There are aspects of Divinity which appear paradoxical or as you stated contradictory, but they are not. The reason why you think they are is either because you are unable to go the mental distance, or unwilling to go the mental distance to realise that.
Well, maybe I don't have the mental capacity to reconcile contradictory statements attributed to divine (after all I'm not a big believer in divine), but you should be able to explain them in a logical manner. After all, religious people seem to think that they know what God wants & that is why they try to impose their views on others.
I can agree with you on this basis that if there was no guidance in the form of scriptures and prophets sent by God then the majority of mankind would not be aware and hence not believe in God.
What is the need for books and the prophets when all God has to do is appear and tell everyone what he wants. Why go through whole futile exercise for nothing (nothing+nothing=nothing)?
What is the need for books and the prophets when all God has to do is appear and tell everyone what he wants. Why go through whole futile exercise for nothing (nothing+nothing=nothing)?
Wrong ... I told you before ... the purpose of being hidden from us is two:
a) So those who choose to follow the signs towards Him can justify their status - having chosen without compulsion
b) So He can demonstrate that He is needless of our worship
Those who are in knowledge of Him cannot help themselves but to fall prostrate before Him ... there will be no choice in the matter ... Have you heard that those who are stiff necked in this life will be shackled with rods on their backs in the Hereafter ... when they see the Presence of God people will magnetically fall prostrate - except those who despite their urges to do so will be prevented from doing it ... because they chose not to do it when they were alive in this life.
Call Him good or evil ... but remember one thing just because you don't like it or can't make sense of it - it does not mean that it aint true ... But to have such Books and Prophets come with their signs and miracles and wisdoms it is the truly blind who can't see that truth pure and manifest, despite being able to see physically. You have been given life and comfort and ease and blessings and you have chosen to not acknowledge Him ... then don't complain when He does not acknowledge you on that Day of Judgement.
I can agree with you on this basis that if there was no guidance in the form of scriptures and prophets sent by God then the majority of mankind would not be aware and hence not believe in God.
But if you are talking about "likelihood" as in probability ... then according to our beliefs such things are based on trends, patterns and these come from God - God is not subject to probability - but the illusion of probability comes as a result of certain consistencies in the workings of God ... we observe those consistencies and draw conclusions ... Encoded in Islamic scripture is the idea that God is Unseen ... hence until today we have not seen Him.
But presenting a sentence with the word "likely" in it expecting that to be taken as "truth" is missing a trick.
I think you said it - the illusion of probability. Beyond that, you have presented a circular logic. Last sentence went over my head.
truth is that every religion is a leap of blind faith. no professor or student who uses a scientific method can prove their religious beliefs based out of this blind faith.
if this weren’t true, the religious ones would have concrete proof and there would be no atheists. truth is, every day the number of people refusing to be shackled down into primitive ideologies based on fables like santa, god, satan, etc are rising exponentially.
and psyah, the only afterlife i know of is when people quit forums and then reappear with another copy paste in a couple of weeks. good to see you back, my circular logic championship medal winner pal.
Allah is First
Allah unchanged and Perfect in every way is deserved to be known
Allah Creates although He is not obliged to Create
Allah is known
Allah deserves to be known in His Perfection - that He is needless
Allah establishes veils between Himself and Creation
The vanguard of heaven see He is needless
The earthly passengers are given high rank - for being given the ability to choose
Those who choose to follow the way of the vanguard of heaven fulfil their rank
Those who fail to choose the good are the losers
Allah (SWT) shows His Justice and Mercy and Beauty
Allah (SWT) is known by His Creation in His Attributes
Allah is Last
Allah is Always
Why Allah would do anything is not important nor can it be understood nor is it known ... We hear and we obey. We are concerned with what Allah sanctions not why.
just coz it sounds pretty and poetic does not mean it is true, pal. that is not how proof works.
secondly, quoting from within your own scripture to validate itself is exactly what circular logic is. congratulations.
i wouldnt have started this thread but for your mocking thread on the same note. learn tolerance, not just complaining and whining for it all the time.
I agree with you it is not proof … But the reason why I wrote it was not to give proof … But to explain our point of view, basis and understanding in a concise way, without it being taken out of context and wrongly understood … Which previously has been taken and falsely applied to wrongly constructed criticism … If I keep insisting that God is unlike us and others keep arguing on the basis that Why this or that as if He is like us then in fact you are not refuting our position … You are infact refuting a misunderstood position.
Quoting from our scripture is important not so we validate it … But to demonstrate that our beliefs that we profess to are there … Not to be misunderstood … Any criticism of our belief system has already been fully realised and responded … I find this quite miraculous in itself … So should you … To think that modernity can only throw the same regurgitated arguments all of which have been catered for should people take the whole belief system rather than selected portions of it. We use our scriptures in faith … Initially then we act upon them and seek reflection upon their fruits and if the fruits are sweet then we edge closer in accepting them, this cycle continues to aid us in our eventual confirmation … I agree this process is cyclic, but it is not circular … I would call it am iterative belief that brings us closer and closer to truth that we can find through a series of trust, experience, reflection stepped cycles. The problem with many critics of Islam … Is that they behave unfairly … Areas that they see as truth they dismiss as either obvious, common sense, or attribute it to something else or artfully ignore it … This ignoring of stark truths is a deal breaker in discussion. If a person genuinely wants to see the POV of Islam then they must ready their hearts to accept certain things they know to make sense.
I didn’t make a mocking thread … Read back it is all there …
Shamraz posted a Chrisitian thing from the Internet … I’ve seen it before … It has some dogmatic problems … Like “God is good” … From a Muslim POV … I created a similar dialogue more pertinent to an Islamic vantage point. It was you who created the mockery dialogue … Also, remember in both earlier dialogues the professor raises the questions and the student answers … You thread starts that way, but then weirdly the student starts to ask the questions … It is a common trait of the atheist you pose questions … To trip up and offer no answers … The questions themselves are often wrong and that is where I find the need to respond.
^ What evil did He create, exactly? Jinns and humans? Then how come not all of jinns and not all of humans are evil? He created angels to be good so they're all good, no exceptions. If He created us to be evil then how come there is good in jinns and humans? How come Iblis was a devoted servant of God for a good while if he was in fact created to be evil?
He gave us free will, that's what He did. If we make use of this freedom to be evil, that's our fault, not His. Being a true crime fanatic, I'm always amazed at how some of the serial killers have exceptionally high IQ. Did God give them that brain to plot murders and robberies or could they have used that brain to help the world like millions of other bright minds we know of? We know the shayateen are locked up in Ramadan but we still do wrong because we don't need the devil to make us do wrong, we have a brain of our own and the ability to make our own decisions.
Who says He approves of evil? He wouldn't have sent countless Prophets to us if He didn't think there was ill happening in the world. The Judgement Day is planned for a reason - it will bring justice to those who've been wronged and will punish the wrongdoers. Forget physical pain and suffering, even if you verbally hurt someone, you'll be answering for that on the day. And for every pain that has afflicted you during your time on earth, even if it is as minor as the hurt caused by the prick of a thorn, your sins will be wiped off as leaves fall from a tree. That is the merciful and just God I believe in.
There are lots I disagree with. Was abt to respond when i read the part abt if you verbally hurt someone. That is powerful. That along with what Muzna said few months ago " gussa is haram" are two things that will stay with me long after all this is over.
Or one can also say - queer used a brilliant debating tactic to make a valid point.
which valid point?
Student didnt answer first question and then continue with his sixers. lol @ script.
ok, make it professor vs professor and answer that question then i will see how can u continue
which valid point?
Student didnt answer first question and then continue with his sixers. lol @ script.
ok, make it professor vs professor and answer that question then i will see how can u continue
What exactly is your point? I am afraid I didn't understand much of what you wrote.
Wrong ... I told you before ... the purpose of being hidden from us is two:
a) So those who choose to follow the signs towards Him can justify their status - having chosen without compulsion
b) So He can demonstrate that He is needless of our worship
.
if he's needless of our worship, he wouldn't punish us for not worshipping him :)
why do you think that all existence, this whole beautiful universe came into existence for one reason----and that reason is us.
if he's needless of our worship, he wouldn't punish us for not worshipping him :)
Peace philosophy
You asked a question ... but this statement is more intriguing ...
"What makes you say that above?"
I said earlier that He is needless of our worship and that we need to worship Him for our own salvation ... Why would punishment for not worshiping infer a need by the punisher? ... please explain ... Can you cite any examples that can demonstrate your reasoning here?
Well this 70’s dude is behind the times … Science states that the universe had a beginning … and Islam states Allah (SWT) is the First and has no beginning. You can say the universe has no beginning if you like then you will have to fend off the scientists …
Well this 70's dude is behind the times ... Science states that the universe had a beginning ... and Islam states Allah (SWT) is the First and has no beginning. You can say the universe has no beginning if you like then you will have to fend off the scientists ...
he's talking to those who believe in the supernatural. trying to dumb it down for them. :)
I was perfectly happy letting you live in your cushy bubble of circular logic. 
