proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

[king_faisal]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

fraudia, you have made some valid points. i would however like to point out that all asian countries that went from being basket cases like pak to being developed in less than 50 years went through long period of authoritarian rule. what was important for countries like korea and taiwan was that govt's main goal was to develop the economy for which consistent economic policy is the key. in contrast, their is not a single asian country over the last 50 years that has been a democracy and went from being basket case economy to being developed.

bottomline, i dont think democracy is the answer to pak's probelm at this point in time.

[king_faisal]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

flame of life, i would have musharraf act like general pinochet or park chung hee. google to find more about them. you will be amazed to find similarities between the circumstances musharraf finds himself under and the situation park chung hee dealt with. hint: both supported americans despite huge opposition at home.

[king_faisal]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

fraudia is right on the money. we need to cast our personal prejudices aside and evaluate policies and actions in light of whats best for pak. all rulers did some good and some bad. i hate bhutto for destroying pak economy but i really admire him for the role he played in developing our nuclear program and starting relationship with china. similarly i admire bb for tackling mqm and cleaning karachi. however corruption of ppp govt destroyed the economy.

right now i support musharraf because in my opinion he is the best we have available. people however are free to disagree with me. its a free world and musharraf is not my relative.

[Captain1]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@king_faisal

flame of life, i am slowly coming around to democracy argument because i think democracy is the best cure for jahaluth of pak awam. given that literacy levels of pak awam is much lower than that of iranians or iraqis, left to their own devices, pak awam is going to elect leaders much worse than the bozos who rule iran or iraq. few years of pain resulting from living under a tyrant will put pakistanis on the right path. at this point in our history, benevolent leaders like musharraf and shaukat aziz are wasted on us. saddam, bin laden or ahmedinijad is what we deserve.

Can you please correleate democracy and literacy? I believe literacy is not much of a factor in Pakistan when adopting democracy, the biggest hurdles are nature of people, society, thought process, rationality and not to forget army (:D) etc. I know it has been said umpteen times before but I will say it again, look at the champion of democracy parties i.e. PPP, PMLs, JI, MQM etc, when was the last time they had elections for party leadership? PPP even elected BB as "lifetime" chairperson. Ejazul Haq becomes MNA just because of his fathers "political" stunts.

Democracy will prosper as "evolving" process through government/institutions, it cannot be shrugged off just because people are illiterate or they sympathise with "radicals" or they are personality worshippers, corruption etc.

[legbreakgoogly]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

Pakistani populace is not capable of democratic governance. The majority are like cattle. With the same intelligence and understanding of the world. I have very little hope for them, having seen how they respond to a menace within there own backyard. An idiot nation.

[Captain1]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@legbreakgoogly

Pakistani populace is not capable of democratic governance. The majority are like cattle. With the same intelligence and understanding of the world. I have very little hope for them, having seen how they respond to a menace within there own backyard. An idiot nation.

You probably don't know why more people are getting aligned with radicalism then "nationalism". Seed of radicalism was sown in late 1970s early 80s by none other than Zia by volunteering to "educate" Pakistanis for a neighbor's war and someone else's interests (mainly US). Since then education has been going on, madrassah after madrassah were established whose "output" was utilized in war against Russia but when the war was over the same institutions were used to support/form "Taliban" and when "Taliban" became world's eye sore we suddenly stopped supporting them politically and abandoned them completely. It is a separate debate though (the whole Taliban "phenomena"). But our govt/ISI didn't do much damage control other than trying to change syllabus of FSc and an attempt to control syllabi of "madrassahs". Well it was too late. Now people are demanding to kill them, do you think it can be done in days/months? When you use force to "eliminate" such menace, more people get involved in it (due to "collateral" damage) and sympathies then turn towards "victims".

[legbreakgoogly]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

I know the history of Islaminization in Pak. Zia is single handedly responsible for setting Pak on the path to destruction. It cannot remain as a tenable state with two seperate systems, sadly its the backward system that is the widely supported one.

We are going the Iran route. As Galloway says, 1 bullet away from an Islamic revolution. That will bring the US raining missiles down on us. FACT.

[Captain1]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@legbreakgoogly

I know the history of Islaminization in Pak. Zia is single handedly responsible for setting Pak on the path to destruction. It cannot remain as a tenable state with two seperate systems, sadly its the backward system that is the widely supported one.

Then we need to adapt similar measures to eliminate the militancy mindset. We need to 'assimilate' such institutions, control them so their "output" is better utilised and "productive", it will take time but it will be more effective than bullets and bombs.

[Dr.LuLworth]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

2: BB and NS r more popular than him.

This alone is the biggest proof.

[Haris]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@Fraudz

i think the format for discussion is wrong.
is musharraf a good leader has nothing to do with whether we need democracy or not
and whether we need democracy has nothing to do with him being good or bad
and niether does it have anything to do with how good or bad the choices are.

just because we have crooks does not mean we should not have democracy, justt because he is good does not mean he should stick around for decades, or just because he is bad does not mean that others who are bad become saviors all of a sudden.

The nation needs to move forward, and for that elections are needed. more than likely a couple of years down the road ppl would be dissatisifed with the situation anyways.

I just think the entire basis of the arguments on this topic is wrong. pro democracy people have to prove everything that he has done is wrong, and that just does not work. Even if he was the ebst leader the universe had ever seen..we still need democracy. real democracy.

pro musharraf folks use the fact that his opponents are a bunch of idiots to ignore his regime’s excesses and errors. and justify lack of democracy.

we really need to start focusing on what is right and what is wrong, and what is needed otherwise we will stay in teh rut of justifying excesses of each regime because they were better than other regimes in one area or another.

some will absolve this regime of the missing person crap, others will consider the excesses by BB in karachi as needed, while yet others will ignore the polundering of forex accts by Nawaz.

we are educated ppl, we have seen democracy in action in the countries we live in, we should demand that we have a system with checks and balances, and we should hold everyone accountable, for everything.

This is going to be only serious post on this topic unless I see changes, otherwise i will go back to the same topi drama here that I see and participate in on a daily basis

@Fraudz

i decided to make a serious post rather than punga for a change. one can be pro democracy while hating the choices he has to deal with.

everyone here is spinning their wheels, in efforts to prove each other wrong, ignoring the errors or weaknesses of each person’s favourite person. or we dislike one person so much that anyone opposing him becomes our hero.

look at it man

all of ifti’s good word ignored because he dared take a stand
all of his wrong actions ignored because he took a stand against musharraf
all of musharraf’s good work ignored because he is a military ruler
all of musharraf’s wrong actiosn ignored, because people dont like his opponents

thats all it is here, day in day out.

we are all collectively spinning our wheels, dunn matter to ppl like em who it does ot affect and who dont really care, but for you gusy who take this stuff seriously. You guys need to raise your game folks

I mean with all the mental firepower here, we could have built an inventory of the crap done by every leader and publicised it and spread it,a sking for answers, no matter whether it is musharraf or benazir or nawaz, but its like we are dragging skeletons out of one closet while ppla re frantically putting them back and at the same time pullign skeletons out of the other parties closets.

its a cluster %$# folks, and I for one am just bored of it now.

Excellently put pir ji!

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@Fraudz

i decided to make a serious post rather than punga for a change. one can be pro democracy while hating the choices he has to deal with.

everyone here is spinning their wheels, in efforts to prove each other wrong, ignoring the errors or weaknesses of each person's favourite person. or we dislike one person so much that anyone opposing him becomes our hero.

look at it man

all of ifti's good word ignored because he dared take a stand all of his wrong actions ignored because he took a stand against musharraf all of musharraf's good work ignored because he is a military ruler all of musharraf's wrong actiosn ignored, because people dont like his opponents

thats all it is here, day in day out.

we are all collectively spinning our wheels, dunn matter to ppl like em who it does ot affect and who dont really care, but for you gusy who take this stuff seriously. You guys need to raise your game folks

I mean with all the mental firepower here, we could have built an inventory of the crap done by every leader and publicised it and spread it,a sking for answers, no matter whether it is musharraf or benazir or nawaz, but its like we are dragging skeletons out of one closet while ppla re frantically putting them back and at the same time pullign skeletons out of the other parties closets.

its a cluster %$# folks, and I for one am just bored of it now.

acha. mein samjha yeh rozay ka kamal hai. :p

Edit: Waesay I don't believe in political neutrality. I think a political debate is all about taking sides, sticking to it, and ridiculing the opponent :biggthumb

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@king_faisal

flame of life, i would have musharraf act like general pinochet or park chung hee. google to find more about them. you will be amazed to find similarities between the circumstances musharraf finds himself under and the situation park chung hee dealt with. hint: both supported americans despite huge opposition at home.

thanx for the hints and all but I dont think I'll need them. U wish Pinochet for my country. I wish someone like him/Hitler or Saddam is bestowed on ur country to clean up all the problems. Unless, u r in a place where there r no problems?

I know, useless debate. No matter how much one is overawed by these majestic personalities of the last century.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@legbreakgoogly

Pakistani populace is not capable of democratic governance. The majority are like cattle. With the same intelligence and understanding of the world. I have very little hope for them, having seen how they respond to a menace within there own backyard. An idiot nation.

Obviously u r neither part of this nation, nor in the majority.

Go u :biggthumb

[Aalsi]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@king_faisal

btw my problem with musharraf is that he has not been a dictator enough.if he had acted in pak's best interest, likes of zardari, altaf hussain and rasheed ghazi would not have dared to raised their heads.

Good point.

Just remember what the so-called democratic leaders did to Pakistan.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@Fraudz

It would matter if you were consequential in pakistani political set up :)

right. then we should all stop wasting time here, and perhaps close this place down?

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

iska transmission mechanism (*if I may borrow that term from economics *:p) kya ho ga kamal bhai? Idea of course is very good. hmm We already have a pressure group sort of thing going here..PILDAT. it was set up by an expat Pakistani. Amir Mehboob. I've emailed him once or twice. Plus, what new stuff would we be unearthing here? Govt.'s have been trying to convict BB for 10 years now and havent been able to do it in one case. So if we drag out those skeletons, we already know the answer...politically motivated. And I just wish u had access to regular TV programming from Pak. BB and NS do get asked about Lifetime chairperson ship and lack of democracy in their parties. They often gole mole it. Just today she was asked about her chairperson ship and she said..hey I did not appoint myself to the post..people did and if they have faith in my abilities, so be it. U know...kind of like dead end.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

this is no excuse but our political parties r not run that way =/

what u propose might hold true in urban areas but most people in Pakistan r still getting votes based on biradri system. If I am still around here by the time of elections, I might ask a few questions here and there. If anyone comes asking for votes.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

@king_faisal

fraudia is right on the money. we need to cast our personal prejudices aside and evaluate policies and actions in light of whats best for pak. all rulers did some good and some bad.** i hate bhutto for destroying pak economy but i really admire him for the role he played in developing our nuclear program and starting relationship with china**. similarly i admire bb for tackling mqm and cleaning karachi. however corruption of ppp govt destroyed the economy.

right now i support musharraf because in my opinion he is the best we have available. people however are free to disagree with me. its a free world and musharraf is not my relative.

Very balanced post. :k:

[Haris]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

Pir ji, and Flame, let's propose and list some orgs, channels (not tv), thinktanks and depts that we can reach out to and write to. Then we can once again take a few issues, to start chose one, and do our discussion, research, proposals etc and compile it and actually send it to some place where it may be atleast received, read, archived if not heeded, and perhaps it may be taken serious in some way by some dept, official, org etc. We'll also have to define ways to reach out to and approach the parties/depts we write to and should use any links/connections available to reach out.
We can set in motion the earlier plans again, as well as the other plans focusing on such objectives, or we could wait for slight reduction in political turbulence as participation has to be ensured.
it's true with this much energy and ideas we have here, we should put it to use...

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: proof that our awam is not ready for democracy

THE understatement of the month: “Nawaz Sharif was an appalling prime minister of Pakistan. He ran the place so badly from 1990-1993 and 1997-1999 that when General Pervez Musharraf overthrew him in a military coup, many people both inside and outside the country were rather relieved to see him go.” (The Economist, Sept 13).

Indeed, we should cast our minds back to the maunds of mithai which were distributed and swallowed in celebration of the army jawans who were shown clambering over the walls of the PTV offices.

http://dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

When the majority of people in Pakistan were eating mithai when Nawaz was overthrown by Musharraf on 12 Oct '99, they weren’t too bothered about democracy.