Prove to me that God exists.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

Peace help_me

InshaAllah I have a few things to add to the wonderful replies the others have given you ...

FIRST PRINCIPLE)

You asked: Prove to me God exists
Answer: Wrong! It is not the Islamic position to prove the existence of God. The Qur'an talks about belief in God. Iman. This is a property which is shared by the faculty that allows us to imagine. It is to be used to focus ourselves in to a state that we can 'see' realise God (i.e. in prayer) or be conscious of Him. The proof required will be given when we see things 'with certainty of sight'.

So initially the question is wrong. The question to ask is show me how to confirm my faith in God.

SECOND PRINCIPLE)

Having said this of all the religions Islam builds the strongest bridge of testable evidence towards the ratification of the existence of God.

Consider a river ... The banks are to be crossed. Our side is the 'known' the far side is the ghaib or the 'unknown'. The bridge is what is built up by proof and this will always fall short of other side. The gap that remains is what has to be jumped over. The intuitive imaginative leap of faith. Islam makes this 'gap' very small.

When you fire an arrow from a distance the chance of getting the centre is slim, but up close with a firm grip and good bow, the chances increase.

THIRD PRINCIPLE)

Test:

The Qur'an is unique in that it tells us to test, how to test and to also instructs us to test it for truth. It tells us to test the 'creation', by pondering over it. It provides falsification tests for itself, and when we test the Qur'an thus far it has stood by and passes every time.

So let me give you one example of a test ...

The test of consciousness in links of unrelated discovered phenomena

This is quite complicated but I'll keep it brief. There are two types of phenomena ... those that are aribtary and those that are absolute. We look for absoluteness. There are reasons for this that we cannot go in to but I think you'll appreciate that absoluteness is a good criteria to look at.

In maths we find pi it is a discovery, but it cannot be defined numerically, it is a transcendental number. As with 'e' and 'i' and '1' is a fundamental unit, etc.
All of these unrelated things in fields of maths form an equation which is so harmonious it appears to be a consciousness that has ordained that beauty. There is no reason why that Mathematicians have found why these work, but they do. It is thus coined by some God's equation.

It doesn't let me post the URL ...

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

^^ The question isn't wrong for a non-believer. The answer is pretty simple, all he has to do is read the Quran and he'll know that the words used in the Holy Quran couldn't have been said by man. Those were the exact words of Cat Stevens now better known as Yusuf Islam when he converted back in the days.

-You all make it so complicated it's amazing.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

Excellent question, on what basis are you exempting god from this law?

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

Looks like you are as confused about the existance of god as LB and me, because instead of proving you are asking questions.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

Peace RoCKiSTaN

I think you will find that Yusuf Islam already believed in God prior to reading the Qur'an. You say the question is not true for a non-believer. I think you will find that 100% proof is not enough for some people. However, you do have a point, with regards to the Qur'an ... it is called the falsification test ... Principle 3 in my earlier post. He read it and saw that it is consistent with itself. That no man could have written the Qur'an because of the great accuracy in it, but the things happening to him in the background are not what we hear. In actual fact his heart was being expanded and Allah (SWT) was guiding him. He may have his own reason for it, but those reasons will not be enough for everyone.

At the end of the day ... the issue is not to attempt proving 100% the existence of God ... even if it can be done the person will still have to be guided by Allah (SWT). We are told time and again that without Allah (SWT) man is at a loss. That we cannot consider ourselves self sufficient and in Surah Fatihah we are constantly in request to Allah (SWT) to keep us guided.

The Qur'an talks about faith in God not in proving (100%) that God exists.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

Peace All

InshaAllah ... I shall post some points to focus on the third principle of my initial reply.

Consider this:
Qur'anic argument: That many gods cannot co-exist at the same time ... Reason: There will be much argumentation between the gods.

Look for:

a) Parallel consistencies
b) Contextual accuracies
c) Wisdom in the statement
d) Conclude authenticity of the claimant

a) Parallels ... Another Qur'anic claim is that God is Unique, this is a consistent parallel claim with the claim that 'many gods cannot exist'. So we have to conclude this is true.

b) Contextual accuracy ... i.e. is it really the case that if you had more than one god argumentation would result? Let's see ... Why do we have one boss? What would god A do to the followers of god B and vice-versa ... just read the stories of greek mythos and you will see that this again is ... TRUE. If there were more than one God there would be too much contest.

c) Wisdom ... so what if there is too much contest ... what then? Well then there would be destruction and annihilation. The harmony of creation would cease and existence would be nought. Since we exist and this is a preserved state, we can conclude that the wisdom in this line of argumentation is TRUE.

d) As there are three truths drawn from the above claim it must be TRUE that God would know this therefore the claim in the Qur'an is a strong candidate for being of divine origin. Howeve, at this stage it cannot be ruled out that man could have fluked this claim or that many wise men have developed this claim. However, we can say that ruling out the validity of the Qur'an's authenticity based on this verse would be FALSE.

More thoughts to come inshaAllah ...

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

AOA/Hi!

B4 I can say some thing on this issue from historical , logical , philosophical , mythical or other angle(s) , we need to have clear understanding of wether

1) GOD is a NECCESSITY or FACILITY? ( or none if some want to call it, while facility covers none).

2) what is zero in maths / life/logic?

3) what is infinity in life /math/logic?

Take care and Khuda hafiz

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

AOA

logic of zero:

zero means nothing generally e.g if I give u zero dollars, I am giving u nothing as zero means nothing. Similarly if I take zero dollars from u, I am taking nothing as zero means nothing.
If u r weighing some thing on scale and I put zero grams of food ( or any thing), I will not be able to change the balance of the scale as I am putting zero grams which means nothing. Wether i put zero grams on one side or the other as zero means nothing.
Now if i put zero on the left of ONE i-e
zero one ( zero on the left of one) , one remains one as I am putting nothing beside one and is understandable.
but
when i put zero on the right side i-e
one zero ( zero on the right of one), one does not remain one but becomes TEN.
I WONDER HOW CAN ONE GET CHANGED AND BECAME TEN BY PUTTING NOTHING (ZERO) ON THE RIGHT.

if some one can define logic of zero, I will be thankfull.

Take care and khuda hafiz

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

The reply is so simple, i.e.,
You please "Prove to me that God does not exist".
Your reply will be the answer on the basis of a Hadith that HE is near to you.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

No way to prove that God exists. It is a belief and all attempts to prove it ultimately fail. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

The Rational Foundations of Belief in the Existence of God and His Transcendent Uniqueness.

Suppose that you survived an air crash at sea and washing upon an island shore you walked along the beach to discover a watch ticking away. Would you conclude that some human being had recently been there and left that watch on the shore, or would you assume that the winds and the waves and the blazing sun had acted in concert and fortuitously to marshal the elements into the marvellous artefact of that ticking watch? Of course, you would conclude the former. Then what about the beach and the one standing on it and the sun and the wind and the waves and the sky, may we conclude that that supreme harmony and awesome beauty was the product of some purposeless haphazard process keeping in mind universe is infinitely more complex and perfect than a ticking watch; indeed, the wing of a fly is more complicated than it, nay a single strand of DNA in the wing of a fly, or any molecule of its protein. Indeed, competent researchers and mathematicians have demonstrated that a strand of DNA is more complex than arrangement of letters in a book like Tolstoy's War and Peace. Think what are the chances that a machine generating random letters might one day type out the text of War and Peace? Mathematicians who are experts in probability insist that even in a billion years a random letter-generator could not type out a page of a beautiful and meaningful book like War and Peace let alone a whole book. In fact Richard Dawkins, an outspoken proponent of neo-Darwinist theory, wrote in his book Climbing Mount Probable (1996) that the nucleus of any cell contains a digitally coded database larger in information content than all 30 volumes of the Encyclopaedia Britannica put together. The impossibility of random processes producing extremely complex and interdependent systems has been capably demonstrated by mathematicians like William Demski in his The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities (1998) and in his Intelligent Design (1999).
In our example above of the beach and the watch it is essential to bear in mind that although both the beach and the watch are products of deliberate premeditated design the difference between a designer of a watch and the designer of the universe is infinite and absolute because while the first merely manipulated the elements, the second brought the elements into existence in the first place and them formed and empowered everything that manipulates. Our example is a picturesque representation of one of the rational arguments for the existence of God. It can be expressed in more concisely logical terms thus: The world is designed; everything designed requires a designer; therefore, the world has a designer. Or we can phrase the proposition in another way: The world is originated; everything that is originated requires an originator; therefore the world has an originator. Or alternately: The world is caused; everything that is caused requires a cause; therefore the world has a cause.
Keep in mind as I invoke some logical principles that logic is merely the science of how to think correctly, or in other words what conclusions can be deduced from certain types of premises and what constitutes valid premises. Whether or not those premises concern what is of this world or what is beyond it is immaterial; their validity depends on what they propose not on what their subject is. Now the conclusion that the world has a designer or a primal cause that is not part of it is not dogma; it??s cognition. Let us go back and confirm the validity of the basic premises in the above syllogisms (lines of reasoning). The reason we say that we and all created things have come out of nonexistence is that we know intuitively that neither we nor other created things had to exist, for if they had to exist they would not be subject to extinction and change. (We will return to this point presently.) We say that things are originated or caused because we observe that everything in creation is in a state of change and every change is the origination of a new state and the extinction of a previous state.
That beginning is an origination, a production and an effect; it therefore needs one to originate, produce, or cause, its new state and that is the necessary existent which men call God. It is futile to claim that other originated things, in particular the previous states of all things, are the sufficient cause of those effects because they are also effects. Even if we assume a chain of cause and effect going back for billions and billions of years we are stuck with supposing a primal cause (to use Aristotle's term) which is self-sufficient and self-existent and not merely an effect caused by something else, and furthermore, which is outside the entire chain of originated chain of cause and effect since after all causes are merely effects. This intuition overwhelmed me when I was eighteen years old studying physical and biological sciences at university; it suddenly dawned on me that even if we might explain the development of life from inanimate matter by a supposed evolutionary process, it was impossible to explain the emergence of matter from the void of nonexistence except by supposing that necessary and eternal existent which men call God.
No doubt this matter has been the subject of an age-old controversy between theists and materialists, for materialists insist that the world has always existed. The theists claim that there has always existed an unchangeable, independent and self-existent and self-sufficient being who has given all other beings that are or ever were their origin, while materialists claim that there has been an infinite succession of changeable and dependent beings produced from one another in an endless progression without any original cause at all. It is either one or the other because a third proposition has never been proposed nor can it be conceived. Now if we consider the claim of the materialists we see that what they in fact propose is an infinite progression of cause and effect that is in fact an endless series of phenomena dependent one on another. Since the series that they conceive includes all dependent and changeable things that are or ever have been, it is clear that the whole series cannot have any physical cause from without, for the series comprises all physical phenomena; nor can the series have any cause from within itself for we have already supposed that the existence of nothing in this series is necessary, that is, nothing in the series is self-existent but dependent on what preceded it. At the same time while no part in this series exists of itself independently and necessarily, neither does the whole exist independently and necessarily since self-sufficient or necessary existence is an eternal, essential, intrinsic attribute, not an acquired, originated, extrinsic, relative, or accidental one. Necessary existence, or what theologians and philosophers call necessity for short, is eternal and immutable, not something that might be acquired, for what is produced or acquired is clearly caused or originated not eternal. The opposite of necessary existence is contingent existence. The first term implies that type of existence that we intuit cannot not be, while the second type implies the type of existence that we intuit may be just as it may not be. The first is independent, eternal and immutable, while the second (contingent existence) is dependent, originated (that is, qualified by a beginning) and in a constant state of change. Keeping this in mind, we can appreciate that the supposed infinite succession of dependent beings that the materialists (of whatever stripe they be) propose is a series that neither has any original cause, nor can it be the self-sufficient cause of its own existence for nothing in it is necessary or self-existent. It is a clear contradiction: something caused, yet without any cause, or to state it concisely: an effect without an efficient (that is, what effects it in the language of the philosophers). Samuel Clarke (1675-1729) pointed out that the materialists supposition of an infinite succession of changeable and dependent beings [that is, phenomena] produced from one another in an endless progression without any original cause at all is only a driving back from one step to another and, as it were, removing out of sight the question concerning the ground or reason of the existence of things, for as he observed whether we maintain that there is one being which is neither necessary nor self-existent, or whether we maintain an infinite series of dependent beings, neither has any original cause although both are dependent by definition and that is absurd. However, the absurdity of proposition of one dependent effect without any cause is more apparent in the minds of most than the proposition of a series of dependent beings without any original cause. The English philosopher-theologian William Wollaston (1659-1724) illustrated the absurdity of this proposition with a fine example: Suppose a chain hung down from the heavens from an unknown height so that what it was hung upon was not visible. It remained there fixed in its location without descending. Now suppose one were to ask what supported this chain. Would it be sufficient to answer that the lowest link was held by the one above it and the one above it by the one above it ad infinitum? Of course not, for one would need to now what supports the whole. Claiming that the chain is infinite does not resolve the fact that it needs a support, for how absurd to claim that a finite chain needs a support but an infinite one does not. You should understand that the proposition of an infinite succession is the essential argument of all materialists. The mechanism they propose for the relation between the individual phenomena in the series is not relevant, for we have shown that the whole series of relationships whatever they suppose them to be is absurd and impossible. Thus, however they suppose that inanimate matter became organic molecules like protein and RNA and DNA and so on, and then that became animate unicellular organisms which in turn supposedly became multicellular organisms which became primitive invertebrates and so on is irrelevant.
Now apart from the fact that even if the chain of phenomena were infinite it would still be dependent and originated, there is another glaring problem with the proposition of an infinite succession, for while infinity may exist in our imaginations it does not exist in actuality. No doubt my claim may jolt you as it did me when I first heard it, but it is clearly the case. You can start from today and for the rest of your life write bigger and bigger numbers but by the time you die you will still have a finite number. Set up a computer to continuously raise a number to its own power so that it soon generates astronomically big numbers, but by the time it wears down or by the time technological civilization extinguishes itself it will only have generated an infinite number. We intuit that quite naturally because we know that what is composed of finite parts can only be finite. That has traditionally been illustrated in real theology by considering two progressions of phenomena: one from this moment back forever, and another from the moment of, say, your birth forever. Now take these two progressions and imagine that they are put side by side. You can imagine that ever phenomena is numbered and counted. Will not the sequence which goes back forever from the present forever exceed the sequence which goes back forever from the moment of your birth by the finite extent of your age? No doubt it will since the number of phenomena that have accompanied your existence from birth till present is clearly finite. Since the difference between the two progressions is finite, the two progressions must themselves be finite.
Be that as it may, I remind you that even if we concede that the sequence is infinite it does not avail the materialists because our supposition is that the chain is composed of an infinite number of contingent, originated and dependent phenomena; therefore, no matter how long the sequence might be every unit of it, that is every individual phenomena is dependent on what might cause it, originate it, and endow it with its particular qualities instead of other qualities. I have already stated as much; I have only restated it to remind you and to emphasize it.
A lucid example has been given by Muslim theologians to illustrate the point that the length of the sequence does not matter. If you instruct your computer to write out rows of zeroes, will not its significance remain zero even if you programmed the computer to produce zeroes forever? (However, it will only be able to do it, until it breaks down or as long as you pay the hydro bill.) But if you put a single integer between one and nine, even just a one, at the left of those zeroes, will not that change the matter dramatically? Of course it will because now you will have quantity whereas before you had nothing. No matter how many zeroes we might write we would never get quantity until we put a real number at their left. In the same a lie does not become truth even if we add to it more lies or innumerable lies. And in the same way how will originated phenomena (that is, phenomena each one of which is preceded by nonexistence) become necessary (that is, nonexistence is impossible for it) just because their number became large or let us for the sake of argument say infinite? It is impossible; therefore, we must suppose an independent, self-existent, self-sufficient, immutable, transcendent and necessary being in existence before the sequence of dependent phenomena, and in short a being who was not preceded by nonexistence. The English call that being God. The cognition of God is not a projection of the mind; rather it is a logical necessity, an objective truth that the mind is capable of intuiting definitively, not an inconclusive metaphysical speculation, nor a subjective phenomenon that the mind invents. In the same way that we can comprehend intuitively and logically what is necessary for the divine being, we can intuit what attributes He must have. In general, He is described by every attribute of perfection, for if He had any imperfection it would be inconceivable that He could have brought this universe out of nonexistence. In particular, we intuit that he is powerful, knowing, and willing because were He not both powerful and knowledgeable, He would not have been able to create the universe and then maintain it through every moment, and were He not willing He could not choose its existence instead of its nonexistence at every moment, nor could He choose to endow every existent thing with the attributes with which they are endowed rather than other conceivably possible attributes. Furthermore, we maintain that He is living, for were He not living his power, knowledge and willing would not have any meaning. We also maintain that He is seeing, hearing, and speaking. These attributes are considered perfections in human beings whom God created; it is therefore inconceivable that He who endowed them with these attributes should Himself be deprived of such perfection. Nonetheless, His attributes are utterly different from our attributes that bear the same names because His attributes are necessary, eternal, and transcendent. He has known and willed and empowered since all eternity, yet his knowledge, His will and His empowerment are one and do not change, and they are perfect beyond any need to become perfected. He knew before there existed anything to be known, and He knows all that might have been were He to have willed it. His knowledge did not become more complete when the things that He knew came into existence. While human knowledge is dependent on the existence of the things to be known and unfolds gradually and is subject to disappearance and change, the knowledge of God does not have any such imperfection. He knows what stirs inside cells and in the farthest stars, the movement of every atom and molecule of existence; He knows the whispering in the depth of our souls, every secret agony, our ennui, our bliss, all has been know to Him through all eternity. How could it be otherwise when every contingent thing is continually in need of Him to sustain its existence and to create its forthcoming states?
Similarly, He sees and hears in a transcendent way in preeternity without the need of any organ and without the phenomena of rays of light or waves of sound, and without their being any distance or direction between Him and what He sees and Hears and yet without Him being present there either. He saw and heard all things before the things that might be seen, heard even existed. As with his knowledge, His sight and hearing is one and indivisible. His attribute of seeing and hearing does not acquire anything new upon the creation of new sights and sounds; rather, He as already heard and seen all things since all eternity. Know that this must be so, for were God to undergo any change, or were anything to happen in His being, that would mean that He was originated and contingent and thus not the necessary existent. Like all other attributes, we cannot imagine how God hears and sees in preeternity; however, we know that He must for He is perfect in both being and attribute. Furthermore, we maintain that God speaks because the ability to communicate one's thoughts and will is a perfection among humans while the inability to do so is regarded by them as a defect. Muslim scholars say that the speech of God refers to the speech of the divine self. Having said this I should point out that many of our scholars of the opinion that the last three attributes that I have mentioned are not known by reason directly but through true revelation. Since I have not yet discussed the rational basis of revelation and what distinguishes true revelation from false, I did not want to anticipate myself. For the time being let us assume that can be intuited by reason, and then leave the discussion of revelation for another occasion. To continue, I should say that the speech of God cannot be heard for it is one and preeternal like all His transcendent attributes. Yet God revealed His eternal speech to those He chose as prophets, for He commissioned the Archangel Gabriel to reveal to the prophet words and sounds that indicate that eternal speech communicating to them something of His knowledge and His will. While we also call this revealed speech the word of God, the letters and sounds that indicate that eternal speech are originated. What God revealed to Moses was called the Torah; what He revealed to David was called the Psalms; what He revealed to Jesus was called the Bible; and what He revealed to Muhammad was called the Quran.
The last of God's attributes is creation; it comprehends every type of act including annihilation, anger, love, provision, reward and punishment. God acted in preeternity and while His act is one and indivisible, the manifestation of His eternal act is multiple and it appears in time by His power and according to His will. Furthermore, His act is manifested in other than Himself while the acts with which He empowers His creatures are manifested in themselves. All that happens in this world and the next is the manifestation of God's preeternal act. This is the secret to understanding how God acts and yet does not undergo any change. Let me remind you that while we intuit what is necessary for Him in His being, His attributes and His act, we cannot imagine how He exists, or how He is, or how He acts. How can what is created out of nothing and exists in time and space ever comprehend what creates and exists beyond time and space without having any of the attributes of bodies or other created things? How can what was preceded by nonexistence comprehend that which was not preceded by it?
From the foregoing you should now be able to understand that:
1. God is not a body, nor force, nor energy; rather, He is the creator of force and of time and space and energy and spirit and all that exists in our beings and around us. Our inability to understand the nature of His being does not preclude our certain knowledge of His existence and what is necessary, impossible and possible for Him.
2. We must not assume that God is like us; rather we intuit that logically and necessarily He is absolutely and utterly dissimilar from us, and that is the correct meaning of the term divine transcendence.
3. True faith does not mean making believe, nor is it opposed to reason; rather it is engendered by reason when reason is made pure by the will to know the truth.
4. Materialism is make-believe; it defies the edicts of reason and contradicts the evidence of this contingent and originated universe. Thus, the term faith in the way you and many people in the modern West have used it, applies to reductive materialism not to intuitive belief in the necessary and transcendent God. Validating Materialism is what Darwinism is mainly about.
5. God is not a subjective matter. We intuit His necessary existence objectively and a priority. The tongue of our existence continually declares His reality. Its idiom is the most articulate of idioms for it wells up at the source of our being. Those who, when God is mentioned, ask the question Whose God? betray their delusion that God exists merely as a subjective reality in the minds of men and that men are the creators of God. The truth of the matter is human intelligence declares that there is one transcendent God: my God, your God, the God of all that is, all that was, and all that ever will be.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

One cannot prove subtle things in life. No one can prove if pain exists, hunger exists, thirst exists, thought exists, or that they themselves exist. What we see, smell or hear, touch or taste, nothing can be proven to be real. As all that senses experiences, could be illusion of brain created from signals brain receives. One can even say that all what is happening around us, including our own existence, is illusion of soul and existence of body and brain is itself all illusion.

What we experience in this world is actually experience of our brain that can be produced artificially or due to illusion. What we see, smell, hear, taste, or touch, it get confirmed because our brain confirms that. One can say that all what we experience may or may not be real, no one knows, but that is what we feel because that is what brain wants us to feel. People we communicate may be there or maybe illusion of our brain.

No one can even say with certainty that they themselves really exist or they are creation of illusion in super brain of another entity. Who knows, all one is experiencing is illusions. So, if one cannot prove such mundane things, how can anyone prove that Allah exists?

But then from personal feelings, logical arguments and evidences existing that abounds all around us, existence that we can feel using our senses, can make us deduce with confirmation that Allah exists.

*Thus, right question from anyone should not be to prove if God exists, as that question itself is ridiculous. *

 **Right question** should be enquiry asking reasons that can deduce if God exists, and that is valid enquiry. The reason being, proof is impossible but deduction is possible and that is what matters. Islam also demands that a Muslim should deduce that Allah exists. That is why we are asked to have Imaan (faith) on Allah. This faith could be so certain that we can say that we have Yaqeen on Allah, but that yaqeen is level of ultimate Imaan, not Yaqeen on its own right.

For instance: A level of Imaan is aynul Yaqeen, it means that a person has Imaan (faith) as if a person has seen Allah with his own eyes.

Haq-ul-Yaqeen (the ultimate level of Imaan): means a person has Imaan (faith) as if a person has ultimate believe on the existence of Allah (believe that is possible if one confirms it with intelligence, all senses, and beyond)

Answer is simple: That is, there are evidences abound all around the world we live, that can make a person easily deduce using senses, with utmost certainty, that Allah exists.

[Though, there are some people, while still living in this world, have crossed the boundary of illusions, senses, feelings and deductions, managed to peek into other world, and learned the reality of many things including the reality of soul and existence of God, but than no such person would expose themselves or would come to show anyone that reality, as it is impossible to show that experience of reality to others, unless God wishes so.

Thus, for most people that are living, they can use intelligence and senses, to deduce existence of God, from evidences that abounds all around them, as that is the way God has made it for people in this world, until death].

Re: Prove to me that God exists.


How can you decide which is the right question and which is wrong. As you have a stand point, I believe it's very valid question and straight answer to it is "No there is no proof but there are indications". I don't believe in changing the question to suit the answer


So if we carry the same line of thought in the negatives as well.
Seen. No
Touched. No
Felt. No
Tasted. No
Now can we deduce that God do not exist. WRONG.
I don't think this will be the right reasoning which you have given above.

As far as I am concerned for a person who is religious these logics, proofs, theories are all meaningless at the end of the day. People believe what they believe on their faith. Faith is opposite of fact.

If you already have fact would you require faith then. NO.

Its all part and package of faith my friend. A person who lives in South America and believes in Voodoo has also seen the other side. They are also entitled to claim whatever they want.

Re: Prove to me that God exists.

[quote]
How can you decide which is the right question and which is wrong. As you have a stand point, I believe it's very valid question and straight answer to it is "No there is no proof but there are indications". I don't believe in changing the question to suit the answer
[/quote]
Why I said that when talking regarding God, one can not ask prove but ask deduction?

It can be explained with example. Suppose you and your friend go to Antarctica. There you found a cigarette bud on the ground (that your friend has not seen) and said to your friend that you believe that human came to this place in near past. If your friend ask you to prove that, he is wrong. He can only ask you that how you can deduce that? [It is because your friend can also see that no one is there].

Nevertheless, you cannot prove to him what you deduced. You only deduced from the evidences you noticed there and would show that to your friend, making him deduce same thing. If he uses logical thinking and intelligence, he would say 'yes, you are right, human did come to that place in near past'.

[If your friend wants baseless arguments, he would question you and would ask that, how you can say that? Is it not possible that this cigarette bud has flown there, 2000 miles from Australia or Argentina, or few hundred miles from any passing ship?]

Proof needs evidence or confirmation using senses. Or justification using some sort of verification.

Pain, hunger, weakness, or subtle things cannot be proved to others, as others cannot see pain, hunger, weakness, etc in someone. No one can justify that they have such subtle things to others through any sort of verification using senses or proofs. Same can be said regarding God, that God is such a subtle thing that God cannot be proved using senses or any sort of verifications. But it does not end there:

Deduction needs logical thinking and reasoning, figuring out something, presumption, etc using lot of pondering and intelligence.

Now, we can reason, figure out, or presume that someone has pain, hunger, weakness, etc by seeing the condition of a person. That means we can deduce that a person has such subtle things, without prove of it (condition cannot be undeniable proof or confirmation, but a source for deduction). Same way, God can be deduce from looking into nature and using logical reasoning intelligently to deduce the existence of God.

[quote]
So if we carry the same line of thought in the negatives as well.
Seen. No
Touched. No
Felt. No
Tasted. No
Now can we deduce that God do not exist. WRONG.
I don't think this will be the right reasoning which you have given above
[/quote]
For deduction, one does not rely on senses. One relies on evidences that after logical reasoning, confirms to intellect of a person that something exists or something does not exist. Seeing, smelling, felling, hearing, tasting, do not count here. Circumstantial evidence and surroundings that abounds in nature, and other undeniable evidences based on reasoning counts, that only intellect of a person can evaluate, and from there that person deduces, that God exists or not.

[quote]
As far as I am concerned for a person who is religious these logics, proofs, theories are all meaningless at the end of the day. People believe what they believe on their faith. Faith is opposite of fact.

If you already have fact would you require faith then. NO.
[/quote]
Well true, many have blind faith (could be called primitive faith) and nothing can change that. People can have belief that monkey that is jumping on the tree is God. They could believe anything God, be they hills, snakes, cows, mouse, rivers, Ghosts, imaginative figures, idols, anything they see, feel, or assume, using their senses or myth, without reasoning or using intelligence. It is primitive form of beliefs that one can call ‘blind faith’, based on presumption but that exists without deduction using logical reasoning and intelligence.

Well, many have blind faith on one God, without any logical reasoning and use of intelligence. This type of blind faith is same as another person believing that monkey is God, without any logical reasoning and use of intelligence. In the end, both are same, regardless of what they believe, as their belief is due to their circumstances, accident of birth, and background. There is nothing big deal about such believers or what such believer beliefs, right or wrong does not matter.

Thus, true or false belief is immaterial and important is that what led a person to have certain beliefs. Is the belief based on blind faith or it has some logical thinking and use of intelligence. [In Quran, the story of Ibrahim (AS) portrays this very well, telling us that Ibrahim (AS) led to belief on Allah using logical thinking and intelligence].

[quote]
ts all part and package of faith my friend. A person who lives in South America and believes in Voodoo has also seen the other side. They are also entitled to claim whatever they want.
[/quote]
I don’t know what they can see on the other side? As most mortals cannot see anything on the other side, that is why I put my statement regarding exceptional experiences in bracket, because that is exceptional happenings, not normal.

Nevertheless, when a person determines God using logical reasoning and intelligence, resulting deduction becomes obvious for all with intelligence (if they use it without pre-conceived idea and bias mind) to reach same conclusion. In such situation, where logical reasoning and intelligence is used to deduce God, myths and blind faith easily gives way to truth.