what is wrong. Being fallible humans we can always change our perspectives of these terms to suit our interests, which is why we as humans should be following the basic rules God has setup for us and not be inventing our own rules which totally conflict with Gods.
Well as for the blood money it is not tribal it is actually an optional thing in Islam when a murder occurs. Note on the word optional, it does not rule put capital punishment should the crime be proven. The plaintiff can agree to have the capital punishment carried out, or demand a compensation in blood money or even forgive the person.
Trading girls has no basis in Islam. It definitely has roots in tribalism though. Do not confuse tribal laws and customs with the Islamic guidelines. Systems can be erected based on Islamic guidelines whereas tribal laws cannot become the foundation of widespread systems.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
Anyway I think these laws should be modified as they are really tribal. They might have been good at some point of time in history in arabian countries, but today they do not make any sense.
I will confirm the witness count for you later. Don't want to give misinformation since I don't remember the exact number.
There is nothing tribal in Islamic laws. Everything originated on a small scale which now resembles a tribe. There was no concept of statehood in those times so the law was the tribal law. Each tribe more or less constituted its own city in a sense. In Islam there are guidelines and there are certain absolutes. Capital punishment is an absolute when the crime is proven. There are no variations to it other than blood money or forgiveness. Rehabilitation is mankinds substitute for repentance to Allah. I think peoples perspectives vary based on how seriously they view their relationship with Allah. The lesser regard you have for the word of Allah the more likely you are to justify these alternatives. The lesser fear you have of meeting Allah after death the more likely you are to institute laws and customs that value existence of life over the cause of life.
Re: Question about Islam and Punishment Systems...
USResident u said there is nuthing tribal in islamic law..how would u define stoning to death? Its purely a trible act believe it or not.There is a incident in bible in which a woman was accused of adultry the cleric gave the verdict of stoning the woman to death.Upon hearing that jesus said he doesn't support that act but if its a town law then those people should step forward to stone her who believe that they have never ever committed a single sin in their whole life. And the result was no one was able to step forward. *
*The reason i narrated that incident is to tell u that stoning is a trible act , a very gruesome act. And no one should support it in 20th century.