Prophethood within Islam: In the Light of Koran

Re: Re: Re: Re: Prophethood within Islam: In the Light of Koran

So you mean to say, whoever follows Huzur :saw: will get a company of prophets, martyrs, righteous in Jannat but will never be blessed by Allah in this world of all these statuses.

If that’s the case, then since last 1400 years, keeping aside prophethood, there is no righteous, no martyr, and no Siddiq from the ummat of Muhammad :saw:? That’s not the reward one could expect from following greatest of the prophets, greatest of the books and greatest of the religions.

For one last time, this PARTICULAR verse tells about ONE of the rewards one will get on Judgement day if he/she follows Allah swt and Prophet Mohammed PBUH, the reward will be the company of Prophets, Martyrs, Righteous etc.

Try reading again if you don't get it. This verse is not addressing "blessings" in this life.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
For one last time, this PARTICULAR verse tells about ONE of the rewards one will get on Judgement day if he/she follows Allah swt and Prophet Mohammed PBUH, the reward will be the company of Prophets, Martyrs, Righteous etc.

Try reading again if you don't get it. This verse is not addressing "blessings" in this life.
[/QUOTE]

I can't find "ONE" of the rewards in this verse. I am quoting the verse again. Can you underline the part where according to you, it says "ONE" reward?

4: 70. And whoso obeys ALLAH and this Messenger shall be among those on whom ALLAH has bestowed HIS blessings - the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

It's not my job to send prophets. Ask this question to Allah Almighty.

IHow unfortunate Ummat-e-Muhammadi would be if one denies blessings of continuation of prophethood.
[/QUOTE]

I mean to say what Mirza sahib says about that .. as he seems to have revelations all the time.. were there any revelations ti him that didnt regard his great place in universe.. what he said was he last prophet? or there were prophets between him and Muhammad (PBUH) or after him?

Ummat-e- Muhammadi is not unfoirtunate but greatly blessed that message of Allah would remain till end of times in safe Quran.. why we would need prophet if message of Allah is safe and not a word changed in quran.. we r blessed that we follow Muhammad (PBUH) and his sunnah and not hang pictures of someone else on our walls and follow him..

Agreed. So there is no prophet after Muhammad :saw:. Not even Isa :as:?

I've seen the Ahmadiyya jamaat people always insisting on how they want to understand 4:69..

The verse does not explicitly prove future prophethood. It talks about 'be in the company'.. no timeframes. It also does not talk about bestowing any titles on anybody nor limiting anything to anybody.

The verse simply states paraphrased that whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger he will be in the same 'company', 'status', or would get the same 'reward' as will people whom Allah has favored.. an example of these people is given; Prophets, the saints, the martyrs, truthful righteous ..

this really doesn't give any proof of future prophethoods..

Before even arguing the other verses, greater scrutiny us required by all of us to determine what is meant by Prophet and Messenger and understand the differences.. therein lies the real debate first.

If u dont believe Isa (AS) wont come again it doesnt make any difference.. whats important is message of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is for end of times.. second coming of Isa (AS) has nothing to do with flood of messaengers that u believe will come .. including Mirza.. coming of Isa (AS) is not a basic faith element of muslims but prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as last messenger on earth is ! u can follow Mirza.. hang his pic on ur wall.. ask him for guidence .. and follow his sunnah..its up to u..

Mr. Degas,

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You are making Ahmadis like worshippers of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, worshiping his pictures and asking him for guidance like the Hindus do infront of their gods.

It is one of the stupidest remark I have ever heard!

Mr. Degas,

Just go to any Molvi in Pakistan and then tell him that it is not compulsary to accept Hazrat Isa on his second advent. I am sure that you would be declared non-muslim on the spot and would be lavishing in a prison for blasmphemy. If you don't believe just try it once in Pakistan.

One thing is for sure, if you deny that this really doesn’t give any proof of future prophethoods.. then you will have to accept the fact that the future won’t have any martyrs, siddiques and righteous among the ummat -e- Muhammdi :saw: either.

:smack: .. bhai mere we need to be face to face to battle this one out.. seriously … there is a communication gap.

Mr. Pakistani Abroad

The verse is important as it describes al the avenues of spiritual progress open to the Muslims. All the four spiritual ranks- the prophets; the truthful; the martyrs and the righteous-- can now be attained only by following the Holy Prophet. This is an honour reserved for the Holy Prophet alone. No other prophet shares it with him. The inference is further supported by the verse which speaks of the prophets generally and says: And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they are the Truthful and the Martyrs in the presence of their Lord (57:20). When read together these two verses signify that, whereas the followers of other Prophets could only attain the rank of the Truthful, the Martyrs and the Righteous and no higher, the followers of the Holy Prophet can rise to the rank of a Prophet also. The Bahr al-Muhit (vol III, p. 287) quotes Al-Raghib as saying: "God has divided the believers into four classes in this verse, and has appointed for them four stages, some of which are lower then the others, and He has exhorted true believers not to remain behind any of these stages." And adds that "Prophethood is of two kinds, general and special. The special Prophethood, viz., the Law-bearing Prophethood, is now unattainable; but the general prophethood continues to be attained.

°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°°º¤ø,¸ **Articlle on the Meaning of 4:69 ** °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°°º¤ø,¸

Here is the original Arabic verse:

[thumb=C]469.JPG[/thumb]

Changez_lik, now some of the most authentic English translations of the verse compared to yours:

M. Pickthal: Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!

A. J. Arberry: Whosoever obeys God and the Messenger - they are with those whom God has blessed. Prophets, just men, martyrs, the righteous; good companions they!

Shakir: And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

Daryabadi: And whosoever obeyeth Allah and the apostle, then those shall be with them whom Allah hath blessed – from among the prophets, the saints, the martyrs, and the righteous. Excellent are these as a company!

E. H. Palmer: Whoso obeys God and the Apostle, these are with those God has been pleased with, of prophets and confessors and martyrs and the righteous;- a fair company are they.

Sher Ali: And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed HIS blessings - the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they.

Ayub Khan: And whoso obeys God and the Messenger, they are with those whom God has blessed, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs and the Righteous; and excellent companions are they!

M. Asad: For, all who pay heed unto God and the Apostle shall be among those upon whom God has bestowed His blessings: the prophets, and those who never deviated from the truth, and those who [with their lives] bore witness to the truth, and the righteous ones: and how goodly a company are these!

Qaribulla: Whosoever obeys Allah, and the Messenger, they are with those whom Allah has favored, the Prophets, the sincere, the martyrs and the righteous, and these are the best company.

You have either got your translation from Yousaf Ali, or from Khan & Hilali. Both of these translations are not literal. Yousuf Ali has called his translation ‘Approximate’, whereas Khan & Hilali call their work a Rough Translation. Therefore, these translators have not retained the original wording of the Koran in their translations. Instead, they have chosen the words that describe their personal opinion on the meanings of the verses. Despite the fact that an overwhelming number of translators have not agreed to their words, and in order to clear your further doubts as to how the part of the verse under discussion should be translated, let me explain this verse further.

-== The Translation of ﻊﻣ==-

The original words that occur in the verse are ** ﻢﻬﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻢﻌﻧﺍ ﻦﻳﺬﻟﺍ ﻊﻣ**.

ooO** Making Your Case **Ooo

Those who deny that this verse promises the followers of prophet Mohammad the blessing of prophethood insist that the meaning of ﻊﻣ is ‘in the company of’, whereas the word used for ‘among’ is ﻦﻤ. Thus this verse specifies that the followers of prophet Mohammad will be in the company of such people and will not be able to be among them. For this purpose they present some verses of the Koran where the word ﻊﻣ has been meant to signify the company.

For example, it has been said in the Koran, ** ﻦﻴﻨﻣﻮﻤﻟﺍ ﻊﻣ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻥﺎ ** i.e. God is with the believers. Certainly we can not translate this as God is among the believers and one of them. Similarly, there is another verse ﻦﻳﺮﺑﺎﺼﻟﺍ ﻊﻣ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻥﺎ. In the light of these verses, they conclude that we can not translate ﻊﻣ as ﻦﻤ and therefore the verse under discussion can not be translated to mean the followers of prophet Mohammad may be among the prophets.

ooO** Decisive Ruling **Ooo

One way I could defend my point would have been, to quote some verses from the Koran where ﻊﻣ means ‘among’. The discussion will then carry on indefinitely. Therefore, I think it will be more appropriate if I quote for you, a decisive and authentic ruling on the meaning of the word ﻊﻣ by a religious scholar whose knowledge and authority on the lexicon and the Koran is recognized and accepted.

Imam Raghib was an Islamic scholar who wrote the book ** ﻥﺍﺮﻘﻟﺍ ﺐﻳﺮﻏ ﻲﻓ ﺕﺍﺩﺮﻔﻤﻟﺎ **. This book is considered beyond any doubt, the most authentic dictionary of the Koran ever compiled in the history of Islam. If you look up the meaning of ﻊﻣ in this dictionary, (Page 486) Imam Raghib has explained:

** ﻲﻓ ﻭﺍ ﺭﺍﺪﻟﺍ ﻲﻓ ﺎﻌﻣ ﺎﻤﻫ ﻮﺤﻧ ﻥﺎﮑﻤﻟﺍ ﻲﻓ ﺎﻣﺍ ﻉﺎﻤﺘﺟﺎﻟﺍ ﻲﻀﺘﻘﻳ ﻊﻤ
ﺎﺧ ﺍﺭﺎﺻ ﺎﻤﻫﺪﺣﺍ ﻥﺎﻓ ﺏﺎﻟﺍﻭ ﺥﺎﻟﺍ ﻮﺤﻧ ﻦﻴﻔﻳ ﺎﻀﺘﻤﻟ ﺎﮐ ﻲﻨﻌﻤﻟﺍ
ﻮﺤﻧ ﻪﺒﺗﺮﻟﺍ ﻭ ﻑﺮﺸﻟﺍ ﻲﻓﺎﻣ ﺍﻭ ﻩﺎﺧﺍ ﺮﺧﺎﻟ ﺍﺭﺎﺻ ﺎﻣ ﻝﺎﺣ ﻲﻓ ﺮﺧﺎﻠﻟ
ﻮﻠﻌﻟﺍ ﻲﻓ ﺎﻤﻫ **

i.e. The word Ma’ requires union, and this union can be through four ways:

  1. Both coexist at a place (Makaan)
  2. Both coexist at a time (Zamaan)
  3. Both coexist in a meaning (Ma’naa)
  4. Both coexist in position (Rutbah & honor (Sharf)

Now, let us compare these meanings with the verse under discussion. It is obvious that only meaning that you can choose for this verse is the fourth one, otherwise you can not justify how the righteous of this time coexisted with the righteous that had died before them. We must take the verse to mean that the followers of Allah and prophet Mohammad will rise to the position of prophethood and the other blessings.

This meaning of the word ﻊﻣ is in accordance with many other verses of the Koran. It has been said in the Koran ** ﺭﺍﺮﺑﺎﻟﺍ ﻊﻣ ﺎﻨﻓﻮﺗ ﻭ ** (3:193) The only way you can translate this is, to mean give me death while I’m among the righteous, and one of them. You can not translate this to mean, that as soon as some righteous person dies, make me die as well. So, I agree that there are various meanings of the word ﻊﻣ, but in this verse we must translate to mean ‘among’.

ooO A Problem Ooo

Let me now point out a little problem with your opinion. If you translate the above verse to say that the followers of prophet Mohammad will only be in the company of Prophets and will never be able to be among them, then according to this translation, the verse will also imply that the followers of prophet Mohammad can not be ** ﻖﻳﺪﺻ , ** ﺪﻴﻬﺷ, or ** ﺢﻟﺎﺻ ** either, and can only be among them. Is this an acceptable meaning of the verse?

If it's said to you:

"Play well, cuz if you do you will be 'with those' who have had the honor of .. being in the Hall of Fame, winning a championship, leading a team, playing very well throughout the season etc."

Now the statement guarantees ONLY your being 'with' the other people.. where, when and how is not mentioned. It is not stated whether you will 'become' them nor is it implied that you cannot.

IMO it's not a definitive verse to use in support of future prophethood.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

I can't find "ONE" of the rewards in this verse. I am quoting the verse again. Can you underline the part where according to you, it says "ONE" reward?

4: 70. And whoso obeys ALLAH and this Messenger shall be among those on whom ALLAH has bestowed HIS blessings - the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they
[/QUOTE]

I really don't like to go so slow. Is this the only place in Quran where Allah swt told about His blessings for "believers"?

Again point being the same. Can you only be “WITH” the ‘Champions’? You can’t become one?

Meaning you can’t “BECOME” righteous or siddique or martyr within the ummat of Muhammad :saw:?

In this world, can you live in company of “martyrs”?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *

In this world, can you live in company of "martyrs"?
[/QUOTE]

But you can become one. Or can't you!

Mr. Changez_Like:

No where in this discussion Zakiahmed and PagalInsaan has stated that this verse means to be physically in the company of prophets, siddiqs, martyrs. They have always maintained that you could be among them meaning that you can attain this status being in the ummah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him).

I don't understand the point you are trying to make!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
But you can become one. Or can't you!
[/QUOTE]

No, you become one only when you leave this world, and this verse is talking about "company".