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...in heaven we have alcohol, we indulge in excess and luxury and music and each person can presumably have more than one partner
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I hate to think how many people may be disapointed to find out they sacrificed their fulfillment here on earth only to find out that heaven may be a place of spiritual rewards and not the simplistic view of booze, sex, excess and other carnal pleasures that cater to our lowest moral denominator.
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I hate to think how many people may be disapointed to find out they sacrificed their fulfillment here on earth only to find out that heaven may be a place of spiritual rewards and not the simplistic view of booze, sex, excess and other carnal pleasures that cater to our lowest moral denominator.
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you assume that those who obey Allah today do it for the booze, sex, excess and other carnal pleasures.
nevertheless, everybody doesnt visit the library for the same reason. some people are motivated by certain things, others by others. it would certainly be unfair to those who dont really care for literature to have heaven the equivalent of the state library (unless ofcourse they're genetically reengineered upon entry into heaven)
neither desire, spiritual or physical is 'lower' except from perspective. Rumi said a lot of his profound stuff when intoxicated.
Of course spiritual fulfillment is a higher calling than physical pleasures. Why else must a pious person live his whole life devoid of physical pleasures in order to please God? That is why it is prescribed to pray 5 times a day instead of having sex 5 times a day. That's why one fasts for a month instead of partying for a month during a holy month.
Surely heaven isn't like a library or movie theater where we pick and choose what awaits us in heaven based on our propensity to covet physical pleasures and lack of spiritual development. God would decide what our rewards should be and I don't think that because someone doesn't look at spiritual fulfillment as the end-all of human achievement, he will give them (what is considered on earth) immoral physical pleasures. Remember how angry God is over our moral indescretions? Why would he pollute heaven with the things that disgust him so much?
well there that is a difference in religion seminole. in your religion celibacy is highly regarded. in our religion it is at best highly discouraged, at worst a sin. in Islam, having sex with your wife actually earns you sawab (i dont know translation.. loosely positive points i guess). eating something that is halaal is also sawab. spending money pleasing your family is considered sawab. while we fast for a month, we are also religiously commended to enjoy eid. all of these arent spiritual pleasures, they're physical comforts, which we get sawab for.
ascetism is not a part of Islam. each person is encouraged to seek whatever bounties this earth provides that he desires, so long as that is within Islamic norms.
a pious person must not live his life devoid of physical pleasures, there is an extent in which we should humour our senses, if only to appreciate the beauty of this world. in our case, overindulgence, not indulgence is prohibited.
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God would decide what our rewards should be and I don't think that because someone doesn't look at spiritual fulfillment as the end-all of human achievement, he will give them (what is considered on earth) immoral physical pleasures. Remember how angry God is over our moral indescretions? Why would he pollute heaven with the things that disgust him so much?
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no doubt what angers Him today would still anger Him in Heaven. but we are told that we would recieve purified alcohol, one that doesnt lead to immorality. what is wrong with that, if what causes harm in a harmful substance is removed and then offered back to us? the likening of Heaven in my mind is that of Plato's Forms.. where everything on Earth was an impure manifestation of the true ideals. In Heaven we will have everything as per it should be. true beauty, true luxury, true pleasure, both physical and spiritual.
nevertheless we do not need to agree about what life in heaven will be as far as homosexuality is concerned. suffice to say, the question of what people with homosexual tendencies will recieve in afterlife can be answered with one word: Justice.
Just as what life in heaven will be like is debatable, so is what homosexuals will receive in the afterlife. Because I coudn't disagree with you more on both accounts. We all believe what we want to believe. I suppose if I were raised from a child being told that everything on earth is impure and only a weigh station until I die to receive extravagent physical pleasures, I would want to believe that as well. I just have a hard time believing the utlimate reward from living a pure and and pious life is booze and sex. Spirituality is so much more. In my mind to equate excess carnal pleasures as the ultimate reward makes us sound like animals.
Seminole, if we were told that we will have to pray 10 times a day and fast for 6 months every year in our afterlife; believe me no one will want to pray in this life.
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Just as what life in heaven will be like is debatable, so is what homosexuals will receive in the afterlife. Because I coudn't disagree with you more on both accounts. We all believe what we want to believe. I suppose if I were raised from a child being told that everything on earth is impure and only a weigh station until I die to receive extravagent physical pleasures, I would want to believe that as well. I just have a hard time believing the utlimate reward from living a pure and and pious life is booze and sex. Spirituality is so much more. In my mind to equate excess carnal pleasures as the ultimate reward makes us sound like animals.
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that is your mind then. to me i can accept that our physicality and the pleasures that come with it is infact a gift from Allah. spirituality does not come from denying yourself everything, but moulding your desires according to what Allah desires for you.
physical and spiritual pleasure is often synergistic. you'd be missing out on quite a bit of spirituality by just being a cathedral dweller. what kind of spirituality is it then that is out of touch with its human-ness?
I agree that earthly pleasures are a gift from God. That is why I believe that physical pleasures are to be enjoyed in moderation and one can still be close to God and live the life he wants us to. That is also why I believe he gave us this beautiful world, to enjoy the physical aspects of our existence. After death our physical bodies are discarded as we leave the physical world. That leaves us as spiritual creatures whose rewards and existence are spiritual, not physical. I know it doesn't sell as well as 72 virgins and a beautiful land of milk and honey, but I believe those are metaphors to describe the beauty of heaven in terms the uneducated and carnal man can relate to.
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The most perfect kind - like Jesus.
I agree that earthly pleasures are a gift from God. That is why I believe that physical pleasures are to be enjoyed in moderation and one can still be close to God and live the life he wants us to. That is also why I believe he gave us this beautiful world, to enjoy the physical aspects of our existence. After death our physical bodies are discarded as we leave the physical world. That leaves us as spiritual creatures whose rewards and existence are spiritual, not physical. I know it doesn't sell as well as 72 virgins and a beautiful land of milk and honey, but I believe those are metaphors to describe the beauty of heaven in terms the uneducated and carnal man can relate to.
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no, Jesus was human, and thus his spirituality was human too.
so you agree that physicality can be both pleasurable and blessed from Allah. there is nothing animalistic about what Allah prefers for us. and thus there is no inherent implausibility in heavenly pleasures involving both physical and spiritual pleasures. what motivates your argument then is that we will have a purely spirit-based existence in Heaven without a physical manifestation. that is not something we believe in.
as an aside, if you do not believe in heaven and hell as physical manifestations and merely spiritual places for spirits to dwell in, do you believe the story of Adam and Eve in Heaven to be a parable and it didnt actually happen?
hey u i did not say it did not exist back then. read between the lines seems like u didn’t eat your pig today.i said ALLAH(SWT)does not make any1 homo’it’s them who make themselves such as a society or where they r living.
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I agree that earthly pleasures are a gift from God. That is why I believe that physical pleasures are to be enjoyed in moderation and one can still be close to God and live the life he wants us to. That is also why I believe he gave us this beautiful world, to enjoy the physical aspects of our existence. After death our physical bodies are discarded as we leave the physical world. That leaves us as spiritual creatures whose rewards and existence are spiritual, not physical. I know it doesn't sell as well as 72 virgins and a beautiful land of milk and honey, but I believe those are metaphors to describe the beauty of heaven in terms the uneducated and carnal man can relate to.
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well, couldn’t agree more with you there. These are metaphors for the mind and body that seek physical pleasures. The key here is that all these "pleasures" can only be had if one has physical existence. I believe we can not imagine/comprehend the form we will be in when we are raised again. If we do not have a body, there will be no desire for these pleasures.
I do agree that some people might have homosexual tendencies due to their environment, or some other evils in the society. Others might have some other weaknesses like bad temper, greed, lying, addictions, vanity, hypocrisy etc.. We will be judged by how well we controlled these passions and rewarded accordingly. That is why Allah says that He alone is the Judge, and no one else has that authority. It is the same reason why there is a greater reward for self control at the prime of our youth when the desire is strong as appose to older age when these desires are relatively subdued.
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*Originally posted by ravage: *
no, Jesus was human, and thus his spirituality was human too.
so you agree that physicality can be both pleasurable and blessed from Allah. there is nothing animalistic about what Allah prefers for us. and thus there is no inherent implausibility in heavenly pleasures involving both physical and spiritual pleasures. what motivates your argument then is that we will have a purely spirit-based existence in Heaven without a physical manifestation. that is not something we believe in.
as an aside, if you do not believe in heaven and hell as physical manifestations and merely spiritual places for spirits to dwell in, do you believe the story of Adam and Eve in Heaven to be a parable and it didnt actually happen?
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Adam and Eve did definitely exist physically. The fact that they were put into this world as a punishment MIGHT imply that they got their human form once removed from heavens. What was their state in heavens, we (or at least I) do not know.
BTW, why do you believe that our existence in the hereafter will be a physical one? Let me pose another question to you. If my brother is sent to hell due to his bad deeds, while I am in heaven, would it be really heaven for me knowing that my brother is "burning" in hell?
Yes it will be a physical one.
After knowing the Hell u'll be very happy not to be there
For Jatt_Pathan
Yaar aey ki,Jatt wi tey pathan wi?
I agree with trooper 100% :k: . I can never be happy if my own brother is suffering, even if someone gives me every thing and tells me that be happy you are not in hell. That love for relatives and friends of this world will not be the same on the same in heaven and hell. Those feelings will be removed.
I believe that removing feelings of love and replacing with rivers of milk and honey is a great argument against the notion that heaven is some sort of decadent physical paradise.