So what are they? Thusfar, the proponents here on gupshup simply like the idea because the fundos hate it. That’s a rather stupid reason to support a policy.
I can only think of negative consequnces as a result of Pakistani-Israeli ties:
By essentially turning a blind eye to Israeli occupation, Pakistan pretty much looses any moral validity to their arguments gainst Indian occupation of Kashmir
Israel is unlikely to support Pakistan on the Kashmiri issue as it would be self-contradicting vis-a-vis it’s own occupation of Palestinian territories
Israel is a nation that is currently aiding and arming India with advanced weapons, such as the Phalcon early warning radar and the Arrow anti-Ballistic missile system. These pose a strategic (not merely a tatcitical) threat to Pakistan. This armament of India will not stop if Pakistan recognizes Israel, nor is it likely that a nation America considers on the verge of being a failed state likely to get such systems.
Ties with Gulf Arab states (which do heavily finance Pakistan), never mind the leftist regimes of Egypt or even the Palestinain Authority, may be strained if Pakistan goes too far too fast. On the other hand, Israel is unlikely able to provide financial assitance to Pakistan.
This will hardly raise Pakistan’s stature in either the West or the Muslim world. On the contrary, the West will simply dismiss this as a facade of moderation for a regime that already tolerates extreamism.
If indeed the new policy shift is due to Pakistani politicians allegedly looking after the nation’s own interest, can someone please telll me what these interests are?
Point 1, so going back that, should we stop recognizing great china too?
Point 2, we arent doing it for Israel’s support on Kashmir
Point 3, how can you predict the future? If we offer them the moolah, they will sell that stuff to us too, thats whats predictable, not the fairytales you’ve been dreaming about
Point 4, as if the existing relations are something to cherish lol, and yeah dont they recognize Israel too?
Point 5, then be it, right now they think we are some hot headed fundos, it will be good for us if they realize we still have some sane people running the show
Point 6, the interesting being → stop kissing arabob rears. Recognizing a country thats there, and recognized by country makes sense, even if u guys say they are doing this to make some people happy.
The parallells between Kashmir and Palestine are obvious and grand. Historical claims of a greater China, however, are a bit more accurate and needless to say, the parallells aren’t there.
Why are we “doing it” is a rather good question at this point in time…
Can YOU predict the future? Our dealings with other states, in particular Russia, have shown us that this is not the case. Israel, for a variety of reasons, is most likely to follow this pattern. Needless to say, India can buy more and it’s highly unlikely Israel will upset a large client for doing a bit of business with a small fry.
Keep dreaming.
The operative words there were too far too fast. There is little danger of this, though, as Pakistan has taken Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria into confidence on this matter.
Useless.
But this doesn’t answer the question. Same old crap about kissing arab rears. What are the advantages? What interests are being served?
I think youre happy with 'kissing arab rears', as you put it aptly. I think its about time we stop doing that, and treat every country equally. You are so concerned about Arabs (your so called point 7) and their ties with Pakistanis, why dont you ask those Arabobz to denouce Israel first then? Nothing changes if we recognize Israel, except that little stamp on the passport. Also you keep talking about 'no financial benefits from Israel if we recognize them', tell me then whats there to loose then, I mean we dont get any benefits now either.
Kashmir isnt a problem if Pakistan reserves full recognition of Israel until they resolve the Palestinian issue which is what they appear to be doing...
What exactly ARE the benifits? Not having anything to loose sounds more like a gamble than an identifiable benifit.
Not all Arab states are the same, and at no time in history has Pakistan ever “kissed Arab rears”, as you put it. There is a functional relationship between Pakistan and the Gulf Arab states that I don’t see a country like Israel matching any time soon.
If you don’t like my “so-called” points, I would suspect you would have at least something to contribute to the contrary, rather than simply dismiss them outright because you apparently know better. If you indeed do, share the knowledge dude.
Now, what’s the harm? Currently, no harm done. But full-blown recognition of Israel (probably a long shot, anyway) could be a potentially stupid move with no benifit. So the question is to those who are advocating full recognition…why?
Without drawing into pros & cons, Pakistan has said that its position on Israel is no recognition until a palestinian state is established with its capital in Jerusalem.
The latter condition is one that Sharon and just about every other Israeli politician has ruled out, so there will be no recognition.
Ok let me throw that back to you, what do we loose if we recognize them? Like mad-s said, the pak administration wont do it anytime soon, because they still lack the guts to take such a move, but these meetings etc will continue to happen behind back doors but just to keep the halwa khors (matooz) happy they wouldn go out of their way and recognize them.
It doesn't matter what we say are 'pros' and 'cons'. Moving Pak closer to Israel will get Musharraf another pat on the head from America,thus it shall be.
Those who rule by force,ie.Dictators don't care what the people think.
Indeed, such is the party line. Now, any third grader can make this inference…so what’s up with the Pakistani establishment? Why bother going ahead with normalization if recognition is not in the cards…
Of course I would bring Mush into it, he is running Pakistan and no policy, foreign or otherwise would be done without his say so…how could you possibly comment on a major issue in Pakistan without mentioning the ruler of Pakistan?
forget palestinians and arabs...lets get down to the nitty gritty...HOW MUCH? $2B, $6B? We all know all these silly policies in Pakistan about brotherhood and siht are just a ruse for jacking up the price. I mean, we re not talking about principled actions. Look at the talitubbies...a fist full of dollars and "abay..tu kaun hai?"
This seems to be a win win situation for Pakistan.. We reserve full recognition thus placating the hard core element within the country, but at the same time we score points internationally by atleast talking to them.. That US Jewish lobby is rather influential and isnt it about time some of them startng to see us in a more friendly light...
IMO at this juncture of engagement, Pakistan plans to achieve only three objectives:
1) Possibly neutralise the Israeli-Indian nexus.
2) Improve the image of Pakistan. This is very important because, although the government of Pakistan has done some excellent planning, we are still not getting the desired results, most importantly; foreign imvestment due to our fundoo image around the world.
3) In broader terms, its a signal to the Israeli government as well, that if they keep withdrawing from the occupied land they will recieve some support of some form from some major Muslim countries.
Well said and same thing will happen to Pakistan once the recognition ceremony is over. Don’t know why people forget history even though history keeps repeating itself.
Anyway I am not saying we should recognise Israel state or we should not however my concern is if we do, do you really think Israel will walk the talk? Look at the Americans they betrayed and ditched us after the Soviet/Afghan war. Even still they are not trustworthy even though Pakistan being alae with them on war on terrorism.
And here we are talking about Israel whom even our religion says not to trust on them. In my opinion in any case either we recognise them or not things will not change for Pakistan (it may for Israel in case we recognise them). And people are so obsesed that if they recognise Israel, than Israel will provide/give military or other aids to Pakistan (do you really think Israel would do that and that too to a Muslim country?). Do you not trust on Allah(swt) and should have faith in your religon and should ask for help from Allah(swt) instead of Israel?
Well said, those who think Israel is all of a sudden going to lavish Pakistan with money, weapons and AIPAC is going to take up the Pakistani cause if Pak recognises Israel are kidding themselves.
This move is only for Mush to increase US support for his regime, no benefits of any significance will come from it for the people of Pak, apart from losing respect in the Islamic world.
