Wow! Well balanced post. Welcome to GupShup Keyser Soze. Please, do stay a while.....
Nyahmadi For your information the "gutter version of Islam" that you are talking about is the fastest growing religion in the world and in the USA too.
As far as the discussion of being kafir is concerned, any one who changes the meaning of Kalima or who do not believe in kalima is not a muslim. And since Ahmadies dont believe in the kalima and that prophet Mohammad is the last prophet, they are not muslims. This is not very hard to figure out and all Muftis and Ulema believe on this.
At the same time since the kalima says that prophet Mohammad is the last massenger of Allah, this puts a great responsibility on us. We have to take the words of Allah forward. And we have to do it in the same way Prophet Mohamamd and his Sahaba did. Before Prophet Mohamamd came Allah sent 1,24000 prophets at different times and different places. And since rophet Mohamamd was the last prophet, when he died there were total of 1,24000 sahabas.
unity, faith, discipline
may the lord forgive us for our ignorance and arrogance.
if according to u ahmadi's are non muslim then they will be held responsible for their belief's just like we will be held for ours but pointing fingers doesnt change anything.all of us no matter what religion we came on this earth alone and we will leave this earth alone so stop saying stuff to others when u dont know whats going to happen to u on the day of judgement.
Proud Paki, I said Sufi’s version was a Gutter Version of Islam, and not the Islam as I understand it. I doubt that any sensible person believes in Sufi’s kinda version. But lets move on to what you said.
Why do you have an urge to tell others whether they are muslims or not? Do you feel insecure? And as far as Ulams and Muftis are concerned, they can shove their faith in Pig’s hiney. I don’t need a freaking Mulla telling me what I am, I can figure that out for myself. If you have identity problem, you can consult them.
While you are at it, could you tell us what Kalama do Ahmadis have? I don’t know what their Kalama is caz I don’t really pay much attention to the details.
It is a saying of Hazrat Eesa (Jesus Christ) that is used in this (western culture) a lot, maybe we should "Read" and "follow" it too.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
May Allah give us all patience to be tolerant towards our fellow human beings and Muslim brothers and sisters
[This message has been edited by Keyser Soze (edited July 19, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keyser Soze (edited July 19, 2000).]
i invite qadianis to look at history as history will speak for itself.Pukka desi has stated the facts from 100 years ago and mirzas actions cant be explained ie forcing himself on girls for marriage............its in damn history, how can you deny these facts.Its not opinions but fact.
if you guys want to keep denying the truth then fine but dont call yourself muslim and mislead others.
pleasse look at mirzas history, the truth is clear ask a neutral historian if you have to.
may god guide yous to the right path.
NY Ahmedi there is a book by Willaim Chittick called "The Sufi Path of Knowledge.". It is about Ibn Al'Arabi. I think you should read it. It is very nice and explains sufiism in a very nice way.
As far as your comment about Alims is concerned. If you get a book that tells you about all the different medical problems, and how to cure them, how to perform operations etc. would that mean that you will not need doctors? I dont think so. Most of us are not knowledgeable enough to interpret Quran, as to understand its meaning you have to understand the timing and many other things about each ayat before you can say what it means. Here I am not talking about any mullahs. I am talking about Alims. These Alims spend 10 years to study Islam (and additional two to become mufti) and they are like doctors. Under no circumstances can they be replaced and we need them. They have deep knowledge about Islam, Quran, Hadith, and fiqh.
As far as Ahmedi kalima is concerned it is the same as our kalima. The meaning is changed in this way that Mirza Qadiyani said that he is anohter form of prophet Mohammad. At some times he also said that he is hte Messiah and at others that he is Imam Mehdi, even though non of the signs of Imam Mehdi, as described by prophet Mohammad were in him.
I read a book about this issue long time ago, but unfortunately I dont remember hte detail. As i find it I will post it. But I think that this is all that is to it. I might be wrong in hte above discription, but I will post later when I find the book.
unity, faith, discipline