Re: Presidential Reference
Only if it were that simple but to answer ur question, nope.
okay then so someone should not be punished for corruption.
I see where you stand , it explains everything :) Thank You
Re: Presidential Reference
Have I? 
… seems that apart of being confused, you also have bad memory or good in accusing others with fabricated allegations 
Until now, in all my post I have written that CJ is alleged and when a person is alleged he is just Mulzim (suspect), not Mujrim (guilty). I would only call him Mujrim (guilty) if SJC would give their verdict against him. It is also possible that SJC consider him innocent of all allegations and in that case, he wont be guilty of anything.
To me, until a person is proven guilty, should not be considered as guilty.
Re: Presidential Reference
An interesting article By Ansar Abbasi
the article i believe shows the concerns/views of the wider public
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=6644
Though the reference filed against Justice Chaudhry is still not public, the camp office reverberations are too clear about the charges framed. One can clearly hear the president saying to the chief justice: You have used your influence to pressurise the concerned authorities to win undue favours for your son — Dr Arsalan Iftikhar.
The CJ says: Be specific Mr president.
President says: Dr Arsalan sought admission in Bolan Medical College despite securing marks far below the merit. The Balochistan chief minister was approached following which your son got into the medical college.
The CJ says: Sir who is the violator — me, Dr Arsalan or the chief minister?
President says: Dr Arsalan was initially posted as section officer in the Health Department, Balochistan against a vacancy meant for initial recruitment through the Provincial Public Service Commission. On August 6, 2005 the Interior Ministry approached the Balochistan Government seeking the services of Dr Arsalan for his posting in the FIA in public interest. On August 13, 2005, the Balochistan Government conveyed its no-objection to the Interior Ministry following which the Ministry on August 15th and again on September 5, 2005 issued the posting order of Dr Arsalan in the FIA on deputation. On 30th September Dr Arsalan joined the FIA.
The CJ says: What is the point you want to make Mr president?
The president says: Without completing the mandatory period of his probation as medical officer in the Institute of Public Health, Quetta, Arsalan was transferred and posted first as section officer in the Balochistan Secretariat against a non-existing post and then sent on deputation in the FIA.
The CJ says: Who violated the law and where do I figure Sir?
The president says: In November 2005, the Balochistan Government relaxed the rules to confirm the appointment of your son as medical officer in the Provincial Health Department. Barely within 5 months of having assumed the charge of assistant director FIA in BS-17, the Balochistan Government issued an order on March 22, 2006 saying that Arsalan’s services are placed in the FIA as deputy director (BS-18) on deputation for a period of three years. On April 7, it was notified that he had assumed the charge of the office of DD FIA.
The CJ says: Who violated the law and where do I figure Sir?
The president says: Later you launched an offensive to get your son inducted into the Police Service of Pakistan, which under the law was only possible through the CSS. As first step, he was sent to the Police Academy for training with probationer ASPs as notified by the Interior Ministry on May 19, 2006. On 24th May the Interior Ministry issued another order directing the commandant National Policy Academy that Dr Arsalan should be attached with the Punjab Police after the completion of specialized police training in the academy. On May 24 2006, the Academy relieved Arsalan and directed him to report to the Elite Police Training School, Lahore. After the completion of the course, he was to report to Lahore police for six months field attachment.
The CJ says: Mr president who is the violator?
The president says: Meanwhile the Prime Minister’s Secretariat was approached for regular induction of Dr Arsalan in the Police Service of Pakistan in BS-18. The PM sought the Establishment Division (ED)’s view, which said it is not possible under the law. Later you pressurized the secretary Establishment to get Dr Arsalan inducted into the PSP no matter what the rules say.
The CJ says: Sir, who told you this?
The president says: The secretary Establishment told all this to the principal secretary of the prime minister. It was not possible but still you kept on pressing for the impossible task. Ultimately the Establishment Division had to propose an amendment in the rules to make this impossible a possible. During these days you have been regularly exerting pressure on the Prime Minister’s Secretariat.
The CJ says: Sir do you have any concrete evidence? Secondly, if my son was inducted into the Police Service of Pakistan?
The president says: You also exerted pressure on the Interior Ministry to ensure that your son is nominated for a foreign course on combating international terrorism. This was done despite the fact that your son was not a police officer.
The CJ says: Sir who was the nominating authority?
The president says: Being the CJ, you are entitled to one 1600cc car but you have seven including a Mercedez Benz 3000cc in Islamabad. You also have several cars at Lahore and Quetta. Additionally you have also, more than once, asked the provincial chief minister or governor to provide you the cars during your stay in the province.
The CJ says: Sir if I am an exception?
The president says: You have also been insisting and getting protocol that is not allowed to the CJ.
The CJ says: Hummmm…
The president says: You have been repeatedly demanding for official plane/helicopter of the provincial governments for your travelling from one place to the other and even to offer condolences whereas you are not allowed to use these luxuries.
The CJ says: At times one requires faster transport means to save time.
The president says: For sometime you and your family has been using a BMW car registration No “Razia-1”.
The CJ says: If so, is it a crime Sir?
The president says: You are also accused of passing orders but subsequently changing them when giving the same in writing.
The CJ says: Who says so Sir? I hope it is Naeem Bukhari.
The president says: You also used you influence to enhance the entitlements of your office.
The CJ says: Where was I wrong?
The president says: Face the above charges or?
The CJ says: I will.
Re: Presidential Reference
An interesting article By Ansar Abbasi the article i believe shows the concerns/views of the wider public
.
trash, yellow journalism crap article, that shows the mentality of the wider public, which is a sensationaliztion loving, personality worshipping or hating, mob. which does not have the balls to look at itself and its ugly corrupt face in the mirror.
Re: Presidential Reference
^He does raise very valid points.
If the issue here is to punish the corrupt, all those involved in bending the laws to accomodate Dr Arsalan should be punished and cases be brought against them.
Its funny that so many different people are said to have been involved in whole scandal including the Prime Minister Secretariat and yet no action has been taken against any of them.
It just re-enforces the point that corruption has got ntohing to do with the issue.
Now as for as Iftikhar Chaudhary is concerned, is he a hero? By no means he is. Atleast not for me. If he had been an honest and upright person he would not have taken an oath on PCO, he would not have provided a cover for overthrowing an elected government. On a persobal level i am not dying in his love. But the point here is that an army chief shud not be allowed to play havoc with every institution in the country. And he shud nto say that CJ is being removed on accounts of corruption....thats ridiculous.
Re: Presidential Reference
okay then so someone should not be punished for corruption. I see where you stand , it explains everything :) Thank You
Thats an allegation, not conviction. As no judgment has been passed, I do have a right to suggest that CJ should not be punished as I do not believe he's done anything wrong, and more importantly for the reason that he's not being punished for his sins.
Like I said, its not that simple but just to answer ur Q..nope :)
Re: Presidential Reference
I may be mistaking u for someone else then. Let me check
Re: Presidential Reference
^He does raise very valid points.
If the issue here is to punish the corrupt, all those involved in bending the laws to accomodate Dr Arsalan should be punished and cases be brought against them.
Its funny that so many different people are said to have been involved in whole scandal including the Prime Minister Secretariat and yet no action has been taken against any of them.
It just re-enforces the point that corruption has got ntohing to do with the issue.
Now as for as Iftikhar Chaudhary is concerned, is he a hero? By no means he is. Atleast not for me. If he had been an honest and upright person he would not have taken an oath on PCO, he would not have provided a cover for overthrowing an elected government. On a persobal level i am not dying in his love. But the point here is that an army chief shud not be allowed to play havoc with every institution in the country. And he shud nto say that CJ is being removed on accounts of corruption....thats ridiculous.
very rightly said.
Re: Presidential Reference
if thats ur description of the wider public & the article then you couldn’t be more wrong…
first it used to be mullahs, ok they’re extremists and hardliners…
now its lawyers, ok they’re CJ worshippers…
however, these views are not restricted to lawyers only..they go far beyond them across people, be it any post..and No, they dont all hate musharraf..they include his supporters as well
one should take the arguments from both sides (or from different perspectives if you like) while being neautral i.e. before one labels either side as fundos,haters,lovers,corrupt…that Fraudz is the key 
Re: Presidential Reference
hey, read the definition of yellow journalism and then debate wether my designationof this pieceof trash is that or not.
here the author is not reporting facts, he is assuming what went on, he is putting his spin on it to suit his agenda and then he is creating a fake situation to support it.
as far as mullah’s being militants… i dont see local kabbadi club blowiing up places or a bunch of burger girls doing a drive by in Pakistan..
as far as lawyers being CJ lovers. I did not say they are CJ lovers. I said that their intentions are not as altruistic as people may think. their actions were not as clean as people think..proof..why were they throwing rocks at police. I have been at many protests, in pakistan and in US, how many times have I thrwn a rock..zero. how many times did police tell usnot to pass a line or go into a building, or moved us from where we were etc, almost 100% of the time.
yo disagree with my description of the wider public? please go and read about lower level corruption in pakistan, go and see, stuff people do not becaus etheya re forced to but because they can get away with it. read some reports on water being stolen by farmers, read about electricity being stolen by people, look at people thorwing trash on teh street, pissing on people’s property, spitting paan and niswaar everywhere… what is there to disagree..go read on how many people in pakistan pay their taxes…
being nuetral does not mean one closes his eyes
Re: Presidential Reference
trash, yellow journalism crap article, that shows the mentality of the wider public, which is a sensationaliztion loving, personality worshipping or hating, mob. which does not have the balls to look at itself and its ugly corrupt face in the mirror.
Exactly!
Re: Presidential Reference
You know people in Pakistan often don’t have a view point. They do things for the sake of doing it.
The SJC will hear arguments from both sides, thats what they are there for. This demonstrates the idiotic mentality of our people, don’t investigate someone for corruption because we don’t want you to and because I don’t like the person bring a reference against him. The sanctity of the Judiciary is maintained by its people and also defamed by its people when they think being a lawyer they are not subject to the laws they use. The bottomline is until our people change their high levels of stupidity and corruption they will not be welcome anywhere in the world and doors will close on them one by one. Our media under the banner of freedom are also broadcasting how asinine the people of Pakistan are free of charge. Now where can you get such high adrenaline entertainment.
Re: Presidential Reference
^He does raise very valid points.
he does? I seem to have missed ALL of them.
[quote]
If the issue here is to punish the corrupt, all those involved in bending the laws to accomodate Dr Arsalan should be punished and cases be brought against them.
[/quote]
No it's not.. the issue here is the responsibility that comes with being the head honcho dispensing justice.. a sub inspector influencing a headmaster to get his kid into school is not the same as the CJ Of Pakistan wielding his influence around..
[quote]
Its funny that so many different people are said to have been involved in whole scandal including the Prime Minister Secretariat and yet no action has been taken against any of them.
[/quote]
ok.. so I'm the big CJ and if I pressure you to do something wrong, and you cave in, it's YOUR fault?
[quote]
But the point here is that an army chief shud not be allowed to play havoc with every institution in the country. And he shud nto say that CJ is being removed on accounts of corruption....thats ridiculous.
[/quote]
what's ridiculous about these charges? previous justices have avoided publicity at ALL costs.. they don't even attend family weddings to avoid unnecessary public contact that might taint their image of fairness
And here we have this clown, riding around in Mercs and having his incompetent son promoted and placed with utter disregard for merit... not to mention his stupid antics of summoning every official into his 'darbaar' as if he's running the country.. The moron deserves to be sacked and a judge worthy of sitting in that chair should be promoted.
Re: Presidential Reference
hey, read the definition of yellow journalism and then debate wether my designationof this pieceof trash is that or not.
here the author is not reporting facts, he is assuming what went on, he is putting his spin on it to suit his agenda and then he is creating a fake situation to support it.
as far as mullah's being militants... i dont see local kabbadi club blowiing up places or a bunch of burger girls doing a drive by in Pakistan..
as far as lawyers being CJ lovers. I did not say they are CJ lovers. I said that their intentions are not as altruistic as people may think. their actions were not as clean as people think..proof..why were they throwing rocks at police. I have been at many protests, in pakistan and in US, how many times have I thrwn a rock..zero. how many times did police tell usnot to pass a line or go into a building, or moved us from where we were etc, almost 100% of the time.
yo disagree with my description of the wider public? please go and read about lower level corruption in pakistan, go and see, stuff people do not becaus etheya re forced to but because they can get away with it. read some reports on water being stolen by farmers, read about electricity being stolen by people, look at people thorwing trash on teh street, pissing on people's property, spitting paan and niswaar everywhere.... what is there to disagree..go read on how many people in pakistan pay their taxes....
being nuetral does not mean one closes his eyes
the article actually starts of by implying that it is based on assumption..obviously based on the letter/the reports that have been circulating in the press before the issue started..and comparing this to the reference posted in this post; one can establish that the article does not exaggerate on any allegations..so saying that he's putiing a spin on this n that is out of the question
however, what it does show as I mentioned earlier are the views/concerns of the wider public...
what u've mentioned in this reply is totally irrelevant to what I responded to initially
i.e. you alleged the wider public to be holding such views because they are personality lovers,haters,mobs etc.
lols i've seen students(non mullah) blow up stations in london; not all mullahs protesting for masjids/mullahs protesting for mma/or other some matter blow up buildongs; not all lawyers throw stones; not all that are supporting CJ hate musharraf..and no I havent seen kabaddi players blow up buildings either haha
ya I also know about the corruption that goes on at all levels...neither did I disagree on any such matter..however all this was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make..
Re: Presidential Reference
the article actually starts of by implying that it is based on assumption..obviously based on the letter/the reports that have been circulating in the press before the issue started..and comparing this to the reference posted in this post; one can establish that the article does not exaggerate on any allegations..so saying that he's putting a spin on this n that is out of the question
of course it is a spin, it is a dramatization of events that did not happen in the way he is suggesting. he is being sarcastic and is doing ti to drive a point across. this is classic yellow journalism.
*i.e. you alleged the wider public to be holding such views because they are personality lovers,haters,mobs etc. *
Pakistanis bay far are personality lovers. voting is along personality lines, why are BB and Nawaz and Altaf still relevant, do you see john major in UK, or Dan quyale in US still being top dogs in their parties?
*lols i've seen students(non mullah) blow up stations in london; *
yeah but they had mullah mentality. any desis blowing up stuff which is non mullah is an exception ave for the ethnic violence we saw in the 80's and 90's in pakistan.
*not all mullahs protesting for masjids/mullahs protesting for mma/or other some matter blow up buildongs; *
yup but most of the stuff being blown up is by mullahs, most of the kfcs being torched are being torched by mullahs, as I said you will not see some burger mummy daddy college kid doing that..
*not all lawyers throw stones; *
yep, as a matter of fact not all lawyers even came out to protest...but the focus is on the ones that came out to protest, and thry threw stones, and whether 10 in a crowd of 200 throw stones of 50, when a crowd throws stones, they get phainti,,true in every country.
yaar dekho, the point that you were making that this was some massive sentiment in Pakistan ... sentiment is just that, ppl get over it, look at cricket until yesterday pl wanted to fire woolmer, lynch inzi and what nots, woolmer dies and inzi retires and ppl are sad and crying, sentiments change..very quickly. Now as far as real desire for change, either its not there or the public is stuck in apathy, otherwise they could have easily come out in the streets...but they did not.
and lastly I will say it again, when we hold leaders accountable fo something, we need to hold ourselves accountable as well. what i said was a big confusion I have in my mind...even when benazir and nawaaz were booted and ppl were all so happy that the corrupt ppl were out, I looked and said...yes...yrue, but what about the corruption at general awaam level..
Re: Presidential Reference
i dont know what yellow journalism is and i havent looked it up as yet..
although you have got a different opinion on the article..i believe its very straight forward and there are no spins involved..its no dramatisation and it does not mater what the sequence of the qestions were at their meeting and what the counter arguments were..the reference is published above so the meeting obviously involved the points published if not more.. what the article still suggests is that the reference is not substantial enough for such a step being taken by the governement with the sole intention of getting CJ punished for the mentioned acts..plus people who sanctioned such moves on the request/pressure of the CJ are to be punished first..
now saying that people are backing him because they are personality lovers is wrong..
and true, people have not come out on the streets either
being neutral doesnt mean close ur eyes..it means opening ur eyes to see both sides of a situation
as musharraf rightly did in his interview when he talked about the violence between lawyers and police.. :D
I agree with you on everything else that you've said..that indeed is the situation
Re: Presidential Reference
^^^ well that happens with every son/son in law of a plitician, beurocrate and army higher ranks.
so its not an exception but norm in Pakistan. the point is why he is being single out? .
WHAT???
I should have never replied to You. ...
what the hell are you saying....
The chief justice is the apex/hallmark/pinnacle of justice in Pakistan, he should be singled out firstly! if even he gives RS:2/- extra to get a better plate of pani poori.
Re: Presidential Reference
WHAT??? I should have never replied to You. ... what the hell are you saying....
The chief justice is the apex/hallmark/pinnacle of justice in Pakistan, he should be singled out firstly! if even he gives RS:2/- extra to get a better plate of pani poori.
LOL then mushy must be first person to be tried for treason and violating the law and did he NOT house arrest the CJ saeed-uz-zaman siddiqui.
all i mean to say is please dont have different standards for different ppl.. although we are all a bunch of munafiq's , mashalla, but then.. ...never mind..
Re: Presidential Reference
Presendial reference...LOL
it was uniform and re-electing from the same assembly Reference .....!!!!!!!!