Qadianism / Ahmediat

[Niaz]

Hello Someone else,

Here are some ahadith related to the return of Hazrat Issa alaihissalam. Inshallah i am sure u will have no doubt now in your mind, this is about the believe of qadianese / ahmedis that Ghulam Abbas was Issa alaihissalam. Just try to pick up the conditions from the ahadith when Hazrat Issa will return and wat he will do.

Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

Sahih Muslim - Book 1, Number 0293:
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims’) commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah.

Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 6924:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour will not come until the Romans land at al-A’maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people on Earth at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them).
When they arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans will say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from among us. Let us fight them. The Muslims will say: Nay, by Allah, we shall never turn aside from you and from our brethren so that you may fight them.
They will then fight and a third (part) of the army, whom Allah will never forgive, will run away. A third (part of the army), which will be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah’s eyes, would be killed. The third who will never be put on trial will win and they will be the conquerors of Constantinople.
As they are busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, Satan will cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your families. They will then come out, but it will be of no avail. When they reach Syria, he will come out while they are still preparing themselves for battle, drawing up the ranks.
Certainly, the time of prayer will come and then Jesus (peace_be_upon_him), son of Mary, descend and will lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah see him, it will (disappear) just as salt dissolves in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely. Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).

Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 6931:
Narrated Hudhayfah ibn Usayd Ghifari:
Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion) He said: What do you discuss about? (the Companions) said: We are discussing about the Last Hour.
Thereupon he said: It will not come until you see ten signs before and (in this connection) he made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), The Gog and Magog, and landslides in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.

Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 7015:
Narrated An-Nawwas ibn Sam’an:
Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) mentioned of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him as insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant (and we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) on our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) you mentioned the Dajjal this morning (sometimes describing him) as insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think he was present in some (nearly) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees.
So he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among you, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not among you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah will take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (the Dajjal) will be a young man with twisted, cropped hair, and a blind eye. I compare him with AbdulUzza ibn Qatan. He who among you will survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Surah al-Kahf (xviii). He will appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! Adhere (to the path of Truth).
We said: Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), how long will he stay on Earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week, and the rest of the days will be like your days. We said: Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) will one day’s prayer suffice for the prayers of the day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of the time (and then observe prayer).
We said: Allah’s apostle (peace_be_upon_him) how quickly will he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He will come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion); they will affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He will then give a command to the sky: there will be rainfall upon the Earth and it will grow crops. Then in the evening, their pasturing animals will come to them with their humps very high, their udders full of milk and their flanks distended. He will then come to another people and invite them. But they will reject him so he will go away from them; they will have a drought and nothing will be left with them in the form of wealth.
He will then walk through the desert and say to it: Bring forth your treasures. The treasures will come out and gather before him like a swarm of bees. He will then call someone in the flush of youth, strike him with the sword, cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at the distance which is generally between the archer and his target.
He will then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness). It will at this very time that Allah will send Christ, son of Mary. He will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus, wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, there will fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells the odour of his body will die and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see. He will then search for him (Dajjal) until he catches hold of him at the gate of Ludd and kills him.
Then a people whom Allah had protected will come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he will wipe their faces and inform them of their ranks in Paradise. It will be under such conditions that Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah will send Gog and Magog and they will swarm down from every slope. The first of them will pass the lake of Tiberias and drink out of it. And when the last of them passes, he will say: There was once water there.
Jesus and his companions will then be besieged here (at Tur, and they will be so hard pressed) that the head of the ox will be dearer to them than one hundred dinars. Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), Jesus, and his companions will supplicate Allah, Who will send to them insects (which will attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish as one single person. Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), Jesus, and his companions, then come down to Earth and they will not find on Earth as much space as a single span that is not filled with putrefaction and stench. Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), Jesus, and his companions will then beseech Allah who will send birds whose necks would be like those of Bactrian camels and they will carry them away and throw them where Allah wills.
Then Allah will send rain which no house of mud-bricks or (tent of) camel-hair will keep out and it will wash the Earth until it resembles a mirror. Then the Earth will be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there will grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of people will be able to eat it and seek shelter under its skin, a dairy cow will give so much milk that a whole party will be able to drink it. The milking camel will give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe will be able to drink from it, and the milking-sheep will give so much milk that the whole family will be able to drink from it. At that time Allah will send a pleasant wind which will soothe (people) even under their armpits. He will take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked will survive who will commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.

Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 7023:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr:
Someone came to him and said: What is this hadith that you narrate that the Last Hour will come at a certain time? Thereupon he said: Hallowed be Allah, there is no god but Allah (or words to the same effect). I have decided that I shall not narrate anything to anyone now. I have only said that you will see after some time an important event: that the (sacred) House (Ka’bah) will be burnt and it definitely happen.
He then reported that Allah’s Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Dajjal will appear in my Ummah and he will stay (in the world) for forty–I cannot say whether he meant forty days, forty months or forty years. Allah will then send Jesus, son of Mary, who will resemble Urwah ibn Mas’ud. He (Jesus Christ) will chase him and kill him. Then people will live for seven years, during which time there will be no rancour between any two persons. After that Allah will send a cold wind from the direction of Syria. None will survive on Earth, having a speck of good in him or faith in him: he will die. Even if some among you were to enter the innermost part of the mountain, this wind would reach that place also and cause your death.
I heard Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Only the wicked people will survive and they will be as careless as birds with the characteristics of beasts. They will never appreciate good nor condemn evil. Then Satan will come to them, in human form, and would say: Don’t you respond? They will say: What do you order us to do? He will command them to worship the idols but, in spite of this, they will have an abundance of sustenance and lead comfortable lives. Then the trumpet will be blown and he who hears it will bend his neck to one side and raise it from the other side. The first one to hear that trumpet will be the person who is busy in setting right the cistern meant for supplying water to the camels. He will faint and the other people will also faint. Then Allah will send or He will cause to be sent rain which will be like dew and there will grow out of it the bodies of people.
Then the second trumpet will be blown and they will stand up and begin to look (around). Then it will be said: O people, go to your Lord. They will be made to stand there and they will be questioned. Then it will be said: Bring out a group (of them) for the Hell-Fire. It will be asked: How much? It will be said: Nine hundred and ninety-nine out of one thousand for the Hell-Fire. That will be the day that will make the children old because of its terror and that will be the day about which it has been said: “On the day when the shank will be uncovered”.

Sunan Abu Dawood
Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

[Mohammed_Ali]

To someone else:

Assalamualaikum - Peace be upon you

I'm not a good muslim neither am I a scholor but what I know is that Esa (as) has not died yet as confirmed in the holy Quran (I will post the verses later as I'm on duty at night in office), Jihad can never be stopped until Qayamat as proclaimed by our beloved Prophet Muhammed (PBUH).

Before we go in detail of Ahmadiya, I would urge you to read his biography written by other people rather then your scholors so you will have a better idea of what kind of a person he was. Even his son did not believe in him. A man who was a slave of the British Government, on their financial support to him
they controled spiritually like Salman Rushdie (I dont find any difference between them based on what I have read about them).

I have read Ahmeddia homepage, although they are very educated and peaceful people which I wont denied but that wont help you to become a true believer in Islam. Whatever you people have now is because of the support of the British Government no matter how you denie it millions of people know the truth.

Let me tell you that the success of this life is based on belief in Allah (swt) and his/ours beloved prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and good deeds and spread true Islam.

Finally the choice is yours and Allah (swt) will guide whom he will and will led astray whom he will.

Wasalam

MY ENGLISH IS NOT TOO GOOD SORRY

[someone_else]

May peace be upon you!

niaz bhai,
thank you very much for findng and posting all the ahadith, it was very nice of you.. jazaak-ullah.
Well as we all know, Ahadith, and Sunnah are "Khadim-ul-koran" and all such ahadith are not authentic which are against the koran. The koran says that Jesus is dead! so all such ahadith which say that jesus is alive and will come back are not authentic.

So lets wait till Muhammad Ali or you posts the verses from koran where you think allah says jesus is alive.

if koran says jesus is dead, it will clearly tell us which of the ahadith is authentic.

Muhammad ali,
"may allah's curse be on the liars"
How could u ever say his son didnt believe in him? Have you no fear of allah? Just to degrade and dis someones personality, u dont even feel ashamed in lying? The history, the earth and the sky, and above all, Allah bears witness that he had three sons, all of whom believed in him.
if its true that Ahmadi scholars are biased and they will try to hide the bad points of mirza ghulam ahmads personality, then this applies to your scholars too, who will try to make dis him.
Have fear of alaah and refrain from lying.

the other lie from you is that the british government helps jama'at-e-ahmadiya. actually, jama'at-e-ahmadyaa is the only jama'at which solely runs on the funds and financial sacrifices of its followers. The british government is extremely particular about our finances, it is always trying to prove we practice corruption in our accounts or dont pay taxes, but by the grace of allah the almighty, they havent been able to find a corruption of even 1 dollar in our accounts. jama'at stores copies of its budget, and all its financial documents which u can go thru if u like, and it'll make you clear where ALL the money comes from. a lot of people have tried to find some fault with our claim, but whoever saw the records couldnt even prove even 1 dollar of aid from any government or organization of the world. i have already said a lot of times, that the liar is a cursed man, so if i lie, may allah's curse be on me.. and if u lie, may allahs curse be on you.. now can u swear upon allah and say that we take financial help from british government or mirza ghulam ahmad's son wasnt an ahmadi? remeber , whoever lies, faces allahs curse, lives and dies as a loser and disgraced. now can u swea to allah and say those things?

so u should refrain from lying. allah does not like liars, i wonder if your start was based on lies, what will you do later in the discussion? u are hear to represent your religion, if u will tell lies, this will give a wrong impression about your religion. How can u prove us to be liars, when u are lying yourself? please speak only the truth, dont speak the language of "mullah".. first investigate, find out the truth, then make statments. i pray that allah gives you the ability to seperate true from false.

[Niaz]

Hi Someone else,

Hmmm, I didn't know u would do this, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslims are the two best collection of authentic ahadith which all alims have agreed upon. There is no single zayeef hadith in these two books inshallah, b'cos the rules for accepting a hadith are very strong in these two books. But still if u will insist I will repeat this Ayat from my earlier post:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Surah Al - nisa (chapter - 4)

First of all I would like to know who did u said the ahadith I said were not authentic, they are 100% authentic. And I don't expect u to come with a reply that this Ayat is not in Quran or nauzobillah this Ayat is also fake. Astaghfirullahalazim.

Dear, u said u believe in ahadith, is this the way u believe, Bukhari and Muslim are the collection of all Sahih ahadith, that's y they are called Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. U can blindly believe in these two books, Inshallah everything there is a sure truth and is a hadith of Muhammed (PBUH).

Again I want to give u an advice, don't act like the Quraish, as they said, how can we leave wat our fathers and forefathers have followed, real man is one who can act on what he sees the truth, if u have found the truth, just don't deny it b'cos u just don't want to believe in it.

I am sorry if I said anything to heart u.

Bye.

[someone_else]

niaz bhai, peace be upon you.

first of all, dont get so emotional, the discussion has just started.. i will certainly reply to all you questions, and in the end, inshallah one of us will be satisfied with the other.

as for the books you have mentioned, just relax, all i say is, koran proves jesus' death, and if it does, then it is but certain that the ahadith you wrote are not authentic.. okay?

just leave the ahadith aside, and let koran decide which of them is authentic.

now we come to the koran. the verse you gave is right there in the koraan, and if you read it in arabic, it will clearly say that jesus is dead.. it is 3:12 am here right now.. i am working to find out TWO urdu translations for this aayat, along with the arabic text, and some arabic dictionaries, (new and old) and inshallah tommorow, i will write a detailed answer to your post, anyways, meanwhile, try reading this verse in arabic.

i am sorry for delaying it to tommorow, but as you know this is a very sensitive topic, so we have to be extremely careful when we relate to books, especially when it comes to the translation of koran.

dont worry, i will not act like koraish, as an ahmadi, i am taught to study and discuss, and search the truth, and allah is witness that i wil listen to all the things you say, with an open heart and an open mind, and i will expect the same from you.

now i should start to work, inshallah, i will write in tommorow

[Niaz]

Hi

Hmmm, i thought u ppl believe in Muhammed (PBUH), but i don't think so now. By denying to accept the hadith of sahih bukhari and sahih muslim, which all the alims have agreed are authentic. May i know on wat basis u r saying that these ahadith r not authentic when the alims of today and of the past have said that these ahadith r authentic.

Now u r telling me that the translation is wrong, hmmm, i really don't get u, If in English it states jesus is not dead, and it is translated from Arabic into English how can it be opposite. I have seen three different translations, and u think its wrong in all of them.

Neways, inshallah i will reply that also, alhamdolillah i am in an Arab muslim country, and arabic will not be a problem for me inshallah, If u think that, that ayat says jesus is dead then prove so in Arabic .OK ???? Just state the ayat in arabic and explain it yourself. Now we will not go to English or urdu translations as according to u they are wrong.

U think i am liieing.
U think the whole world is lieing.
U don't even believe in ahadith (so u don't believe in Mohammed (PBUH) )
U think the Quranic translation i gave u is wrong.

Neways, I will wait for your reply with a hope that u will try to understand with an open mind and heart inshallah.

bye

[system]

Assalam alaikum

There is nothing wrong in the translation of that ayah.

Someone else, whose translation do you use?

kh.

[someone_else]

First of all, i do believe in ahadith, but muhammad, peace be upon him, CAN NOT say anything against the koran! so i strongly believe that muhammad DID NOT say jesus is alive!
Though muhammad DID tell us of a mehdi, and called him a messiah, he never said that jesus is alive and sitting with allah! He refered to him as ibn-e-mariam, but you must understand, that ibn-e-mariam is not always used for jesus! as for an example, see this popular urdu verse,
ibn-e-mariam huwaa karay koi,
mere dard kee dawaa karay koi.
similarly, generous people are sometimes refered to as hatim tai, and wise man may be called aristotle.

among the aadith you mentioned, here's one:
" there is no mehdi but eesaa! ''
From here, we conclude that there is only ONE man to come.. right?
now another hadith related by imam bokhari, (u said we should believe them blindly, )
" what will you be like, when ibn-e-mariam will come to you, and your imam will be from within you"
this clearly proves that there is just ONE person to come, who will be from within Muhammad's,( peace be upon him ) ummah!
jesus is not from Muhammad;s ummah, and secondly, koran says jesus is dead!

now as a muslim, u must believe that ahadith and sunnah are 'khadim-ul-koran'

right?
so just see that koran proves that jesus is dead. if koran says that, it will automatically mean that jesus will not come again!

now, your verse, which is verse number 158, does say that they couldnt crucify jesus, BUT does not say that he is alive and sitting with allah.
it is but obvious from the verse that jesus didnt die on the cross, but i dont know how are u saying that he didnt die at all. who says jesus died on the cross?? ahmadis dont say that, and i have told it to you already!

You call us kaafir, but we think its better to be called kaafir, then to go against what allah has said!
whatever people say about jesus, is not what allah tells us!

why do you people say that jesus is alive, sitting with allah, without eating and drinking?? you are just allowing the christians to talk against islam! u are allowing them to say, is he not a god, when he is sitting with allah, without eating or drinking?''

actually koran proves that jesus is dead!
which directly follows that he isnt coming back.

so koran says in verse 117,118 chapter 5,

'' and when god said, 'o jesus, son of mary, did thou say unto men, ' take me and my mother as gods, apart from allah?'
he said,, ' to thee be glory! it is not mine to say what i have no right to. if i indeed said it, thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and i know not what is within thy soul, thou knowest the things unseen.
i only said what thou didst command me, 'serve god, my lord and your lord' and i was
a witness over them while i remained among them, but when you gave me death, ( arabic: ........falamma tawaffaitani kunta......) thou was thyself the watcher over them...."

this verse clearly states that the followers of jesus only became mushrikeen after his death... which clearly means that jesus is dead!
note that whatever translation you use, be careful, that in koran, the word, tawaffaitani is used, which is clearly pointing to the death of jesus. so it is better if u read it in arabic.

and that is not all!

read verse number 94 of chapter 17, (according to whatever translation u like) where allah says to Muhammad, peace be upon him, that if they ask you, that they wont believe in you until you climb up the heaven, bring a book , and climb back, then you (i.e. muhammad) should reply, glory be to my lord, i am only a man and a rasool.
this clearly states that a man and a rasool even Muhammad, the man allah loves the most, is not allowed/able to climb the heaven, how come jesus did that??
koran says that muhammad cant climb the sky, because he is a human being, which means, that according to koran, a human being can not climb the sky! allah wont let muhammad climb the sky, because muhammad is a human being, then how come allah let jesus climb the sky?
if u still say that jesus is alive, and in the sky, then it means that u are relating him to be a god! (naooz-u-billah-e-min zaalik)

this is not all...

when Muhammad died, everybody was very sad, but omer lost his senses, he took a sword and said, muhammad is not dead, if somebody says muhammad is dead, i will kill him.... this was the situation when abu-bakr came, and recited the wiords of koran:

Muhammad is nuthing else but a prophet, all prophets before him have DIED, (arabic:..... kad-khalat min kablehir-rusul...)
so if he dies too, will you turn back on your ankles?
this is the verse 145 of chapter 3, the house of imran.
when abu-bakr said these words, umer became unconcious and fell on the floor.
this verse clearly states that ALL prophets before Muhammad have died!

koran is filled with words of wisdom, these were just a few examples i could find, where it is proven by the koran that jesus is dead. i bet there might be more of them.

My beloved brothers, koran has said it all.. please dont go againsty the koran.. it is but clear from koran that jesus is dead, koran has clearly showed which of the ahadith is authentic, and which one is not. if you have even a little bit of faith left... if theres even a little respect in your heart for allah and his book, then for allah's sake, please dont disbelieve in koran.

may allah be your protector!
may allah guide ALL OF US to the right path!
Amen!

keep in mind, that the only verse u were able to produce, only said that jesus didnt die on the cross, which is already a known fact for both of us.

[This message has been edited by someone else (edited 09-09-98).]

[Niaz]

Hi someone else,

I will write to u on Saturday, i will provide u proof from Quran and will explan the ayats u have mentioned. Rite now i have some. Inshallah I will reply on Saturday.

Bye.

[someone_else]

niaz bhai,
peace be upon you!

You talk about this saturday.. you can take a million saturdays... u can keep on working and working... but u will never be able to disprove the words of the koran. such is the greatness of this book! take your time.. thing about things, i am here, waiting for your reply.

may allah be your protector

[system]

Assalam alaikum

Someone else,

How come you don't answer my question?

Which translation of the Qur'aan do you use?

You also pointed to the wrong ayah.

The actual ayah is:

3:144 Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude.

It doesn't say all prophets died before him.

I guess you haven't heard of the two prophets who are still alive but live in the unseen world. I'll find you proof.

I was discussing ahmedis with my neighbour and he said that mirza ahmed died on the toilet.

Assalam alaikum

[farouq_taj]

I'm doing my best to avoid theological debates at present but Mudassar's comment regarding the circumstances of Mirza's death prompted me.

One characteristic of Pakistani non Ahmadi Muslims is that they will always insist that the evil British are behind the whole scheme and then concentrate on hurling insults at Ahmadis and their prophet. This does not convince any intelligent and open minded person that Ahamdis are not Muslims. In fact I have more sympathy for them as victims of violent Pakistani fascists.

There is no doubt that Ahmadis are the victims of institutional bigotry and hatred in Pakistan. Having known an Ahmadi family myself in person I can vouch for their warmth and hospitality. Their Islamic Azab is far above that of many ranting raving foaming at the mouth burly bearded Pakistanis.

I don't accept Mirza as a prophet as I am suspicious of any organisation led by someone who claims divine inspiration.

I'd ask orthodox Muslims to put forward well thought out and reasoned arguments and not resort to vile language just because they're losing the argument or unable to express their own views.

Farouq Taj.

[someone_else]

Farooq bhai,
peace be upon you!
and welcome to this discussion. i am very glad to find an open minded, well mannered and educated person among us. may allah guide all of us to the right path.
i do agree that these people are being extremely ill-mannered by concentrating less on the words of koran, and more on disgracing people.

Mr. mudassar,

i am extremely shocked to see your post, and i certainly expected from you, much better than what u wrote. was it you my brother??
actually i am not sure if i want to talk to you anymore. not only did u disgraced someone i respect, but u also disgraced koran's words.
it was shameful! really shameful! you know the fact that koran has disproved you, and now you are trying to find some place to hide your ignorance. what did u mean by disgracing someone like that? if a christian or a jew say something about our prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, then u people kill them for that? dont u? now didnt u feel ashamed to say those words to someone, when u actually kill people who say the same things to you! kyaa tumhain aisaa kertay huwe zara bhee sharam nahee aaee??? yeh baat waisay bhee jhoot hai.. magar tumhain shayad koi parwaah nahee, kyoonke u dont understand koran, u just know how to disgrace peopel... this shows nuthing but your upbringing! the thing u said, it is extremely rude to say this to ANYONE whosoever! kyaa tumhare dil main khudaa ka koi khauf na aaya, jub tum nay yeh jhootay alfaaz siraf kisi kee bay-izzati kernay kay liye likhay.. yeh alfaaz likhtay wakat tumhain Muhammad, peace be upon him, kee zindagee na yaad aaiee, kay unhon nay to kabhee aisee baat kisi dushman ko bhee na kahee??? kyaa tumhare haath khudaa kay khof say kaanpay nahee jub tum nay aik jhoot bola, woh bhee kisi ko hurt kernay kay liye... siraf is liye hurt kernaa chahte thay kay main ahmadi hoon?? agar sunni isi tarah kay hotay hain, to allah ka laakh laakh shukar hai, kay us nay mujhay ahmadi paidaa kiyaa.. bhalay tum mujhay kaafir keh lo, magar tum jaisaa so-called momin honay say behter hai main "kaafir" hee reh jaoo!

ab main aap kee koran kay baaray main ghaltiaan durust ker doon!

aap is aayat kee translation ko choro, aur arabic pay ghaur kero:

wamaa-muhammadun illaa rasoolu; kad khalat min kable-hir-rusul; ....

aap is aayat kop perho to is kaa mutlub bilkul saaf hai! but how can u have time to read koran and understand it, when u are more busy in discussing that Mirza sahab died in the toilet.

just compare the two deeds...

what u should have done:
reading the koran, trying to understand it, and to pray to allah to make us understand, and then writing in clear proofs from allah's book!

what u did:
discuss with your neighbours that mirza ghulam ahmad qadiani died in a toilet.

look at you! dont u feel ashamed of yourself? kyaa tumhain aisee batain kertay huwaym koi hayaa na aai? tum nay aik dafa bhee na socho kay allah ta'aala tumharee is baat say litnaa naraaz ho sakta hai! aur tum ko jo kuch kernay ka hukum hai, us kee bajae tum intehai behooda aur baysharam, aur mukummal tor per jhootee baatain, siraf kisi ko hurt kernay, aur kisi kee bay-izzati kernay kay liye ker rahe ho!

ai mere khudaa yeh kyaa maajraa hai? jahaan teri kitaab say ilum haasil kerna tha, wahaan fazool, lughv, aur behooda baatain ker kay apna aur apnay muzhub ka mazaak uratee hain yeh log?

and dont worry.. i have a clear and straight answer to a very stupid question that u put up!

i have known that u are not aware of what koran says... atleast it appears like that from the words u said in your post, and the attitude you showed towards this problem.
so for your convenience i can have a lot easier logic for you....

u just didnt notice, that the first ijmah after the death of Hazrat Muhammad, peace be upon him, was that all the prophets before him had died.
if allah gives you the oppertunity to read some ahadith about it, or atleast read my post with more concentration, u will find out, that the situation was.. that umer had a sword in his hand, and said, whoever says muhammad is dead, i will kill him. such was the shock he had.. at this point, abu bakar reads the verse i mentioned, and umer just faints out of sadness. this happened just because the verse made it clear to him, that mohammad is no more than a prophet, and all prophets before him died.. thus he will also die, like all other prophets.

another thing that the ahadith mention, is that umer was saying, that Muhammad hasnt died, he has just gone for 40 days, like moses, and he will come back! If he had any knowledge about jesus being alive, then he wouldve mentioned that thing too, why did he only mention moses??

and if the verse meant, that all apostles have not died, some are yet living, then how come it satisfied omer?? and what was the use of saying this verse at that situation? becoz if it meant, that some apostles are living, then this would have given omer, all the more reason to say that muhammad is not dead!
where is your common sense? i think u use it in discussing vulgar things about people with your neighbours.

anyways, if u still dont believe that this aayat means all the prophets are dead, to kyaa aap koraan kee us aayat ko jhutlaa do gay, (naoozubillah) jis main yeh baat saaf aur waazeh bataee gayee hai, kay christians only became mushrik after jesus died! this means that jesus is dead! i have reffered to this aayat in my previous post, but you could not come up with a suitable answer to it... becoz u were more interested in talking dirty, and showing your real self!

and not only that koran is still proving jesus is dead, koran is also proving that a man and a prophet can not climb the sky!

magar aap ko koraan kee kyaa fikar, aap ko to fikar is baat kee hai, keh kis tarah mirza sahab kee baistee karain.

agar aap ko zara bhee sharam aa jatee, aur zara bhee islam aur allah say pyaar hota,to aap pehlay un aayaat kee baat kertay, jo main nay aap kee khidmat main pesh kee thee, magar aap kay dil main say shayad khauf-e-khudaa nikal gayaa hai. aap ko koran main koi interest nahee, aap ko to interest hai fazool aur bay-hayaa batain ker kay doosron ko zaleel kernay main!

mudassar sahab, aap ka jo attitude hai, aur jis tarah aap baat ker rahe hain, main aap kay liye buhut pareshaan hoon, aur aalah say aap kay liye duwaa kertaa hoon.. magar aap khood zara aik minute kay liye sochain... kyaa agar aap is tarah kee batain karain gay, to logon ko apnay religion kee taraf attract ker sakain gay? koraan kee baton kay jawaab main jo baat aap nay kahee hai, woh intehai dard denay walee hai.. kuch to khudaa ka khauf karain.. aisee bhee mujh say kyaa ladai hai, kay aap koran kee izzat bhool ker behooda baton kee taraf chal paray.. kyaa aap ko yeh undaaza bhee nahee huwaa kay is tarah aap koran kee bayhurmati ker rahe hain.. kai allah nay koran nazil farmaya, take humain guidance milay, magar aap koran say guidance lenay kay bajai baysharmi aur bay hayee kee sara-sar jhooti aur bay bunyaad baatain kehtay rahe!

aur till now, i had heard that u people claim only jesus is alive.. i just got to know from you that there are TWO prophets alive... u can say whatever u want, u can believe whatever u want, but when u basi it on islam, please dont talk until you relate to koran! as far as my knowledge of the koran is concerned, nowhere in the koran does allah mention two prophets who are living. uptil now i have only heard of muslims saying jesus is alive,, i just came to know that u say not one but TWO prophets are alive... when koran is clearly pointing out that muhammad, and all the prophets before him have died.

anyways.. i am extremely depressed on how mudassar tried to change the discussion, ignoring the real things, and talking dirty!

[system]

Assalam alaikum

someone else,

If you read my post again you will see that I didn't say that mirza ahmed died on the toilet. I was told this by my neighbour and I thought I'll ask you what your opinion on this was.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith

Hadith 1.345

Narrated by Abu Dhar

Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'
Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet) met Adam on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris.' The Prophet added, 'I passed by Moses and he said, "Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.'"I asked Gabriel, "Who is he?"Gabriel replied, "He is Moses." Then I passed by Jesus and he said, "Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet."I asked, "Who is he?" Gabriel replied, "He is Jesus."
Then I passed by Abraham and he said, "Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son."I asked Gabriel, "Who is he?"Gabriel replied, "He is Abraham." The Prophet added, "Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers. When I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of the utmost boundary) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith
Hadith 4.657

Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non-Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith
Hadith 6278
Narrated by Ja'far as-Sadiq

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "Rejoice and rejoice again. My people are just like the rain, it not being known whether the last or the first of it is better; or it is like a garden from which a troop can be fed for a year, then another troop can be fed for a year, and perhaps the last troop which comes may be the broadest, deepest and finest. How can a people perish of which I am the first, the Mahdi the middle and the Messiah the last? But in the course of that there will be a crooked party which does not belong to me and to which I do not belong."
Razin transmitted it.

End.

So many people have different ideas about mirza ahmed some claim he is the Mahdi and others claim he is a prophet. Who is Mirza Ahmed?

Assalam alaikum

[Niaz]

Hi Someone else,

For your kind information, in Quran and sunnah Ibn-e-Marium is used only and only for Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam and please do not be misunderstood with poetry [ibn-e-marium hua karay koi, meray dard ki dawa karay koi], [shairi main to mehboob ko khuda bana daitay hain, tu kia aap who bhi maan lo gaay key naozobillah khuda koi bhi ho sakta hay].

When this ayat was sent, at that time and still today Christians thought that Jesus was killed on the Cross as when they came to the cross, there was a dead body there having the same face and body resemblence of Jesus, and that is why Allah says that He was not killed. So it means he is not dead.

Jesus brought allah's message to his people but when he will return he will be an ummati of Muhammed (PBUH) and a follower of Islam.

Surat Al Maeeda - 117
Ma qultu lahum illa ma' … falamma tawaffaitani kunta … kulli sha'in shaheed.
YUSUFALI: "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
PICKTHAL: I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.

Mutawaffiqa - yatawaffakum - yatawaffal [yeh sab alfaq wafat say liay gaay hain, aur wafat (arabic) ka matlab hay qabz kerna, uthana, marna.]

Surat Al Maeeda - 117
Ma qultu lahum illa ma' … falamma tawaffaitani kunta … kulli sha'in shaheed.

Surat Al-in'am Ayat 59
Wa huallazi yatawaffakum billail …. kuntum tamaloon.

Surat Al-zumr - 42
Allahu yatawaffal anfusa …. yatafakkaroon.

In the above ayats the word wafat is used in different meanings. And lets consider the meaning you gave, then also, after reading this ayat you will come to know that Allah is asking Hazrat Eisa about his qaum, so when is HE asking ???? It shows clearly that Allah SWT is talking about Qayamat, before which everyone will be dead, so in that case also, as we muslims do believe that he will die after his return after 40 years as per ahadith wallah o alam], so here it doesn't show that he was dead at the first place, which u and all christians think. And as u said u don't believe that he died on the cross, then how did he died as per your believe. I think the following Ayats will be enough to convince you, for your convenience I have given three translations.

Surat Alnisa - Ayat 157
Wa qaulaihem inna qatalna ….. wa ma qataluhu yaqeena.
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Surat Alnisa - Ayat 158
Bar rafa'ahullahu alaihe wa kanallahu azizan hakeema. [rafay = uthana]
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Surat Al-Imran - Ayat 55
Is qal allahu ya eisa inni mutawaffiqa wa rafioka alaiyya ….. fehe takhtalefoon. [mutawaffiqa = qabz kia(yahan is lafz ka matlab marna nahin hay) , rafay = uthana].
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

I hope the above ayats are clear and so is the translation.

The verse 145 of surah Al - Imran explains that Muhammed is God's prophet and a human being just like the other prophets but do not say that all other prophets also died. I don't know if u believe in the Mira'age, which happened to our beloved prophet Muhammed (PBUH) when he was invited by Allah SWT to the heavens, samawat where he met Allah SWT and Allah SWT gave him (Muhammed PBUH) salat (prayer), and this is already proved by many many many sahih ahadith. So if he can go then why not Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam. And we are not comparing the prophets here.

If you think Hazrat Eisa alihissalam is dead then how do Qadianese / Ahmedis consider Ghulam Abbas as the promised masiha, because promised masiha is Hazrat Eisa as per the ahadith. *. Hazrat Eisa although is a prophet but he was a prophet before Muhammed (PBUH) and will come again as his ummati.

If u think Ghulam Abbas was not a prophet, if u think he was not the promised masiha, then wat was he ???? 1 more point for u, as per many ahadith the masiha will come from sky i.e. he will not born. This proves the reality that Hazrat Eisa is the promised masiha and as he is not dead and will come from heaven. No doubt Allah SWT is almighty.

Someone told me that Qadianese do believe in ahadith, that's why I gave u so many ahadith as proof, but u didn't believed in those, then I gave u so many ayats from Quran pak. Please do try to understand, read all these evidences and proofs. All these very clearly proofs that Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam is not dead, and he is the promised masiha.

Khuda key banday zara socha agar woh khuda ka paighambar ya masiha hota to kia saree duniya key musalman usay nahin mantay, kia who apni shanakht karatay he mar jata, nahin jab khuda ka paighamber ayaay ga to kisi ko shak o shubha nahin hoga [baishak Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam Hazrat Muhammed salallaho alaihaywasallam key ummati ban ker aayngaay], Allah SWT key paighambaraoon ki hastee bohot buland hey agarcha who hamaraee tarah allah key banday hain magar baqee sab bandoon say afzal hain. Is haqeeqat ko pehchannay ki koshish karo.

Now inshallah I believe there will be no doubt in your mind and I will inshallah hear from you that u have accepted the evidences from Quran and sunnah.

Bye.*

[Niaz]

Mudassar Sahab

Assalam O Alaikum !!

Aap ney jo ahadith paish ki hain woh baishak sahih hain, lakin afsoos key yeh someoneelse in per believe nahin kerta, kiyonkey mainey bhi isay bohot ahadith bataeen jo key sahih bukhari aur sahih muslim say theen, lakin us ney yeh keh ker inkar ker dia key yeh sab authentic nahin hain.

Neways u r welcomed to this discussion, hope aap apni expert way of writing say in ko convince kernay ki koshish keraingaay, jahan tak dalil ka sawal hay, mainey kafee say ziada ahadith aur ayat beyan ki hain, laikin shayad hamaree zuban main taseer nahin. :)

Jazakumullah Khair / Assalam O Alaikum.

[someone_else]

peace be upon you!

A) as for what mirza ghulam ahmad is, and what about khatam-un-nabiyyeen, and everything, this is a completely seperate discussion from the point which we are currently discussing.. so i think we shouldnt mix the two points, and talk about them ONE BY ONE! we are already talking about 4, or 5 verses together.. which makes our posts extremely long, and thus confusing.. so i guess we should concentrate on the things going on right now.. and then start the other point. i think you people will agree with me. you yourself started this point first, so let us complete it until we move to the other.
***** (this is example no.1 that u are weak on logic ------ u want to change the discussion)*****

B) Why are u insisting again and again that i should believe in ahadith... i do believe in ahadith.. but only when they are not AGAINST koran! You must prove from the koran that those ahadith are authentic! if u fail to prove that, it is my obligation to disbelieve in them! Will you believe anything which is against the koran? certaionly not, if u are muslims! then why are you making me do that? i know yu will say that they're not against koran, so if they are not, then prove it to me!

***(this is example no.2 that u are weak on logic----- u wanna leave the koran get back to ahadith again) ***

i will talk about the verses one by one,
( i will give a very strong point in the end.. which have made many, speechless and believing)

1) first of all, when both of us believe that jesus did not die on the cross, then what is the need of giving the same aayat again and again, which says jesus did not die on te cross. who says jesus was killed on the cross? not ahmadis. you are just making non-issues into issues so that you can escape the real discussion. the verse you mentioned only says that jesus did not die on the cross.. It does not say that he didnt die at all.. the ayat is just about those non believers who think they killed jesus on the cross. by no way does it mean that jesus DID NOT DIE AT ALL.
when it is believed that jesus did not die on the cross, then ahy are you mentioning it?
****(this is example no.3 that u are getting weak on logic ----- u started talking about non-issues)***

2)you say that verse 145 of chapter 3 does not mean that all other prophets have died. if that is so, then what does this mean:
"kad khalat min kablehirrusul"
what does it mean? dont go for any translations, because english translations are always according to sunnis and an arabic word can be translated in many ways.. as u yourself have just discussed, just read the arabic which is clear.

and secondly, if it does not mean what i believe it means, then why did this verse satisfy umer? i have asked this question twice but you have failed to answer it. and also, why did abu bakr read this verse at that time, becoz if it means what u say, that some prophets are not dead, then umer would have been even more furious, saying that like the prophets who are alive, muhammad is alive too.,, becoz this was the point he was trying to prove! common sense fails to believe that this verse can satisfy umer with the meaning u mention. however, MY translation EXACTLY fits into the whole situation . doesnt it?

you are just saying, no it doesnt mean that, it doesnt mean that, by the grace of allah, you have said that u know arabic, then cant you see how koran says, "kud-khalat min kublihirrusul " (with no exception) , then how come these words are true for some of the prophets and false for others??
why have you not answered this question at all, despite the fact that i have asked it twice?

**(this is example no. 4 that you are weak on logic---- u are ignoring a very strong question)**

3) your verse about rafay, please make it clear that just rafay means uthaana, but rafa'ahullahu , means death! whenever rafay , or, uthaana is associated to allah
then it means death! it is extremely from the new and old arabic literature, new and old arabic dictionaries, new and old arabic poems, or new and old arabic essays, EVERYWHERE, rafa'ahullahu , will mean death!

It is my challenge to you... find one example from anywhere in arabic writings, where rafa'ahullahu means "to be picked up by allah and sit with him"
this is an open challenge, FIND ONE EXAMPLE from anywhere you can, to prove that meaning of the word..

there is not any example of that! on the contrary, there are more than a million examples of the word being used as the meaning i have told.

4) your strange and logicless answerto the verse 117,118 from chapter 5, mentioning the dialogue between allah and jesus:

first, the meaning of wafaat as given by you:
1) merna,
(so clear)

2) rooh kabaz kerna,
(clearly means, death)

3) uthaana
this is debatable. you must hear my argument with an open mind. uthaana, when related to allah ALWAYS means death! it is a matter of common experince, that when we say, allah nay un ko uthaa liyaa, we always mean that man died.

just go to a mother and say, main aap kay betay ko uthaa loon, she will be thankful to you.. but if u say, allah aap kay baitay ko uthaa lay ..then see how furious the mother gets.

as a final proof, i will mention the ayats where you mentioned the use of wafaat, and its other arabic forms.. listen brother.. did u care to read those verses yourself? i have read both of them many times , in my short life of 18 years, and i did that again, just for you, and like i always see, all the verses you mentioned, use that word FOR DEATH OF HUMAN BEINGS! please read the verses and you will know it.

now this is my final and very strong point! u have used the words :

'' after reading this ayat you will come to know that Allah is asking Hazrat Eisa about his qaum, so when is HE asking ???? It shows clearly that Allah SWT is talking about Qayamat, before which everyone will be dead, so in that case also, as we muslims do believe that he will die after his return after 40 years as per ahadith wallah o alam]''

my wise brother, wise men say, think before you speak. If these words are really yours, then you shouldnt have posted them, before thinking..

the verse says that christians became kaafirs AFTER the death of Jesus! if this dialogue is of kayaamat, then this means that christians did not get mushrikeen until jesus' real death.. which is kayaamat!!!!!!!! this leaves you to believe two things:
either : "jesus is already dead.. thus the chritians are mushrikeen"
or : "jesus is living and christiand will not become mushrikeen until kayamat (according to your meaning of the verse)

u will agree that the second point is completely wrong because christians are mushrikeen, and it is absolutely clear!
your choice to believe :)

may allah be your protector
may allah guide all of us to the right path.

[Niaz]

Hi someone else,

U r just denying everything, everything I wrote was according to ulama karam, and I did not gave references like:
"ibn-e-mariam huwaa karay koi,
mere dard kee dawaa karay koi.
And
"just go to a mother and say, main aap kay betay ko uthaa loon, she will be thankful to you.. but if u say, allah aap kay baitay ko uthaa lay ..then see how furious the mother gets."

What is this, this is just stupidity, u r giving me such references, which in no way r related to our dicussion, u only said we will discuss this in arabic and then u come up with mere dard -e-dil ki dawa karay koi. If just the meaning of the word is concerned, its okay, but u went on to give poetry as evidences. This is unacceptable.

Knowing that there is a big difference in Arabic and urdu, all the ahadith I gave u were denied saying they are against Quran and when I gave u the evidences from Quran, u had objection on the translation.

And all the examples u have given will fit more on u, rather than on me. I.e.

this is example no.1 that u are weak on logic ------ u want to change the discussion.
this is example no.2 that u are weak on logic----- u wanna leave the koran get back to ahadith again.
(refering u r e.g no. 2, did I gave n e hadith in proof after my first post ??? Did I ??)
this is example no.3 that u are getting weak on logic ----- u started talking about non-issues. (that is clear from the type of examples u r giving.
this is example no. 4 that you are weak on logic---- u are ignoring a very strong question.

Rafay ka matlab uthana hay, aur allah tallah ney Hazrat Eisa ko uthaya tha, mara nahin tha, [remember wat we use in urdu (allah ney usay uthalia) is not same in Arabic. Arabi main Rafay ka matlab marna nahin hay even if it is used with Allah SWT's name. First u told me we will use Arabic instead of english and now instead of arabic u r using urdu poetry, and urdu literature to prove u r points.

I gave u so many sahih ahadith but u denied them saying they are against Quran. A person who does not believe in a sahih hadith (thus does not believe in Muhammed (PBUH) is NOT a MUSLIM. And I am very much suprized by the fact that u believe in some and u deny the rest. [tumhain Muhammed (PBUH) ki wafat per jo wakia hua tha us per yaqeen hay, aur jo ahadith main bol raha hoon us per yaqeeen nahin]. What u did is, u changed the translation of the Quran and then denied all the sahih ahadith saying they are against Quran, that's wat I can see from the postings. [Khuda say kuch khauf karo]

I gave u so many Ayats from Quran and u changed the meaning of these ayats, So u don't even believe in Quran also. Since the translation u r giving is coming only from u r mind and the one I have given is done by Alims(I gave u 3 translations), u don't stand n e where near them, and as far as Arabic is concerned, just don't talk about it.

Now lets talk about the strongest point u have given:

"I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things."

U said:
" the verse says that christians became kaafirs"
Now where u got that idea from and one more thing I don't thing u know the meaning of mushrik, I am 100% sure u don't know, as u said

AFTER the death of Jesus! if this dialogue is of kayaamat, then this means that christians did not get mushrikeen until jesus' real death.. which is kayaamat!!!!!!!! this leaves you to believe two things:
either : "jesus is already dead.. thus the chritians are mushrikeen"
or : "jesus is living and christian will not become mushrikeen until kayamat (according to your meaning of the verse)

Now DO U KNOW THE MEANING OF SHIRK???, u have messed it u r self, Chrishtians are not mushrikeen because they think Hazrat Eisa is dead, they are mushrikeen b'cos they believe Hazrat Eisa was Allah's son. I would advice u to get familiar with some of the most important technical terms, Mushrik woh hota hay jo Allah SWT ki kisi bhi sifaat main kisi aur ko shareek karay ya usay jhutlaay.

So u r strongest point is nothing but stupidity and lack of knowledge on u r part. As u have taken the wrong meaning from the verse, u have taken the wrong meaning of the word mushrik and u even don't know why jews are mushrikeen.

Hmmm, I think sometimes I am talking to a kid, who just takes watever meaning he wants from nething. Like if I say since Horse runs faster than a man hence it proves that Sun is very far from the earth.

Well, the only thing I want to appreciate in your post, is that u really know how to play with words. As far as the matter is concerned, its no where near truth.

Now can u answer the following questions:

Don't u believe in the 5 Ayats I gave u as proof ????
Don't u believe in the 8 ahadith which I have mentioned???.
Don't u agree that Ibn-e-Marium is used only for Hazrat Eisa.???
Don't u agree Rafay means uthana and not marna.???
Don't u believe that wafat is also used for qabz kerna and NOT ROOH qabz kerna.???
Don't u believe in the great Alims all over the World who say u ppl are wrong. ???

Now if u don't believe in these I would just say this ayah and end this post for now.

WA IZA KHATABA HUMUL JAHILOONA QALU SALAMA.

Bye.

[someone_else]

Ash-hadu-an-la-ilaaha illallaho wahdahu la-shareekallahu wa ash-hadu-anna muhammadun abduhu wa rasoolohu
ama-ba'ado fee aaozubillah-ed-minushaitaan-nirajeem
bismillah-hirahman-nirraheem

Niaz bhai,
Pace be upon you!

You are ignoring my questions, you dont have any answer to them, therefore instead of answering my points, you started to put on your own questions, and giving fatwaas about who is a muslim and who is not.

The more i organze the things in points, the more you mix all of them up, so that you can PURPOSELY ignore some of my very strong points. Until you get more organized, you can not convince anyone in any discussion. if you mix all the points up, sometimes the other person will even not get the strongest of your points.i am discussing the points one by one, first the answer to your new points, then the points by me which you have ignored. please try to answer them point by point, so that your approach is more systematic, and your points are more convincing.

The answer to your questions:
I have tried to made the answers clear and simple so that we can pay more attention to the real points that we are discussing.

1) Don't u believe in the 5 Ayats I gave u as proof ????
answer: Yes i believe in them, that is why i say jesus is dead!

2) Don't u believe in the 8 ahadith which I have mentioned???

answer: the ahadith i have given above clash with yours, thus i want the koran to decide between them

3) Don't u agree that Ibn-e-Marium is used only for Hazrat Eisa.???
answer: no i dont believe that ibn-e-mariam is only used for hazrat eesaa.

4) Don't u agree Rafay means uthana and not marna.???
answer: as i will discuss later, when allah is the "fa'il" and man is the "maf'ool" and rafay is the "f'el" then ALWAYS in arabic language, rafah means death. also in urdu, it means the same. but to be more clear on this, scroll down to see my point about the meaning of rafay.

5) Don't u believe that wafat is also used for qabz kerna and NOT ROOH qabz kerna.???
answer: No, wafaat when used, having "allah" as the "fa-il" ALWAYS means death of the "maf'ool"! for your poor informaion, i will quote the dictionary known to be the most authentic in arabic language. please scroll down on my point of the meaning of wafaat. note that the urdu meaning of wafaat is the same

6) Don't u believe in the great Alims all over the World who say u ppl are wrong. ???
answer: No, i dont, and i advise you not to believe in them. we are all aware that almost all the symptoms of the zamana of mehdi are visible! everybody can see them. i am sure you have read ther ahadith of the symptoms of that zamana, and one of them is that the ulemaa of this zamana will not know anything about islam. that is why the ulema of qaroon-olaa are preferred over the ulema of our zamana! Please try to understand it. You dont have to follow them, you have to ask yourself! in one hadith i have already mentioned to you, Muhammad peace be upon him said that when there will be 72 sects of my ummah, and the 73rd one will be my real jama'at, then if you are from that zamana, and you can not find the jama'at.. then it is better for you to go in a jungle, and eat leaves until you die, but dont believe in the ulemaa of any of those false sects. Make one thing clear, THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY IJMAH ON THE POINT THAT JESUS IS STILL ALIVE. Now i will talk about the REAL ulemaa. no matter how educated your ulemaa are THERE IS NO AALIM OF TODAY WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE THEN IMAM MALIK (rehmatullah-alaih).
"imam malik says jesus is DEAD!" as written in majmah-uj-jaar.

Once a mother asked her boy.. "prove that the earth is round." the boy replied, "the geography book says that the earth is round, the teacher says the earth is round, father says the earth is round, are they all liars?"
I think you are giving the same logic as that of the little boy in the above joke. arent you?

now i will study and discuss your "fatwaa". you are an extremely lucky person, that you are the first muslim on the earth to come up with them. this gives you an upper hand to all your so-called ulemaas, who have never been stupid enough to give "fatwaas" like yours. anyways..once you have given them, i would like to point out some weaknesses in them, so that i make you realize that even your mullahs have not been stupid enough to say such things, why do you want to move so fast? the discussion has just started.

Fatwa : " A person who does not believe in a sahih hadith (thus does not believe in Muhammed (PBUH) is NOT a MUSLIM."

Do you think you are being very wise by giving this fatwaa? You are not! Do you think you are serving islam by giving this fatwaa? You are not!

Read your words again, "a person who does not believe in sahih ahadith does not believe in Muhammad." How come? where does it say in the koran that all ahadith are true? Kalimas, from 1 to 6, the iman-e-mufassil, the iman-e-mujammil, these things define the iman. niether of them say we must also have iman on ALL the ahadith.
---) Do you know more than the one who chose kalimas, the iman-e-mufassil, and iman-e-mujammil?
---) Collecting the ahadith is a work of normal human beings, and thus it is NOT possible for it to be FREE OF ERRORS
---) Allah has promised us the protection of koran, but not the protection of ahadith, thus it is known that koran should be preffered on ahadith.

If you still stand by your fatwaa, then YOU are a kafir too! do u knw why? a sahih hadith says:
"the one who calls a kalma-sayer a kafir, is a kafir himself" !!

Thus my brother, before you make a trap to catch others, be sure you will not get yourself caught in it! jhoot bola tha, to tum per hee waapis aaya!

Now there are two cases:

1) You believe in this sahih hadith:
i am a kalma-sayer.. and u called me kafir. If you believe in the hadith, you are a kafir yourself!

2) You do not believe in this sahih hadith:
If you do nt believe in it, then you are a kafir according to your own fatwaa!

NOTE that in the above cases I have not called you a kafir even once, either the hadith calls you a kafir, or your own words call you a kafir! So if you are a kafir, then there is no need of discussing the other points! therefore it is better for you to take back your words and be more cautious while talking. wise men say, THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK, LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP!

This is not all! there are more sahih ahadith for you, which you must believe according to your fatwaa. keep one thing in mine, it is YOUR fatwaa, and it follows that if you go against it, you are a kafir.. on the other hand, associating a wrong thing with islam, is also kufar, and allah says that even if MUHAMMAD, the one he loves the most, associate anything wrong with what allah has told us, then allah will punish him too! then how can u think he will not punish you? if you are not associating a wrong thing with islam, and your fatwaa is right, then it makes you a kafir yourself, as i have explained above.

For you information, Ahmadis do believe in ahadith, but we CAN NOT believe that Muhammad, peace be upon him, can say anything against the koran. We dont believe in them because Therefore if you want me to believe in your ahadith, you have to show me that they are not against the koran. if they are, then this means, that Muhammad, peace be upon him DID NOT say them. Muhammad said only those things which are in accordance with koran. for example:

1) Jesus, son of marry lived (past tense, means already dead) for 120 years. (tibrani -o- kanz-al-amaal part 6, un hazrat-fatima)

2) If moses and jesus (thus making them equal and the same) were alive right now ( note the word "if" is used) , they wouldnt have any choice but to follow me. (ibn-e-kaseer part 2, s-246)

These ahadith are in accordance with the koranic words that jesus is dead and therefore there is no choice for us but to believe them. (neither is there any other choice for you!)

i know you will reply to this by saying that it is strange i believe in some ahadith and dont believe in others. the answer to it is, that same is the case with you! you dont believe in the ahadith i have given. so the final word is, that we can NEVER know which ahadith is true and which one is wrongly associated to Muhammad, peace be upon him. in order to know it, we must see which one is in accordance with koran! and that is exactly what i want to discuss.

so it is my request that instead of giving foolish statments like the one i have discussed above,you must concentrate more on the points we are discussing. please take back your words. if you accept this mistake, your respect in my heart will increase. i know there are some points which are confusing, and we can find out their solution only by discussion, but as far as this point by you is concerned.. i think it is not right to say such thingz as your "fatwaa"!

Now coming to the real points:

1) The meaning of wafaat.

It is but evident from arabic literature, that when the word wafat is used with allah as the "fa-il" then it always death, i.e. "rooh kabaz kerna" . You want to be sure? then look at TAAJ_UL_UROOS, (probably) the most authentic arabic dictionary :

tawaafahullah azza wajalla iza "kabaza nafsuhu" !
what can be more clear then that. you claim to understand arabic, but it seems like you dont, so in urdu, it means:

jab hum yeh kahain, kay "tawaffahullah to is kay ma'ani yeh hotay hain, "allah nay us kee ROOH KABAZ KAR LEE ( kabaza-nafsohu) !!!!

NOt JUST THIS, IT GOES ON TO SAY:

tuwuffiya falaanun, iza maata !!!!!

or in urdu,
"jub kehtay hain tuwuffiya falaanun, to is ka matlab hai woh mur gaya! "

NOW WHAT??? are u still not satisfied?? note, that taaj-ul-aroos is widely believed to be the most authentic dictionary, and if you want, you can look in any other popular dictionary also, but the one that it is widely believed to be an authentic one.

The taaj-ul-uroos is not published by ahmadis! then why did it say so? now you will say that taaj-ul-uroos uis also wrong! you will blame anyone and everyone, but you will not accept the fact, that aap say allah kay kalaam ko samajhnay main ghaltee ho gayee hai!

in the other examples that YOU yourself have given, the word wafaat is used for the death of human beings! along with yours, you can find other examples that everywhere in the koran, and everywhere else in all arabic literature, wafaat as associated with allah means death! eg. verse 78, chapter 23, the believers.... and verse 127, chapter 7...

you were talking talking about alims, read the interpretation of a REAL alim, imam-ibn-e-hazam, who says, exlaining tuwuffi, that it is either used as death, or for sleep (with a "kareena" explaning that the kabaz is temprory, as in one of the verses you gave as in verse 7 chapter 6), but imam ibn-e-hazam goes forth to explain that in eesaa's case, it does not mean "sleep" thus clearly means "death".
(see al-mujallah part 1 s-23)
and it is but obvious that no alim of today can be compared to the knowledge of imam ibn-e-hazam.
( or imam-malik, as already explained above)

now what else can i say? taaj-ul-uroos is not written by any ahmadi, imam malik was not an ahmadi, imama ibn-e-hazam was not an ahmadi.. then why are all these things supporting our view point? the answer is that you are just refusing to realize that you have gone wrong! please realize that who are the real ulemas, and who are frauds! qaroon-e-olaa kay ulemaa ko baad kay zamanay kay ulemaa pay fokiyyat haasil hai! aur taaj-ul-uroos nay wafat kay mutlub ko khol kay byaan ker diyaa hai!

you know hazrat ibn-e-abaas? i am sure you do, because he is the person, Muhammad prayed for, that allah may give him a special understanding of koran. If you see Bokhari kitaab-ul-tafseer, you will see that hazrat ibn-e-abaas has told, "mutawaffaika" means "mumaituka"! if you talk about ulema, then who can be a bigger alim than someone for whom Muhammad has prayed himself !
and Imam bokhari, the great, has wrote this thing in his book, which means that he believed it too! thus stamping the topic with his own belief too!

2) the meaning of rafay:

The meaning of rafay, when allah is the fa'il, only and only means death!

a) TOWARDS ALLAH?

if u think that rafay towards allah means to take jesus "towards allah with the whole body" then answer this point:

We all know that the wajood of allah is not limited to the sky (naoozubillah) it is kufur to say that allah is only in the sky. as muslims we know that allah is everywhere... allah's wajood is everywhere in the whole universe.. and beyond it.

allah ka wajood to hur jagah hai, to phir "rafay towards allah" how can it mean, to go to the sky?? allah is not in the sky! allah is everywhere! then if you say that allah took jesus' body towards him.. then jesus should remain where he is! because allah is there, where jesus is, and also at every other place! Not only the sky!
thus believe me that rafay means, to take the soul towards him, which means death!

b) THIS IS A CHALLENGE:
if you can find me any example from arabic literature, from authentic arabic dictionaries, or any arabic writings where rafay-ullah means to take a person, together with his body to the seventh sky.. or fifth or third or whatever you believe! if you find ONE example from anywhere where rafay-ullah is used for someone in the whole universe meaning rafay of the body, then i will give you 100 000 rupees by selling a part or whole of my property!

Mirza ghulam ahmad also gave this challemge, and many other ahmadis, but none of your so called ulemaas have come up with an example. let us see if you can!

3) the meaning of mushrikeen and the ayat i have mentioned:

You have a confusion about this aayat, possibly because you didnt read it, or possibly because my language was confusing. i know the same meaning as mushrikeen, as you have told, but the thing you are discussing is not what i am saying. i think i should be more clear and precise now.

i mentioned two verses, coming one after another.

if you read them you will find out, that they say,
that allah asked jesus, that did you tell your people there are three gods? or in other words, did you teach them to be mushrikeen?
jesus replied, no allah, i only told them what was right, and untill i was alive, i witnessed that they were not mushrikeens (i.e. did not believe in three gods) but when i died, (wafaat) i was not a witness over them, so i dont know that they became mushrikeen after my death

now, if you believe that christians are mushrikeen, then you have to believe that jesus is no more witness over them, and is dead, as said by the koranic verse! u said that this dialogue is of kayamat, then too.. its meaning is the same! if jesus will come back, then he will WITNESS that his kaum are mushrikeen....if he witnesses it, then why does he say that i did not witness it? nobody can tell lies on kayamat. if jesus did witness them to be mushrikeen, then how can he tell a lie on kayamat day?
if you believe in the ayat, then you must believe that until jesus is alive, no chritian is mushrik! after jesus dies, then they well get spoiled! this is clearly mentioned in the aayat! therefore as we can see the christians are mushrikeen, it also means that jesus cannot witness them any more.. and also means that jesus is dead!

4) MY IGNORED POINT Kad-khalat min kablehirrusul

you say that verse 145 of chapter 3 does not mean that all other prophets have died. if that is so, then what does this mean:
"kad khalat min kablehirrusul"
what does it mean? dont go for any translations, because english translations are always according to sunnis and an arabic word can be translated in many ways.. as u yourself have just discussed, just read the arabic which is clear. You dont have to ask or follow any mullah! ask yourself ! look at it! "kad khalat min kablehirrusul" !! yeh alfaaz koran kay hain! aur pathar par lakeer hain! look at them and ask yourself! what is more clear than "kad khalat min kablehirrusul!

and secondly, if it does not mean what i believe it means, then why did this verse satisfy umer? i have asked this question THRICE but you have failed to answer it. and also, why did abu bakr read this verse at that time, becoz if it means what u say, that some prophets are not dead, then umer would have been even more furious, saying that like the prophets who are alive, muhammad is alive too.,, becoz this was the point he was trying to prove! common sense fails to believe that this verse can satisfy umer with the meaning u mention. however, MY translation EXACTLY fits into the whole situation . doesnt it?

you are just saying, no it doesnt mean that, it doesnt mean that, by the grace of allah, you have said that u know arabic, then cant you see how koran says, "kud-khalat min kublihirrusul " (with no exception) , then how come these words are true for some of the prophets and false for others??

why have you not answered this question at all, despite the fact that i have asked it THREE TIMES?

and are your ulemaa more important then abu bakr and umer? and all the other sahaba? If the ayat means some of the prophets are alive (which it duznt, it clearly says, kad khalat min kablehirrusul!) then why didnt ANY of the sahaaba stand up and say "UMER, get up! all the prophets are nt dead, thus your point is right, that muhammad can also be alive" and why didnt ANY of the sahaba stand up and say to abu bakr "YOU are mentioning a WRONG verse according to the situation! you will make umer even more furious!"
it is clear that all the sahaba knew what the aayat meant, and all of them knew that all the prophets before Muhammad, peace be upon him have died!

You must know it too "kad khalat min kable-hir-rusul.. It is there for you to understand. dont listen to those mullahs, because they cannot even decide between there own 72 sects! they are more busy killing and fighting, and bombing, firing each other's mosques. please ask yourself this question, how can they be true ? and it is clear "kad-khalat min kablehirrusul! "

5) Jesus, a human being??

If jesus is a human being, he is dead!
because it is allah's rule that human beings have to live their lives, and then die, on earth(chapter 7 verse 25)!
and also it is allah's rule, that human beings cant climb the sky, (chapter 17, verse 92,93,94)

6) words of ulemaa , the real ones!

as i have already mentioned the things that took place after Muhammad's death, it is clear that the sahaaba believed in the death of jesus.
i have also given the example of hazrat ibn-e-abaas. Muhammad peace be upon him prayed for ibn-e-abaas, that allah may give him a special understanding of koran!
he has said "mutawaffaika" means "mumeetuka" .. i have explained above.

after the sahaaba come the taabieen, and they too said that jesus is dead!

i have mentioned the words of
i) imam abdul malik
ii) imam bokhari
iii) imam ibn-e-hazan

now some more from the tabieen:

the book majma-uj-jaar says,(translated)
"mojooda zamany kay aksar log yeh khayaal kertay hain, kay eesaa fot nahee huway, lekin imam malik farmaya kertay thay kay woh fot ho chukay hain!"

imam ahmad bin junbal says:
"jo shaks kisi maslay main ijmaah ka daawa karay, woh jhoota hai" (muslim-ul-saboot)
he said that becoz after the sahaaba, islam has spread so fast, that it is not possible to have an ijmah of all the ulemaa.

But the only thing that sahaba believed was that Jesus is dead, as i have explained above. the only ijmaah on jesus' death.. together with the death of Muhammad and all the other prophets before him, which all the sahaaba believed!

anyways, there is one personal message to you, niaz bhai,

about the ulemaa of our zamana, a sahih hadith says:
"... aapus main buhut ikhtalaaf ho ga, aur musalmaano kay buhut say firkay ho jaai(n) gay, aur ulemaa kee halat buhut kharaab ho jaye gee, hataa kay, aasman kay neechay ulemaa bad-tareen mukhlook hoo(n) gay.. islaam chaaro(n) taraf say masaib kay under ghir jaaye ga..."

these are one of the symptoms of the last zamana, which are true, together with others.. as you might yourself have witnessed.

my message is, if you dont believe in me, then its your choice, and i will still respectyou very much, but please dont believe the mullahs, please dont believe the so-called ulemaas of today.. becoz as i have already said above, hadith tells us, that if we cant find the right jama'at then we should run away from everything, but MUST NOT believe in the false ulemaas! if you think jamaat-e-ahmadiyaa is not the right jama'at.. then its your own choice to believe, but please dont believe in these ulemaas who have made all the world joke at islam! Believe in those ulemaa who brought islam on top of the world!

May allah be your protector!

[someone_else]

niaz bhai,
this topic has become very very long and causes me problems while loading.. please reply to me by starting a new topic, ahmadiyyat-part two
it will b very nice of you