principled mind

Society Religion & Philosophy
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a principled mind will not indulge in anything that is bad for the intergrity of the principles that it idealizes. are there exceptions to this rule?

if you like, share your thoughts on this: unsure, secure or insecure?

best,
Dushwari

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Re: principled mind

Life is loooooooooooooooooooooong. Phases come and go.
We shouldn't stick to our rationals too hard.As prophet said "miana rawi(moderation) is the best way"

For the people who take their ideological ventures rater seriously.
I would quote Allama Iqbal here::
by daregh aatish namrood meen kood para ishq
eqel abhi tamasha y lab bam thi
(some one(AQ) please correct the second sentence )

Its a very delicate ideology between "aqel" and "ishq". I would say different between an astronaut and astronomer. Like the scientist. Who spent their life time on path which no one has seen before.
Its good if some time we put our rationals behind us and let "ishq" drive us.
ishq = obsession( in a good way)

Cafe ke Baithak - MAy
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What if the integrity of the principal is apocryphal itself. Are you asking this generally or based on the fact that a principal, speciously, can't go bad ideally.

► IS Bhai ◄
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no correct principle is spurious, Intelliphant.
it is not about subjective idiosyncracies claimed as principles.
but specifically speaking of an ideally and actually the rightful principle as laws or ethics would have a principled mind, follow.

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Talking about the statement in bold is like opening a Pandora's box ,so I will hesitate to go there. Second statement is ,logically and technically ,very correct, I have only one question before we may write about it further. when you say "principled mind", you mean a mind with a prejudged approach or a mind that analyze things in accordance with the ethics of the dictum that it carries.

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implied, is it that the communicators are naturally always going to exhibit that?
are you saying that?

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Not naturally, and not always, it depends and depends on the ethics. Religion of the ethics and ethics of the religion.

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Peace Dushwari

If it idealizes those principles then it is already indulging in things that go against them. If it grasps those principles then on occasion the mind gets a few upper cuts from the heart that whips up beneathe it. Sometimes we let down our guard. That is human; but the pathway to our principles is seeking forgiveness and getting back on track.

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thanks for clarity, Intelliphant.

religion of ethics and ethics of the religion could be two diff things in syntax, but the principles ought to be so all-encompassing that they must be able to exhaustively keep at bay, any misitrpretation.

giving a pharmacological anology: what makes a better label, is when the contents of a bottle are absolutely fully known.
best,
Dushwari

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Re: principled mind

brother psyah,
yes, the mind does idealize the principles as in following them, actually. for it believes in their authenticity as the correct principles.
the epistemic question is risen now, that who prescribes these principles.

grasp is exactly the right word that you used.

hen we grasp something, it is only then that we can attach some value to it.
and that value enables one to be dedicated to whatever it might be to which value is attached.
ethically and lawfully, the value attached to life is that it is not to be caused pain or suffering.
now the principled mind will do all it can to not cause any pain and suffering to a life, such that the value which it places on the life, does not get devalued.
so, the argument is for a principled mind, to not cutting that slack for what ever reason, and ensuring that principle is upheld in word and in deed.

a fervent believer will say, they are prescribed by the religion.
a human being who knows the value of law and ethics, of justice across the board, in own humble self, will say. religion yes, but also one's own personal sense of doing the right thing, ought to drive the principled self of the principled mind, the body in which it resides and its owner total being.

best,
Dushwari

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looking for the phone booth BRB

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pardon, k khan, what do you mean?

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Peace again

If somebody's principles are such that they are in themselves an array of exceptions then finding an exception to the first post becomes increasingly difficult.

For example if it is wrong to kill, except when defending oneself. Then will a principled mind allow himself to be killed or strike a lethal blow upon the chance of being killed or merely parry away without striking back? And which of these is the best option?

But if by the term 'indulge' you mean dwell on and thrive on then such is not possible. In fact one needn't be any sort of 'principled mind' to avoid 'indulging' in anything that goes against ones principles even a layman will not 'indulge' in activites that compromise the integrity of his principles. It begins to indicate that the claim is not really saying much. It becomes an obvious.

However, if by the term 'indulge' you mean slip into and sway and try methods which compromise the principles then one may do so to test the water.

For example: Someone may do the lottery to see how it works as an experiment, (again providing for themselves a comfort zone to build exceptional circumstance for undertaking the act which is an anti-principle), on the off chance, never to do it again. In such cases has the person truly indulged? Or have they merely formed a loophole. And by forming a loophole does this mean that there is another element that pulls a person away from adhering to his principles. I think yes. I think desires, Shaitan call it what you like are there as counterbalance forces to our sense of principle - ethics (fitrah) and Divine guidance or inspiration.

Simply putting it the mind often plays tug-of-war with the heart. Principles are not understood by our hearts ... a principled mind is one that must therefore be a mind that dominates matters of the heart, but the heart is not weary creature it can still seep through by using at times the mind in mind games against itself.

Enslaving ourselves to Divine Law or (our Principles) is the requirement of the Muttaqi, but in addition to this we must never become complacent in that or we move off the mark. Only after shackling ourselves and then begging for continuous guidance then being Given that Guidance can we be free from compromising our principles. Otherwise there is no mind that can do it alone.

To summarise again ... If a principled mind is one that strives to adhere to it's princples then one who strives to adhere to principles will not be one who indulges in the opposite. It is a logical tautology. However, if by the word 'strive' we can conclude that it is not always possible to be adherent then one can expect even a 'principled mind' to undertake activities that compromises it's principles.

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brilliant, brother psyah,
there are so many ideas that your narrative and elaboration has inspired.

would like to say, that in confirming one's absolute zealous pursuit to get what one sets out to do, and singly maintains personal consistency as is aspired to achieve what the principled mind ought to achieve, there remains little to doubt if at all, about its adherence.

now, external, totally uncontrollable factors may create hurdles or obstacles to the course... but, they will only prove to be one more reason for why, the principle mind's principal-ity if you will, in its totality and entirety will become clear.

it is like that rope that one must not let go of, which is a life line.
it is that sense of affinity with dedication and loyalty, which distraction or negative forces can't ever mess up, even if they tried their best.

again, the theme of Almighty's affect on our lives is not to be contested in any way from any side.

the nature of life cycle of us earthly mortals is such that we are to be good or bad or good then bad or bad then good.
in case of a principled mind, what i am trying to say is that, we cant good the bad!
good meaning, the adherence to the principles as in convictions of morality, fairness, justice, honesty and so forth... that the principled mind idealized and will do nothing else, but serve in the cause of following those principles through the body's deeds and words of the person who possesses a principled mind.

it has two unmistakable advantages:

a) it makes the principled mind
certain and no one has to worry about predicting its unpredictability.
b) it sets precedence for the other minds, to observe and learn

for instance, in a profession where hope and recovery is the end goal, there is no space for helplessness, self pity, made flaky alibis or dejection.
therefore, the principled mind, ideally must be strong enough, that even if it ever wavered, it will bounce back to what it should have held on to, i.e., its principles.

i hope i made the point a little bit clearer this time. :>
looking forward to your reply.

best,
Dushwari

The Random Thread
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Dushwari
pardon, k khan, what do you mean?

:D seems K Khan entered the wrong door.....:D

Unprincipled on his part.......:)

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Peace Dushwari

I guess it comes down to 1) Good'ing the bad or not 2) certainty or not 3) Crazy mind loops

There are two types of good and bad, those that are absolute guides and those that are definite relatives. These two sound somewhat oxymoronic. An example of an absolute guide is 'murder is bad', however, when we say 'fassad is worse' it becomes a definite relative. The two forms of 'bad' get defined by their position with respect to one another. There are also general 'bads' like killing and specific goods such as killing whilst defending oneself. Then there are betters and worses and so on. Principles themselves need to follow the fluidity of our definitions of good and bad otherwise the rigidity will become a burden for the worse! Had to use that word again.

Certainty has an appeal, but there are actually a very few set of things that we obliged to be certain about. They are all related to the Sifat of Allah (SWT). One of the things I am 'certain' we are not allowed to be certain about is our outcome. We are certainly not allowed to be certain about the Mercy of God on us, because that would hinder our belief in His Wrath. Again we are certainly not allowed to be certain in His Wrath on us, despairingly, for that would hinder our belief in His Mercy. Muslims are middle path people - that general statement is a certainty - we trust in His Mercy and fear without despair His Wrath.

Behold we find ourselves in loops. That in faith we must be certain but being certain are we in a state of neglect? We question .... and question puts us in the uncertain part of the playing field. A certain person has no need to question. We find ourselves rebounding playing metaphoric tennis with our state of belief. The reconciliation is not to be certain but to be trusting and to gain insight and grow in that insight and gain knowledge and seek guidance in that knowledge trusting our findings and attributing them to God not to ourselves.

Of course if you ask me if I am certain I will say .... yes as far as is my capacity to know, but I cannot then go and close my doors to other options or that will leave me close minded in my certainty and perhaps even arrogant. The Shai'tan's last curve ball ... It is that what we learn in Tazkiyyah that after reassuring ourselves that we have truth, the last thing to do is pat ourselves on the back. What we should do is humble ourselves. Knowledge comes with a price and a burden one of the greatest burdens it unleashes on us is the crown it makes us wear.

And perhaps that last point is a principle ... whoa ... we are back to the beginning!

The Random Thread
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i wont refute what you said, brother psyah.

you are right and totally agree with the concept of the ultimate link with Allah swt and why only that spiritual connection is a guide for humans to live their lives. personally, faith would require living it out. feeling that faith as alive, within, is one's only recourse to certainty in life & in relation to the world that is all around.

the life that one has as is given by Almighty, is certain by being predestining us to be born and have a life on this earth among people, at that... for earthly living, among other people who have rights of their own, that other people owe them. almost all of human interaction is based on sources of experiential knowledge we believe in and are affected by. to account for all the various influences, be it religion, culture, life experiences, travel, schooling, good family values (or no values), all things negative in life, individual injustices or terrible life experiences in case of very patient and poor people have borne – all of these various reasons can have people become good or bad.

whether the preferred path in searching is good still, for the sake of finding the truth and whether the affinity with the goodness in life is dear to oneself, sets the stage for the goodness then to become scalable across life situations and life-span, with the quality of living of a person becoming instrmental in indicating that such a person only believes in hopeful conclusions of things and lives it so, too, regardless of the misgivings of others.

yes, some of it has to do with being exhaustive in thinking, even de novu, about ascertaining this certainty in life. here, i am not referring to deliberate cause of self-hurt, but disappointments that people bring on other people, because they were treated nicely but they could not handle that, as bad people, either due to error in their own faulty judgments or their meanness, sadly.
we do know that we do not know everything and some things are hidden from us, per Allah swt.

that said, by their very nature of hidden existence, it goes like this: (unless they happen and we have a premonition of something bad about to happen, or real signs of it), and their consequences as well as the sequence of their consequences make us feel certain that A will lead to B, or sometimes not!

now, pure verbal and actionable intents, principles, rules, honesty, rationality all may give way to quite the opposite - and thus one feels that the source of one's knowledge that one believed to be true, is untrue. & there from, the whole process of believing and developing faith in faith with certainty restarts...
& there are exceptions to rules, though. but it will help mankind to be certain of itself on this earth and own up to own deeds to the extent that the deeds, good or bad, are its own.

instance: before eagerly wanting or actually trying to be uncertain prematurely and then becoming confused or using this made up fluffy confusion, to own advantage (actually to own disadvantage in the long while) and whatever a given person runs out on - the truths that he is ignoring to embrace, he will come to realize naturally and sooner or later that the badness within own self in having committed something terrible has to be faced by him. be it losing trust, hurting someone, being a liar, stealing something, humiliating somebody, distrusting someone, torturing someone or own self. & then, of what he used to believe in, will shatter in front of him and what he would like to believe in now, will be a fresh start in him into becoming good from bad…hopefully…

faith cannot and ought not to be used as a wild card, though. with a revival of true faith within, be it in the ultimate form of faithfulness to Allah swt, as being created thereby. or in faithfulness, being faithful to whom one indicated a trustworthy phrase with an intention to commit. and lo, he could not. after noting one’s own inefficiency and inaction and wrong actions, that person will become a totally new entity - a new person with whom one would interface, literally, much better than how he was before, difficult to assure, hard to talk to, impossibly doubtful, hurtfully confused or deliberately deceitful. with this other person’s emergence, the good is now able to exist in that person since he made the effort to change bad into good will now almost have it as a lesson that good ness is not something which should automatically happen to him, that he needs to be good, first, himself too. therefore, haqooq-ul-ibaad as prescribed by Allah swt’s Guideline does encourage that sense of responsibility towards others. no?

whatever one cannot capture by the personal qualities of being honest and forthright, brave and responsible, the rest in life situations can be handled by thoughtful and considerate fair improvisations as times goes on, or times changes and as people change having realized that bad is not good and it must be changed to/by good.

personal and universal parameters of existence, intellectual inquisitiveness, and spiritual/philosophical plain fields for homo-sapiens or insaan… their simultaneous tussle between tempting fate and the God-fearing-ness (what you called Wrath of Allah swt), keeping end of time in mind as human beings, all of it leads to the pressing question of all times - what works and what does not in life (on this earth).

if Allah swt wanted, we could all be simply not here and in the spiritual realm to offer prayers, to be pious and none of this worldly commotion or desires and satan as you said, would have caused all kinds of grief of/to mankind. since that is not so, we are all here. and that could also be used as a source for ascertaining right and wrong, their birth and the processes which sustain them as two different ways of being - right or wrong or good or bad.

as for the loops of crazi-ness, perhaps the loops are naturally helpful in not getting caught up in wrong self righteousness so in that sense, that unrest and that exhaustive questioning spirit is not without a method to its madness... this in itself may become a reason to be incredulous, since the wording primes the notion that it is an outcome of western thinking or language. which is another loop to untangle. since. i am no better than a white skinned soul next to me. unless i can prove it otherwise. similarly, in brown skinned people, in fundamentalist/dogmatic (please detach the words from their connotation with men who devise religious mis-construal, here they allude to obstinate self righteous ones who are looking of perfection incarnate in others, being totally imperfect and dubious, holding onto nothing by hypocrisy in their total self) people, this streak of being aggressive in disposing off all good in the other person, simply because to their mind, one or two things in them is not right, the whole issue of telling right from wrong is made futile.

in an ideal and realistic world, no one is perfect. that is why, even when we make the effort to become good after realizing that we were wrong, there is hope in there, there is a grace in there and a certain strength that not every one has – to go back in time and reflect on what transpires in everyday relation ships to be able to discern, that with Allah swt mercy, ‘i must not be the one, who would have had hurt someone in any way and if i did then I must do what i can to admit to my bad action and let that person know that I do realize that i was wrong and i wont ever do this again to anyone.’ that, to me, is a bad becoming a good. that is toba astaghfar actually practiced and that is commendable.

but not everyone does that. because they are socialized not to be unconventional. too much rigidity in preconceived notions of what is right and what is wrong, and yet no following of what is not right in their own selves. and that is where over criticality among people and their misjudgments and their stereotypic false ideas and hypocrisies eat away at their integrity.

about the argument of true religion being the only and the strongest base for our solid footing, i must say, is guided by what Allah swt placed in front of us - this whole conception of having forgiveness AFTER realization, only. this is so because Allah swt would rather have us learn on our own, seeing the guidance, believing in it, following it with full heart, than being half hearted about doing so in resentment or out of fear. sorry, there is no place of doubts in this. someone who runs away from his self, someone who does not make his life's decision, as an adult always blaming others for own stuck situation, and always changing own heart or mind, is in the wrong. such a person cannot be either good unless that person sees it that it is time to stop running in a futile way, hurting own iman, hurting others and hurting own self, and begin walking on own steady feet.

i am not sorry for us being back to the beginning, since it shows that we can complete cycles, and bring them full circles, in an understanding manner or communicating and disagreeing agreeably and proving to be open minded and helping in furthering the inquiry, enriching perspectives in good faith.
lastly, that crown wearing, ideally should teach us all, that being arrogant is its death. so that wont happen in case of humble beings. :>

best,
Dushwari

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Peace Dushwari

That's good. I didn't mean to infer that the loops are a problem, except that one may perceive them as so. As long as soundness is the basis for making decisions rather than waiting for absolute knowledge which is near impossible for us to gain then the process of faith itself is sustainable and we tacitly undertake one of our functions in the process which is trust in Allah (SWT).

I think after all this it has been difficult for me to define the term 'principled mind' without recourse to words such as 'guidance' and 'trust' to complement the term.

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dear brother psyah,
your words and perspectives is very inspiring, always. :>
you compliment is the best complimen to the principled mind query i had, when you back it with the ultimate power of untainted faith.
i totally agree with this: that absolute knowledge is not possible.
what my argument has been and is, is about an individual owning up to own decisive responsibility, to the extent that divine has allowed the individual to express, utilize and consistently display.
thanks and best,
Dushwari

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