Replying to the original question in this thread, I think Gillani's deal is that he is a very sincere party member. Despite the fact that he originated from Muslim League, but after coming to PPP he has always looked towards the leadership, previously Benazir and now Zardari. He surely has the guts to make decisions on his own. One should remember that when he was going through false cases and pressure from Musharraf to leave the party and join Army govt, he never compromised, which I think would be a very easy decision under so much influence.
Coming back to the same point, he can surely make the decisions but he is so honest to the party that he kept on looking towards Zardari to make the first decision so that he may go along that.
Replying to the original question in this thread, I think Gillani's deal is that he is a very sincere party member. Despite the fact that he originated from Muslim League, but after coming to PPP he has always looked towards the leadership, previously Benazir and now Zardari. He surely has the guts to make decisions on his own. One should remember that when he was going through false cases and pressure from Musharraf to leave the party and join Army govt, he never compromised, which I think would be a very easy decision under so much influence. Coming back to the same point, he can surely make the decisions but he is so honest to the party that he kept on looking towards Zardari to make the first decision so that he may go along that.
True, he spent alot of time in jail on cooked up and fabricated charges, and could have avoided it all by switching sides just like shiekh rashid and other lotaz. I dont think hes a puppet, but a person who is taking the party into full confidence with every step, which revolves around Zardari's leadership.
Shaukat on the other hand was a dictators stooge, had little to do with the party he was forced into, with very little liking. Infact, he had very little to do with Pakistan. And yes, the present setup is MUCH better than a military dictatorship.
True, he spent alot of time in jail on cooked up and fabricated charges, and could have avoided it all by switching sides just like shiekh rashid and other lotaz. I dont think hes a puppet, but a person who is taking the party into full confidence with every step, which revolves around Zardari's leadership.
come on now spock, he is not taking the party into confidence about his decisions, he is looking to asif to make the decisions. there is a huge difference and wordplay is not going to make it any better.
Shaukat on the other hand was a dictators stooge, had little to do with the party he was forced into, with very little liking. Infact, he had very little to do with Pakistan. And yes, the present setup is MUCH better than a military dictatorship.
as I said before..
*thank you for agreeing that the head of our democratic govt is nothing more than a puppet and we can feel good about him because he appears to be less of a puppet than a prime minister under a dictatorship, instead of comparing him to prime minsters of UK, canada, or heck..even India. do we want a real democracy or do we want a democracy that is somewhat better than a military dictatorship? *
how much better is it than the other democracies that I mentioned. Should that not be our gauge?
but as they say..dil behlanay ko ghalib yeh khayal accha hai :)
he is so honest to the party that he kept on looking towards Zardari to make the first decision so that he may go along that.
So the leader of the nation depends on the decisions of someone else in his political party.
kewl...
come on now spock, he is not taking the party into confidence about his decisions, he is looking to asif to make the decisions. there is a huge difference and wordplay is not going to make it any better.
How so? If I am not mistaken, even the rogue elements, i.e McDoom Fahim is supporting Zardari for presidency.
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how much better is it than the other democracies that I mentioned. Should that not be our gauge?
but as they say..dil behlanay ko ghalib yeh khayal accha hai :)
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Its a good start, considering we are coming from 9 years of totalitarian dictatorship. He was the best person for the PPP for this job, who would you much rather have if not him (from the PPP)?
How so? If I am not mistaken, even the rogue elements, i.e McDoom Fahim is supporting Zardari for presidency.
so zardari becomes teh president, is Pakistan supposed to be a presidential form of govt.
regardless the difference between taking party into confidence versus looking to party for orders is so stark that I cant even begin to further simplify it for you.
Its a good start, considering we are coming from 9 years of totalitarian dictatorship. He was the best person for the PPP for this job,
he was the best person to take orders from zardari? or he was the best person to be the leader of the nation.
so zardari becomes teh president, is Pakistan supposed to be a presidential form of govt.
That is a different matter, hopefully Zardari who has shown he has a poor track record of saying what he does, is insisting that the illegal powers that the president has will be taken off.
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regardless the difference between taking party into confidence versus looking to party for orders is so stark that I cant even begin to further simplify it for you.
he was the best person to take orders from zardari? or he was the best person to be the leader of the nation.
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Firstly, why didnt you open similar threads when you saw Shaukat Aziz doing the same thing? Secondly, he is the best person because anyone else, even McDoom Fahim would have pretty much made sure that Musharraf sticks around. This bloke spent time in jail on pathetic charges cooked up by Musharraf, so there was no one better in his party to have as the PM.
That is a different matter, hopefully Zardari who has shown he has a poor track record of saying what he does, is insisting that the illegal powers that the president has will be taken off.
so basically in a round about way you are saying that
Firstly, why didnt you open similar threads when you saw Shaukat Aziz doing the same thing? Secondly, he is the best person because anyone else, even McDoom Fahim would have pretty much made sure that Musharraf sticks around. This bloke spent time in jail on pathetic charges cooked up by Musharraf, so there was no one better in his party to have as the PM.
firstly why do u have to run to tangents when you dont have an answer. that tactic may work on others but I see right through it :) lets not compare the prime minister under a dictator to prime minister in a democracy. Now that we have a democracy, the prime minister needs to be running the govt, leading the nation, not some dude who inherited the party in a will.
how is he the best person to lead the nation? because he is good at taking orders? today if he has to meet with any other country's leader he gets his marching orders from zardari. is that what the prime minister supposed to be doing?
its a shame that this is the best that we can produce as a PM in a democracy,
so basically in a round about way you are saying that
firstly why do u have to run to tangents when you dont have an answer. that tactic may work on others but I see right through it :) lets not compare the prime minister under a dictator to prime minister in a democracy. Now that we have a democracy, the prime minister needs to be running the govt, leading the nation, not some dude who inherited the party in a will.
how is he the best person to lead the nation? because he is good at taking orders? today if he has to meet with any other country's leader he gets his marching orders from zardari. is that what the prime minister supposed to be doing?
So what exactly should he be doing, making his own decisions without regards for the party. If you can someohow prove to me that the decisions him (or Zardari) are making are against the wishes of the PPP, then you have a case, but sadly you cant prove that. None of the PPP members are against Zardari's appointment as the president either, which shows that they are 100% behind him.
So what exactly should he be doing, making his own decisions without regards for the party. If you can someohow prove to me that the decisions him (or Zardari) are making are against the wishes of the PPP, then you have a case, but sadly you cant prove that. None of the PPP members are against Zardari's appointment as the president either, which shows that they are 100% behind him.
he should be a leader who makes the decisions..with regards to the party, but not one who gets told what decisions have been taken by asif zardari. they can be behind him, etc etc, but the leader of the nation is prime minister, he should be making the decisions he should nto be told what to say. I mean in essense it looks like we agree that we think he is basically a puppet, u seem to find nothing wrong with it, I think thats odd and not the way a PM should be in a parliamentary system of govt.
he should be a leader who makes the decisions..with regards to the party, but not one who gets told what decisions have been taken by asif zardari.
So in his 100 or so days of power, can you tell me any decision which was NOT taken according to the wishes of the party?
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they can be behind him, etc etc, but the leader of the nation is prime minister, he should be making the decisions he should nto be told what to say. I mean in essense it looks like we agree that we think he is basically a puppet, u seem to find nothing wrong with it, I think thats odd and not the way a PM should be in a parliamentary system of govt.
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I dont because I tend to thin of him as a party man, and the PPP is very united, despite some pro-mushies ruling it out as a thing of the past a few years ago. Gilani speaks for the PPP. I would love it if you could prove that wrong though.
Re: prime minister or prime marionette
look yar. parties arent heads of states. an individual with a political affiliation is a head of state, which means that you show some character of your own.
think of any prominent world leader in any democracy. it does not behove a leader to go scurrying to his party leadership for every decision. he is supposed to be holding the highest office in the land, and he is acting like a handmaiden to zardari.
Re: prime minister or prime marionette
^ Thats the thing, you guys are equating the PPP to Zardari. Read this slowly...
Gilani is supposed to do what his party wants. So far, this is what hes been doing. First you mention the fact that a party isnt supposed to be a head of state (which is not true in a parlimentary system), then you called Gillani a handmaiden to Zardari. First make up your minds whether its the party running the show or whether its Zardari. If you arrive at the conclusion that the party and Zardari are on par, well then whats the problems? Also, can you guys tell us what you want Gillani to do?
^ Thats the thing, you guys are equating the PPP to Zardari. Read this slowly...
Gilani is supposed to do what his party wants. So far, this is what hes been doing. First you mention the fact that a party isnt supposed to be a head of state (which is not true in a parlimentary system), then you called Gillani a handmaiden to Zardari. First make up your minds whether its the party running the show or whether its Zardari. If you arrive at the conclusion that the party and Zardari are on par, well then whats the problems? Also, can you guys tell us what you want Gillani to do?
When a politician joins a political party it means his interests/motives are aligned with the party, when party makes him "Prime Minister" then it means party trusts with the guy that he'll deliver what party's mandate/motto is. He can consult party (if he wants) for BIG issues but not for every little issue. He is supposed to have his own thinking and decision making ability.
Re: prime minister or prime marionette
spock, u seem to be having difficulty understanding what a prime minister is supposed to be in a parliamentary system. Please refer to the actions of prime ministers of places like britain, canada, and as I said even India.
I have no issue with him being a party man, I have an issue with him not being the leader of the nation but an errand boy.
my issue is that in his 100 days of power he seems to be looking to party leadership to make a decision for him.
Re: prime minister or prime marionette
as others have pointed out, you are completely incorrect in your contention that the majority political party is the head of state in a parliamentary system or that political parties make all the decisions in a parliamentary system. The ONLY dependency the executive has on the legislature is through a vote of confidence/no confidence measure, otherwise it is very common, infact the norm, for the prime minister to have tolerably large divergence with party positions.
For reference please see the actions of Tony Blair vs the politics of Labour, and his unpopularity within the party. Please dont tell me UK isnt a parliamentary democracy. That is one example, please dont spend time fixating on tony blair's personal circumstances or that he is caucasian, please feel free to cite any other stable, well developed parliament where the prime minister keeps running to the party for every decision.
Now finally you say what is the difference between zardari and PPP? none. sadly PPP is a one man party, much like other political parties in Pakistan. However that one man party merely accentuates the extent to which Gilani's "what should i do now father" is unseemly for the Prime Minister of a country of any worth.
This is not fair! Gillani no longer runs to Zardari for every decision! just in case you missed your newspaper over this weekend, Zardari moved to Prime miniter house for “security reasons”. which means Gillani can wake him up at 3:00AM in the morning to consult for any decision he is making. :halo:
Re: prime minister or prime marionette
i doubt Gilani will wake him up at 3 a.m. for urgent decisions Xeno. probably wait till morning when he takes in Zardari's jam and toast
i doubt Gilani will wake him up at 3 a.m. for urgent decisions Xeno. probably wait till morning when he takes in Zardari's jam and toast
Ravage you missed the point there.. :D what about Zardari? will he wait till morning?
my issue is that in his 100 days of power he seems to be looking to party leadership to make a decision for him.
For me, that is not an issue... As long as hes true to the party that got elected by the masses, hes the man.