[QUOTE] Originally posted by NeSCio: *
gupgupyy, i don't know if you ever had had any course/lecture/enlightening in *logica, but let me try to explain here.
it goes something like this:
we have two quantities/collections A and B.
If A is true, and B is part of A, then B is automatically true.
So in other words, we only have to assume that A is true (=the dogma) then claim B will be automatically true.
Now if we assume the dogma outlined above, then the second two propositions are automatically true, cuz they are stated in A (Qur'an)
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Proving what i've already said... your only argument is to put forward certain unproven assumptions (your dogmata) which you then try to substantiate by reference to circular arguments...
Your "logic" tells us nothing about the truth (or falsehood) of A... you are assuming A to be true, therefore it is not quite the case, as you put it, that "claim B will be automatically true" rather claim B will be "assumed" to be true (see the difference?)... it still remains an unproved assumption since it's built on an unproved assumption... "B is true on the assumption that A is true" is circular logic if the truth of A is unsubstantiated...
In any case, your same "logic" can be applied to the "truth" of hadith, hence defeating your entire argument...
ok, tell me. where do you want to start then? in your case nothing at all can be proven. The whole fundament of human interaction is to accept certain dogmata and start off from there.
let alone my arguments for a while then: How do you want to prove anything? there is no such thing as absolute knowledge....at least not to humans, so when we go back and back we will end up with an assumption of some sort.
All in all, there are ppl who assume the existence of a deity and tehre are ppl who don't. Neither of these will be able to prove the other wrong. Instead both have their own sets of judgements based on logic that derives from this basic dogma.
Coming back to yuor theory now: you -according to your Islamic teachings- are not only making the assumptions I make (as dogmata), but when having blind faith in the intergrity of Hadith you make additional assumptions as well. As I said, the hallmark of a good theory is to use as few as possible dogmata.
It's all very simple, so you should be able to understand...
You criticised something (hadith in this case) because - you believed - its legitimacy is built on a circular argument... in attempting to defend your own position you've actually shown that your own claims about faith and, in particular, the Qur'an, are built on similar circular arguments and unproven assumptions... case closed...
Thats ok, and I can understand why you were asked to reply here again, you are very sugar coated indeed but please do not make fool out of some one. I know what you taking about and who you are defending and why. you do not need to worry about me, let me do my work and you can enjoy reading what you like and ignore what you dislike, so simple.
Thank you :)
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And who is making the assumptions now??? It is very easy to point people out on what you might consider as their flaws, behter hai ke insaan pehle apney aap ko dekh liya kare.
And NO ONE ASKED ME TO REPLY HERE since I know no one in this thread, can't I have an opinion of my own??
And for your information, there is a differen between having consideration for other people and being 'sugar coated' as you call it. If there is one thing I can't stand about someone it is if them being sugar coated, so don't accuse me of being that again.
And mujhe pata hai ke aap ab ye 'defending' waali baat nahin chhorein gey. You are very good at twisting around people's intentions and words to your own benefit, whether is makes sense or not. ( which in this case it doesn't)
And what advice is this?! "ignore what you dislike" (?!?!?!?!)
Seems to me you have missed the whole point of this thread...
Hence for me it's my last post. Promised just one and ended up with 3 =S, khair.
Allah Hafiz.
Ps: Sorry for going all off the topic Salman bhai.
that’s the whole crux! Hadith is a well-fitting theory if seen from within. However, since the basic (extra emphasis added!!!) dogma of religion is the existence of God, I don’t see how someone starting off from this dogma ends up believing that the only three sports allowed are archery, horse riding and playing with your wives
That’s a pretty reckless jump you’ve made there if i may say so… you’ve gone from proving the authenticity of the text to questioning people’s interpretations and understanding of what the text might mean… you are starting to skate again…
For the sake of completeness, can you please explain how participating in the three named “sports” conflicts with belief in the existence of God? (You might like to start by citing the full hadith first).
Finally, can you explain how someone starting off from the basic dogma of God’s existence ends up believing that if you wish to pray after having “touched a woman” and can’t find water then instead you must “take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands”?
For the sake of completeness, can you please explain how participating in the three named "sports" conflicts with belief in the existence of God? (You might like to start by citing the full hadith first).
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I don't see why a God would prohibit man from e.g. soccer/cricket. I can't find anything explaining that from the Qur'an. So I cannot induce/deduce that from my basic sources.
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Finally, can you explain how someone starting off from the basic dogma of God's existence ends up believing that if you wish to pray after having "touched a woman" and can't find water then instead you must "take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands"?
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I cannot explain it...and that's when i start questioning it.
I don't see why a God would prohibit man from e.g. soccer/cricket. I can't find anything explaining that from the Qur'an. So I cannot induce/deduce that from my basic sources.
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You might like to start by citing the hadith first...
(p.s. You are also being presumptuous in introducing the Qur'an as your "yardstick" given your earlier arguments-from-assumption and circular logic.)
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I cannot explain it...and that's when i start questioning it.
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You might like to start by citing the hadith first...
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man, it's ironic that I have to find hadith for people who are the strongest advocates of them.....
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"questioning it"? In what sense?
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well as it says: questioning. I want to get to the bottom of it. Want to have a scientific approach to it and see what we get out of it. Are there scientifically valid approached to the Hadith that have been carried out recently. Would it be possible to verify the Hadith in this era? etc. etc.
please note: questioning is NOT the same as rejecting...
man, it's ironic that I have to find hadith for people who are the strongest advocates of them.....
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Are you actually going to quote the hadith (you do know where it is don't you!?) or just pussy foot around in circles… (circular arguments, circular logic, pussy footing around in circles – you do make me laugh)…
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well as it says: questioning. I want to get to the bottom of it. Want to have a scientific approach to it and see what we get out of it.
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Go on then, stop pussy footing around and do it... i'll repeat my question in case you've forgotten: Can you explain how someone starting off from the basic dogma of God's existence ends up believing that if you wish to pray after having "touched a woman" and can't find water then instead you must "take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands"?
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Are there scientifically valid approached to the Hadith that have been carried out recently. Would it be possible to verify the Hadith in this era? etc. etc.
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Your own position and arguments fall short of the very standard of proof you ask others to submit their views to… i'll prove it… Care to show me a single scientific means of verifying that the Qur'an you read today is the same as the one first revealed? No!? Thought not...
nesico, how do you pray? just answer that question and i will leave you alone.
tell me how you pray just plain and simple...type all your actions...plain and simple
If some one has choosen to go to a non muslim place to work for a better future. Then
1) Your performance of duty is aayene ebadat, do it well, it is farz,exactly the way salat is ferz. All faraeiz are equal as all officers are equal.
2) You are lucky you are with people who are not muslims.
3) God has provided chance to let them know how good muslims are, through your nice,friendly, honourable behavour.
4) After they become friendly, try to just mention something about their religious mishaps and good things about religions.
5) If you are a good person they would listen to you. It all depends on your qualities as a muslim.
6) God gave you chance to spread his religion.You should be thankful to God
7) but big B U T you should tell and explain islam through their believe not from your believe and your ahadeez and your QURAN and if they argue you should not run away. This would reflect weakness in your believe. Lucky people who get chance to prove to non muslims that muslims are good. Bye Sokoon
