Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
The reason your approach is flawed is…
Divorced people on their own are perfectly fine people. Its the combination of those two specific individuals that leads to divorce.
I am divorced and now remarried. When I was dating, I met a couple of people who turned out to be ex’s of my friends. It was strange. So awkward. But I kid you not, you’d never be able to tell if any of the stories I’d heard were true if you met them in a coffee shop like I did. They were normal, great, educated, polished, etc. They had as much to dish out as my friends did on them. And this happened a couple of times…my community was very large but also very tight knit. It was hard not to know someone through someone.
What I am trying to tell you is…marriage is the ultimate gamble and risk. If you are trying to take a calculated risk in marriage, you’ll be disappointed. The only thing you have control over is you. You have to make up your mind to try hard and be a good partner. Its rare to be able to judge whether someone will want a divorce in a formal rishta meeting. Unless they walk in tarred and feathered with a sign that says “I am crazy”, you’re pretty much gambling.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
It’s a really bad deal for someone who believes divorce(regardless of options) as something to be a means of absolute last resort, to get married to someone who sees it as a tool to win arguments or to prove a point or is just immature about it.
I think it will only upset her and her family. Even if this rishta doesn’t work out, everyone involved wants to remain on good terms with each other.
Yes, she was born and raised in the US. She is a patient and educated girl. The guy’s side was introduced by another common friend over Skype. Both sides liked each other. The girl’s parents totally like this guy primarily because he is from the same neighbourhood in Pakistan as they themselves grew up in and see a strong connection. So some more friendly group meetings were set up so the guy and the girl can get to know each other more. The difficult thing for the guy’s side(and for others) to interpret is casual statements by the girl on different occasions such as, “I will never leave my parents”, “I will never be the typical wife”, “honeymoon should be at least 1 month long”, “your(the guy’s) parents cannot tell me anything”, etc. Others present tried to discuss this more to get a better understanding and it got super awkward super fast. The honeymoon bit came up after the guy mentioned that he doesn’t want to spend too much on his wedding as he’ll be paying for everything himself. Both have never married before. Also, her mom interrupted her a few times when she starts going into detail about these things. So it’s a lot of guess work at this stage as to what actually is on through this girl’s mind.
I wonder if whatever she said was mere childish talk on her part or she really meant it. If she really meant it then one will have to think how flexible she’ll be about that and other unforeseeable things. Having difference of opinion is one thing but seeking divorce instead of resolving issues and compromising here and there is quite another. That is the rabbit hole this rishta is going down nowadays.
Being smart and knowledgeable is not an issue. The issue is whether the smarts/knowledge is going to be used in building things or destroying things. I have a prenup in place but for me a marriage is forever, unless something super crazy happens.
Sorry to hear that you went through it. I totally get that it is the right thing to do in certain scenarios. I’m glad things eventually worked out for you real well but everyone is not so lucky. I agree with you that the first time we meet someone, there isn’t much we can predict about them and especially about something as serious as their beliefs about divorce. But during later meetings in the process, there might be. I don’t like the idea of putting people under microscope. Not at all. But if there is a big red flag of some sort, it’s not wise to ignore that. Some may think this effort is frivolous but I think may be there is something that people have figured out that is useful especially for those who are not getting married themselves and are involved in advisory roles since they can evaluate things more dispassionately.
I agree that marriage is ultimately a gamble, but there are good gamblers out there who may give bad gamblers a few tips.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
Every action a person takes, regardless of gender, comes to two basic factors. Disposition and Opportunity.
For the former, look for signs of narcissism/selfishness. Not a good idea to hitched with one.
For the second, if a person, man or woman, has more to gain from divorce, than staying in marriage, AND, they have not invested much into the relationship, he/she will go for it.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
“I will never leave my parents”, “I will never be the typical wife”, “honeymoon should be at least 1 month long”, “your(the guy’s) parents cannot tell me anything”
The lady is trying to say no without actually saying it. She doesn’t wanna get married or at least does not want to get married to this guy. Who says these things? She’d phrase these preferences differently if she was actually serious about the whole thing. I’d nope the f out of the whole thing hearing just one of these things.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
The way it is phrased is off putting.The **“I will never” **bit makes her sound very stubborn which is not a good quality in a spouse regardless of gender.
You’re right about typical meaning different things to different people. She could talk about specifics, “I’d prefer I’m not the only one doing all the house chores, taking care of kids, …”. Discussing specifics without using “I’ll never” would be the way to go.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
**Don’t be sorry. I am not. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I think your friend and this girl need to talk more one on one. I also think your friend needs to think about how far he willing to go to accept a new person in his life. Is he willing to meet her halfway at least? **
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
To me she sounds like a control freak & dictator. You both are going to start a life together & you both should be included in a decision making process but it seems like she has decided everything on her own without even including you in the process. She wants everything done her way perhaps. Did she even bother asking you what “you” want ?
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
Before anyone even talks about the girl, the guy needs to decide what his values are and what kind of wife he wants. Does he want a stay-at-home wife? Is he ok with his kids being raised by nanny/daycare? Is he ok with living in the city the girl lives in currently for the next 20-30 years OR does he want to leave the option of moving open? How close is he to his parents? Is there a chance his parents might move in with him in the future when they’re old/sick? Does the guy like to live simple/low-key OR is he into nice/luxury items? Is he the type of guy who likes to show a girl that he loves her by taking care of her in a traditional manner OR does he have a romantic streak in him (loves to give flowers, write romantic cards, surprise her with other small gifts etc.)? Does the guy cook or do any housework or does he believe that the wife should do it all b/c he works? How soon after marriage does he want to start having children? What are his thoughts on finances after marriage (does he want everything joint or does he still want to maintain separate accounts? Would he be ok if in the future his wife’s parents needed to move in with him and his wife due to age/health? He’s new to the U.S…so is he ok with his wife socializing with male friends or male co-workers? Is he ok with his wife wearing items like skinny jeans/sleeveless tops etc? Does he care whether she wears hijab or prays 5x/daily? Eating halal?
Once the guy has made up his mind on these types of things, he needs to find a girl whose answer matches his.
As for this girl, we are all making assumptions b/c her comments are vague. He needs to find out what is her definition of “typical wife” and how exactly does she envision her life as a wife and mother. What is her definition of "honeymoon? Is she expecting to be like at a exotic location on vacation for a month? What does she means by not “leaving” her parents? Is she unwilling to move to another city? What about moving 2 hours away? Or does she expect to always live close enough to visit every other day?
I’m very against having parents/elders sit there at the same table while the girl/guy talks. The mother here clearly won’t let the girl talk and share her true feelings. Even if it’s b/c the girl is immature due to age, that itself is an indication that she’s not already for marriage right now. In my opinion, the girl and guy need to meet at a public location for lunch…just the two of them and talk openly about the things I mentioned in the first paragraph. The devil is always in the details.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
I don’t think her boundaries and desires are “childish talk” (apart from the honeymoon stuff). She has the right to want to have a connection with parents and not be controlled by in laws. This is just a wake up call for that dude that he should find someone else. Clearly he has an issue with her statements, and she should not be coerced into becoming the “”“”“ideal wife”“”" that the guy wants for the sake of a rishta. In fact, like someone else posted, that might be a hint that she doesn’t want to get married.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
Sometimes there can be lots of delusions and many people severely miscalculate their value, I came across some young girls who had just moved from Dubai and from their standards and the way girls are pursued there they had fairy tale expectations. They wanted the prince charming who would be handsome, wealthy, wouldn’t expect them to cook and clean or have a job. Same goes for guys, I had seen these guys who were fairly weak males, short, rolled shoulders, lack of grooming etc and were acting like they are Gods gift to women. This is why interaction is important so the guys and gals can be realistic in their expectations. The Divorce rate amongst Muslims in America might be approaching 40 percent.
BTW I had told my wife that these girls will have a hard time finding matches and they are now approaching 40 and single. Although if you are financially and emotionally independent, which they are not then nothing wrong in being single.
Re: Predicting threshold of filing for divorce in a woman
Beautifully put.
But then why she just won’t say, ‘no’ and stop wasting everyone’s time? AFAIK, there is no pressure on her regarding this particular rishta. Her parents really like this guy and see a connection with him but have left the choice completely in her hands. Her parents perhaps need to tell her that all those sweet talking fake guys she may have heard about don’t stick around for long.
I would disagree a bit there. Most people may say so, but actual beliefs about divorce are quite diverse.
Of course he cares about the things you mentioned. He wants a wife not a roommate. All the basic things seemed fine in the initial introduction, only then things moved a bit forward but her certain statements have become a bummer. Not in and of itself but the signals it sent. One of his major requirements is, flexibility. Since he’s building his life in a new country, he cannot be sure of things to come in next 20-30 months, let alone 20-30 years. Still things are on going and I don’t want to post any information that could potentially make the people involved personally identifiable. I just hope whatever is best for both, happens.
You are right in that but as I said no one involved wants to upset her or her family and want to keep things pleasant.
