”The gist of our faith. is: La e’la ha ill lal’lah Muhammad’ur Rasulullah. There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Our belief, which we hold in this life here on earth and to which we will continue to adhere firmly till the time that we pass on to the next world, is that our spiritual leader and master, Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be on him is the Seal of the Prophets and the Best of the Messengers. At his hands religion has been perfected and blessing of Allah has been consummated which lead man to the right path and further on to God Himself. We hold this positive belief with absolute certainty that the Holy Quran is the seal of all Divine books and not an iota can be added to or subtracted from its prescribed teachings, inhibitions, commands and injunctions. There will be no revelation or word from God, which may amend or abrogate or change or alter any of the injunctions of the Holy Quran. If anyone subscribes to such views, in our opinion, he ceases to belong to the body of believers and becomes an infidel thereby”.
Then can you tell me what makes one an Ahmedi/Qadiyani? I know my version of the difference, but i would like to hear it from you.
Khan Sahab, if you can’t answer something, it doesn’t mean someone is down looking at you.
Belief is something not to be kept in hearts; it must be substantiated factual from all sides; So that it can be comprehended before its application.
- If you can’t prove your ideology, you cant convey its spirit.
There is no difference between a Blind Follower of a faith and a member of a Cult Group.
Xtreme, be relevant svp.
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited November 13, 2000).]
Wadi, this is out of debate but let me overlap my reply for you;
A1.) Be it Ahadith, Quran or the sermons of the Holy Prophet(sa), they are absolutely not wrong. Ahmadis believe-in and respect them with all their hearts. The thing is, Islam, which is the most misunderstood religion of the world, is interpreted incorrectly by its followers as well. for example as the kalima above.
Holy Prophet indeed is the last Prophet in the sense that He is the LAST LAW BEARING PROPHET, no new law or book or code of life can come after him. The religion is perfected.
Mosses(as) laid the foundation of a religion on the basis of LAWS he received by Allah. After him, Allah blessed the Hebrew nation by sending many prophets. It is noteworthy that none of the subsequent prophet formed a new religion; in fact they came to renew the same message of Mosses, which has been corrupted and disfigured with time. So all the reformers after Mosses were in short were sub-ordinate prophets of him.
Similarly, sub-ordinate Prophets can come under the supervision of Mohammad(sa) as well. Though they cannot form a new religion or law. And since the Book is also in perfect condition so there is no need for a new book either.
My debate with the opponents is on the same issue to Prove from Quran that no new prophet can come after Mohammad(sa). I insist on Quran first for the reason that it has answer to all the questions, all the prophecies and indeed has a perfect and untouched unspoiled text. (leave the ahadith for now)
A2.) About Mirza Ghulam Ahmad: He claimed that he is the same Imam Mehdi, prophesized by the beloved Holy Prophet(sa). His claim is based on revelation he received from Allah (swt), for which Allah has shown numerous heavenly signs, miracles and proofs. (no need to discuss them on this thread).
Since he claims that Allah appointed him, then I think its only Allah who can validate his status and not the maulvis or scholars or other brand names.
Do you think Allah is dead? Nay! he is still alive, ask him he won’t misguide you.
Back to discussion…. take your time and substantiate your viewpoints.
-Repeatedly people posts message that says Ahamdies are non-mulims. I have seen many refrences from otehr sect of Islam declaring each other non-muslims too. SO IS DECLARING AHMADIES NON-MUSLIM (KAFIR) is new in Muslim world??
-I see the argumnet of "Last Prophet" was all round the word "Khatim". Both Sides interpret Kathim defferently. I think First We need to present argument and agree what "Khatim" means.
**
X_Communist
yOU become a muslim wehn you believe truly in the KALIMA meaning submitting to Allah and taking Mohammed to be his last prophet......(*keyword being Mohammed in regard to your "submitting to Allah ONLY")
CoolDude
There is no god but Allah and Muhammed (PBUH) is Allah's last messenger.
**
X-Communist and Cooldude
isn't Kalma is submission of unity of God as One and Only God and Mohammed (PBUH) is his messanger. Where in Kalma it says that Mohammed is Last of Prophet???
Please Leave Islam and Kalma as it is and do not change the meanings of it.
ALSO SINCE DAYS OF PROPHET (PBUH) KALMA WAS TAKEN AS ONE'S SUBMISSION AND TO BE BECOME MULIM.
IN MY OPINION IF QADIANI/AHMADIES SAY KALMA AND SAY PARYERS AND DO EVERTHING AS MUSLIM, THEN NO ONE HAS RIGHT TO DECLARE THEM NON-MUSLIM.
ONE MORE THING.....WHY WE AS MUSLIM HAS LAW TO STOP AHMADIES FROM PERFROMING THEIR RELIGIOUS ACTIVITES.??
I have lot to say and lot to read but I am in hurry so I will post some later.
"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"
[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited November 14, 2000).]
I have only one mouth with one side(if you know what I mean!)
I have no Idea what you mean by this!
So your point is that I should be more tollerant to Sunnis, Right?
I would like the post(not for Watcher)where I have siad something “wrong” about Sunnis!
But if thou says so I will try to be more tollerant (how? :confused
OUR LORD! WE HAVE INDEED HEARD THE VOICE OF A CRIER(MESSENGER)CALLING TO THE FAITH: “BELIVE IN YOUR LORD” SO WE BELIVED. OUR LORD! FORGIVE US THEN OUR SINS, AND REMOVE FROM US OUR EVIL DEEDS, AND CAUSE US DIE ALONG WITH THE VIRTUOUS
Isalm = submission Only to Allah! Not Mohammed(PBUH)So as far as thats concerned Ahmadies are muslims!
OUR LORD! WE HAVE INDEED HEARD THE VOICE OF A CRIER(MESSENGER)CALLING TO THE FAITH: "BELIVE IN YOUR LORD" SO WE BELIVED. OUR LORD! FORGIVE US THEN OUR SINS, AND REMOVE FROM US OUR EVIL DEEDS, AND CAUSE US DIE ALONG WITH THE VIRTUOUS
The referred statement of the Qur’an can be seen in Al-Ahza’b 33: 40. As shall be clear that the word used by the Qur’an in this verse is “Kha’tam al-Nabiyyi’n”, not “Kha’tim al-Nabiyyi’n”. There is a difference in the meanings of the words “kha’tam” and “kha’tim”. The word “Kha’tim” is used in the Arabic, as well as the Urdu language and sometimes even the English language (as in the phrase “the last word” meaning fashionable, advanced etc.), idiomatically to mean “the best”, although its ("kha’tim’s) literal meaning is still “the one that ends” or “the last”. For instance, if we say “kha’tim al-shu`ara” (lit: “the last of the poets”) it would normally be construed to mean: “the best poet”. But this is not the case of the word “Kha’tam”, which has been used by the Qur’an in the referred verse. “Kha’tam” means “seal”, or even more precisely, the tool used to seal something is known as “kha’tam” in the Arabic language. The word “seal” is not used in the Arabic language to imply “the best”.
In view of the above explanation, it should be quite clear that the words used by the Qur’an cannot be construed to mean “the best”, on the contrary, these words clearly imply the meaning: “the seal of prophethood”.
The “seal of prophethood” can only mean either of the following:
*(i)*Mohammad (pbuh) is the prophet that has finally sealed the system of prophethood, which had been initiated by Allah through Adam; or
*(ii)*Mohammad (pbuh) is that prophet of Allah that holds the seal of prophethood, i.e., no one can be called the prophet of Allah unless Mohammad (pbuh) has put his seal of prophethood on that person. Thus, Moses, Jesus, Abraham and all others that we know as prophets of Allah, hold this position because Mohammad (pbuh) has called them the prophets of Allah and thereby put his seal of prophethood on them. In the same manner, if some prophet is to come after Mohammad (pbuh) he shall only be considered for such prophethood, if Mohammad (pbuh) has put his seal of prophethood on him (obviously, there is no such person).
In my opinion, the meaning more coherent with the context of the referred verse is the first one. Therefore, in my opinion, the word used by the Qur’an in this verse is quite clear in implying that Mohammad is the last prophet (not just “the best”).
I hope this helps. In case any aspect of my answer remains unclear, please feel free in writing back to me.
Regards
The Learner
I hope you found the above information interesting.
The scholar above explained the meaning of Khatam and Khatim in well comprehensible way. Below that he gave two-point theory to elaborate the meaning of the word. The former point definitely lacks any rational move while the later is quite consistent and balanced.
If the scholar considers the opinion (1) to be more reasonable then there should be some supporting text in Quran. He must have elaborated in the same milieu.
The second point is very much in harmony with the Quranic teachings. It says if anyone wants to validate the claimant of Prophethood, then the Seal of the Mohammad is the only measuring criteria. One must have qualities of Prophet Mohammad in him to be considered as a Prophet. For example a CHILD must inherit his FATHER’s features to be considered lawful and legitimate. Similar is the case with All the prophets(children), they must have qualities of Mohammad(father) to be considered as a true Prophets. This is the true meaning of the word “Khatam-un Nabeyaeen”.
The meaning is further enhanced if the verse is understood in the same framework.viz.
[quote]
Muhammad is not the FATHER(physical) of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of ALLAH, and the FATHER(spiritual) of the Prophets and ALLAH has full knowledge of all things.
[/quote]
If we interpret the verse this way, it is found to be more consistent with the other Quranic text. On the other hand, the word “LAST” not only fits very inappropriately in the verse but also is very incompatible with Quran and Ahadith, both.
Shah Jahan:, your views are quite loyal about Islam. Thou both of us share different ideologies, but the direction is still the same. Submission to Allah and obedience of His Prophet is Islam. Considering First and Last doesn’t play any crucial role on the canvas of religion. Does it?
Chonkee Daar: if I may request you to please flow with the thread. We are discussing Islamic point of view of Mohammad being LAST, please shed some light on this issue in the light of Quran. (if you can).
For you query, I have already mentioned this many time that I do consider Mohammad(sa) as Khatam-unNabeyeen and I do consider Mohammad as the Last Law-bearing prophet. For more details, read my replies above.
Please don’t try to divert the topic. If you believe that there is no prophet after Mohammad(sa), Go prove it with Quran. Also please put a critique on the explanation of the verse above.
*PS: we are not discussing Ahmadiyyat over here. *
Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited November 14, 2000).]
I have written and spoken to Muslims in the past, and because I don’t believe everything blindly, I have been accused of being arrogant. This does not include you, I’m just mentioning it to let you know I’m really interested in learning about Islam (from the heart). Maybe I did not express my question clearly OR maybe you misunderstood my question. As I wrote below: "I understands that Islam teaches that Muhammad is the LAST MESSENGER. I know that the Qur’an teaches that Muhammad is the last prophet. IS THERE A VERSE IN THE QURAN THAT STATES THAT MUHAMMED IS THE LAST MESSENGER? " Let me try to explain my understanding of it. A.Y.Ali’s Translation and commentary: According to Surah 19:51 & 22:52 “…Apostle OR prophet…” & “…Apostle AND prophet…” the indication is that these are two different offices, also see the commentaries. So, while Muhammed is the last prophet according to the Qur’an, I have not seen a verse stating he is the last messenger.
Michael Mohammad
Reply:
To fully understand why the Qur’an has considered it sufficient to declare that Mohammad (pbuh) is the last Nabi (prophet) and has not felt the need to declare that Mohammad (pbuh) is also the last Rasu’l (messenger) of Allah, one must first understand the difference between the two offices of “Nabi” and “Rasu’l”.
In one of previous responses to a question regarding the difference between the two offices of Nabi and Rasu’l, I had written:
"The Qur’an has used the words “Nabi” (literally meaning: “one who informs”) and "Rasu’l” (literally meaning: “one who delivers a message”) as terms as well as in their literal meanings. In their literal meaning, these words have also been used interchangeably. As terms of the Qur’an, the two words have been used in more qualified and distinct meanings.
“Nabi”, as a term of the Qur’an refers to individuals selected by the Almighty for the specific purpose of delivering the message revealed to him from God and to remind people of the Day when they shall be presented before the Almighty and shall have to answer for their deeds. In other words, “Nabi” is an individual who guides his people to the path of the Creator’s liking in the light of the message revealed to him.
On the other hand, “Rasu’l” (as a term of the Qur’an) is a special position, which was given only to a few of the “Nabis”. Every “Nabi” is not necessarily a “Rasu’l”. According to the details scattered in the Qur’an regarding the position of “Rasu’l”, God sends His “Rasu’ls” as symbols of His final Judgment. “Rasu’l”, in contrast to “Nabi” is not just a deliverer of God’s message. On the basis of the response that he receives from his addressees, he decides the fate of his nation. The Qur’an, regarding “Rasu’ls” says:
“Those that oppose God and His Rasu’ls shall be brought low. God has decreed: I will surely triumph, Myself and My Rasu’ls. God is Most Powerful, Mighty.”
(Al-Mujadilah 58: 20, 21)
It should be quite clear from this clarification, that though “Nabi” and “Rasu’l” are separate designations of the Qur’an and all Nabis are not Rasu’l, yet all “Rasu’ls” are “Nabis” too. Thus when the Qur’an said that Mohammad (pbuh) is “the seal of Nabis”, it automatically implies that the Qur’an holds him as the seal of “Rasu’ls” too, because a person who is a Rasu’l”, according to the Qur’an, has to be a “Nabi” first.
I hope this helps. In case any aspect of my answer remains unclear, please feel free in writing back to me at your own convenience.
May the Almighty guide us all to the path of His liking.
Originally pasted by Mr. Popper; - Every “Nabi” is not necessarily a “Rasu’l”.
- “Nabi” and “Rasu’l” are separate designations of the Qur’an
- all Nabis are not Rasu’l, yet all “Rasu’ls” are “Nabis”
[/quote]
Popper, do you think this is relevant?
The person’s query is about difference between a MESSENGER and a PROPHET. Nabi and Rasool is a different subject. to me a nabi is a rasool and rasool is a nabi.
Please leave the cut&paste statements, argue YOUR BELIEFS with YOUR OPINIONS and try to refute the interpretation discussed above.
Thankyou
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited November 14, 2000).]
Islam is not an ideology which is supposed to be full of opinions. It is a code of conduct. And if I get that code wrong then I will be responsible on the Day Of Judgement to Allah Almighty Himself. This is why I attach great importance to the work of scholars such as the ones which I have forwarded here.
If you feel that I’m going off the topic then please allow me the courtesy to simply respond to you. At the top of the reply which I had posted recently, it said
This is an important point which you have made. Why? Because there is an important implication that arises from your statment. And the previous scholar’s response simply elaborates upon the consequences of that implication. That is why I do think it is directly related to your topic.
I am not your enemy. You are my dear friend and brother. I hope I can be the same to you.
Indeed one should get guidance from the more scholarly persons, but how can one judge the person is saying the truth. Like the scholar above gave his opinion about Khatim and Khatam, I feel his silence on crucial points speaks as he is trying to escape the truth.
So I deem it essential to analyze things individually and try to find answers, one way or the other. Certainly everyone has to answer for his/her own codes.
Ok let stick to the same argument ‘why Prophets cant come’ and proceed our debate.
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited November 14, 2000).]
I(me not you)would rather call an Ahmadi my muslim Brother rather than a shia or Sunni who drinks, commits Zinnah and ruins the Image of Islam! I am more comfortable with an Ahmadi as my muslim bro over a Prostitute(I would not call her/him a muslim even)!
Let us look at it this way from now!
OUR LORD! WE HAVE INDEED HEARD THE VOICE OF A CRIER(MESSENGER)CALLING TO THE FAITH: "BELIVE IN YOUR LORD" SO WE BELIVED. OUR LORD! FORGIVE US THEN OUR SINS, AND REMOVE FROM US OUR EVIL DEEDS, AND CAUSE US DIE ALONG WITH THE VIRTUOUS