Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

that is correct PCG.

However, the same word when came to urdu, it adopted another meaning besides the Ka'abah.

In urdu when we use the phrase Qiblah durust karnaa, it actually roughly means to make your direction or focal point correct. With that in mind, it is actually a metaphor to say that for muslim the correct focal point is ALLAH.

So, you can see how "urdudized" understanding of Quran can become when taken out of context. :-) It can be bravely done by those who have no clue other than what is being put in their minds by people like Pervez and Rashad khalifah and the likes.

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

great.. so we agree that my translation is from Qur’an and Arabic alone and yours is influenced by a ‘context’ created outside of Qur’an many years after the Qur’an was revealed.

and PCG the word “Qiblah” did NOT literally mean “a place to which you direct your prayers” .. it literally means a ‘focal point’ or ‘direction’ regardless of the action associated.. you can associate any action with it after the Qur’an was revealed to make it sound like anything but thankfully Allah guards His Book Himself and gives those who wish to learn clues so they are not confused by post Qur’anic Persian conspiracies against the Qur’an.

[10:87]And We revealed to Musa and his brother, saying: Take for your people houses to abide in Egypt and make your houses قِبْلَةً and keep up prayer and give good news to the believers.

So now would u say Musa and his brothers and their people were all using their individual houses as “direction in which they prayed”?

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

absolutely… We take the context of ayah from Rasoolulah:saw: and yours has nothing to do with that. You are an ALLAMA of your own Islam.

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

PA, in what sense according to you did Muslims take the first qiblah (2:144) as a ‘focal point’ (your preferred literal translation) and are now instructed to take the second qiblah (2:144) as ‘focal point’?

so qiblah and prayer are mentioned in the same context… in any case, how are you translating qiblah in this verse?

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

[font=Comic Sans MS]In *Súra Al-Baqara *v.143, we read:

[font=Comic Sans MS]"The fools among the people will say: "What has turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say: To Alláh belong both East and West; He guides whom He pleases to a Way that is straight. "

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

PA?

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

*
[QUOTE]
why did Allah tell us to bow infront of a physical monument every time we worship him? Couldn't we have just had the intention of worshipping him in our hearts and could have prayed in any direction? What are the reasons behind this? Thank you.
[/QUOTE]
*
**
allah told us so that we glorify Alka'aba much more than if it was not our qiblah
another thing that we should be aware of is: we do not worship Alka'aba we just direct our self towards it when we praay only in accordance with the orders of our creature and our god "ALLAH",
and this remind me of what Omar ibn Alkhattab -radya Allahu anhu wa ardah- said when he kissed the black stone:" I swear that I know that u do not binifit or harm and unless I saw the mamassanger of Allah kissing u I wouldn't do so"
he -Omar -RAA- - said so so that the people who saw him doing so know that he did not kiss the black stone for any reason but sunnat Mohammed -salla allah alayhe wasallam-

And about the intintion of worshiping Allah i think the people here did not miss any thing :)

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

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Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

sir anjjan
ur info r “Very very wrong information.”
first of all:
the prophet Mohammed -:saw: - did not bring up anything from his big fulled poket as u have implyed, ALLAH said:
"وما ينطق عن الهوى إن هو إلا وحي يوحى"
"Nor does he speak of (his own) desire
It is only an Inspiration that is inspired."The star 3-4,

please can u bring me the source of this understanding"where did u underatand this from"

who ever read this thinks that they were fought to surrender, please chose ur wards properly.

who did say that these info are from Qura’an :confused: ??

did u know that Qura’an stated that the earth was an ellipsoid of rotation or calleda spheroid as stated here: http://www.profc.udec.cl/~gabriel/tutoriales/giswb/vol2/cp1/cp1-2.htm

said ALLAH:
“والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها”
the ward “دحاها” or dahaha is a verb which means:
daha is to roll something over another surface antell u make it in a semi-ball or sphere shape
wow… Mohammed did fly to the outer space before the americans and the soviet could or he just studied math and physics in oxford or hartford and then calculated and used galileo telescope to get to this result oh my, isn’t he genius?? :slight_smile:
thanx a lot i had much fun

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

sir PakistaniAbroad :

u r the last one to talk about being literal…
as every body else said to u before me: “what is the context ?”
and another thing is :
in tafseer we have something called “أسباب النزول”=“causes of inspiration” and this particular thing is a factor of a great role in determining the “tafseer” of the ayah we are talking about. about this paricular ayah u r upset about its tafseer:
said Allah:
“لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ”
"It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west "

tafseer alqutobi:
فقال قتادة : ذكر لنا أن رجلاً سأل نبي الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عن البر ، فأنزل الله هذه الآية . قال : وقد كان الرجل قبل الفرائض إذا شهد أن لا إله إلا الله ، وأن محمداً عبده ورسوله ، ثم مات على ذلك وجبت له الجنة ، فأنزل الله هذه الآية . وقال الربيع و قتادة ايضاً : الخطاب لليهود والنصارى لأنهم اختلفوا في التوجه والتولي ، فاليهود إلى المغرب قبل بيت المقدس ، والنصارى إلى المشرق مطلع الشمس ، وتكلموا في تحويل القبلة وفضلت كل فرقة توليتها ، فقيل لهم : ليس البر ما أنتم فيه ، ولكن البر من آمن بالله .
and because u know arabic very well u can ubderstand this script, right??

and of course u know that in Abbas:razi: is the best in tafseer, and he said:
فقال بعضهم: معنى ذلك: ليس البر الصلاة وحدها، ولكن البر الخصال التي أبينها لكم. حدثني محمد بن سعد قال، حدثني أبي قال، حدثني عمي قال، حدثني أبي ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن عباس قوله: ليس البر أن تولوا وجوهكم قبل المشرق والمغرب ، يعني: الصلاة. يقول: ليس البر أن تصلوا ولا تعملوا، فهذا منذ تحول من مكة إلى المدينة، ونزلت الفرائض، وحد الحدود. فأمر الله بالفرائض والعمل بها.
(tafseer al tabari)

tafseer fath al qadeer indicates:
ليس البر قرأ حمزة وحفص بالنصب على أنه خبر ليس والإسم أن تولوا وقرأ الباقون بالرفع على أنه الإسم قيل: إن هذه الآية نزلت للرد على اليهود والنصارى، لما أكثروا الكلام في شأن القبلة عند تحويل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى الكعبة، وقيل: إن سبب نزولها أنه سأل رسول الله سائل، وسيأتي ذلك آخر البحث إن شاء الله. وقوله: قبل المشرق والمغرب قيل: أشار سبحانه بذكر المشرق إلى قبلة النصارى لأنهم يستقبلون مطلع الشمس، وأشار بذكر المغرب إلى قبلة اليهود، لأنهم يستقبلون بيت المقدس وهو في جهة الغرب منهم إذ ذاك. وقوله: ولكن البر هو اسم جامع للخير، وخبره محذوف تقديره: بر من آمن. قاله الفراء وقطرب والزجاج ، وقيل إن التقدير: ولكن ذو البر من آمن، ووجه هذا التقدير: الفرار عن الإخبار باسم العين عن اسم المعنى، ويجوز أن يكون البر بمعنى البار، وهو يطلق المصدر على اسم الفاعل كثيراً، ومنه في التنزيل إن أصبح ماؤكم غوراً أي غائراً وهذا اختيار أبي عبيدة.

hhhhhhhha i am happy, this is just great to see the greatness of Qura’an and the wideness of arabic language :subhan:

I hope that this is enough for this ayah!!

here u r talking about this ayah,
Allah said:
“قَدْ نَرَى تَقَلُّبَ وَجْهِكَ فِي السَّمَاء فَلَنُوَلِّيَنَّكَ قِبْلَةً تَرْضَاهَا فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَحَيْثُ مَا كُنتُمْ فَوَلُّواْ وُجُوِهَكُمْ شَطْرَهُ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُوْتُواْ الْكِتَابَ لَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا يَعْمَلُونَِ”
"Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammads SAW) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. "

I don’t know what is the problem in this ayah???:confused:
it is direct at least in the majority of it .

[right]القبلة:التي يصلى نحوها. مختار الصحاح صـ457[/right]
see, but realy i don’t know who is to know arabic the best u or alrazi??

:halo:

when u want to build a house, shouldn’t u learn some engineering first?

u just should know this:
Qura’an was not revealed in complete independence of the circumstances of the world and the society… how could it be for humans if it did not care about them??

as i said before asbab al nozol are of the basics to get the right tafseer(and all of the “Olama’a” of tafseer said before i do)…

this is something to contradict with what u have imlyed before:

:confused:

please do not take every thing on ur own, did u concider looking at any book of tafseer???

u are asking about this ayah:
Allah said:
“وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى مُوسَى وَأَخِيهِ أَن تَبَوَّءَا لِقَوْمِكُمَا بِمِصْرَ بُيُوتًا وَاجْعَلُواْ بُيُوتَكُمْ قِبْلَةً وَأَقِيمُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَبَشِّرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَِ”

"And We inspired Moosa (Moses) and his brother (saying): “Take dwellings for your people in Egypt, and make your dwellings as places for your worship, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give glad tidings to the believers.” "

tafseer al qurobi says:
واجعلوا بيوتكم قبلة قال أكثر المفسرين: كان بنو إسرائيل لا يصلون إلا في مساجدهم وكنائسهم وكانت ظاهرة، فلما أرسل موسى أمر فرعون بمساجد بني إسرائيل فخربت كلها ومنعوا من الصلاة، فأوحى الله إلى موسى وهارون أن اتخذا وتخيرا لبني إسرائيل بيوتاً بمصر، أي مساجد، ولم يرد المنازل المسكونة. هذا قول إبراهيم و ابن زيد و الربيع و أبي مالك و ابن عباس وغيرهم.

tafseer altabari:
واجعلوا بيوتكم قبلة ، يقول: واجعلوا بيوتكم مساجد تصلون فيها.

*I did not translate the arabic scripts because of the assumbtion I have made about u knowing arabic

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

blab blab blab blab :o
spport please with some making-sense reason, if this is just an opinion, then

it is ur opinion alone

and who did tell u so m. funny??

said Allah:
“وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ اجْعَلْ هَـذَا الْبَلَدَ آمِنًا وَاجْنُبْنِي وَبَنِيَّ أَن نَّعْبُدَ الأَصْنَامَِ”

"And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said: "O my Lord! Make this city (Makkah) one of peace and security, and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols. "

talk without knowing is a bad habit in this forum…

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

in islam:
if someone do not worship Allah alone with full faith, loyalty and devotion he is considered to be “Mushrik” = some one who does not worship Allah alone.

and what is mohammedans thing is???:confused:

did any muslim told u that he is mohammedan???

saying: mohammedans, u r not referring to muslims

and what Murtis are??
and why do u glorify them (if so)??

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

i do not interpret these verses to mean a 'switch of ‘focal points’. It’s more like discussing the same event.. once as a recollection and once going forward.

Unrelated. it’s like saying “give good news to the believers” and Qiblah are mentioned in the same context. I understand it to be a simple instruction of making their homes the center of their focus and attention.

A strong argument against “Qiblah” being THE PLACE TO FACE FOR PRAYERS is that Ibrahim came before Moses.. so a direction must have existed.. only if in knowledge, for the poeple of Moses to use it as their “direction of prayer”.

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

i’ll hear you better if you dropped that font color!

sorry.. i don’t buy post Quran’ic wild guesses on where and why a particulr verse was revealed.

Your assumption is incorrect… and i really don’t care for any tafsirs. Tell me what YOU have to say. If you wish to drag in references, kindly put them down in English for everyone to understand.

well you’re welcome to suspend your sensibilities and rely on razi to speak for you in the hereafter.. i’ll take matters of my salvation in my own hands.

we’re not building a house.. we’re trying to understand a Book sent TO us.. for OUR reading and understanding.. i hear the Author had enough knowledge of the learning abilities of it’s core audience.

please do.. i’d love to know what this al-qurobi chap had to say about this verse…

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

Hi PA,

The Israelites were captives (slaves) in Egypt and didnt have the freedom to worship in a temple. They didnt have Jerusalem at the time either.So it would seem reasonable to me that their homes were their separate qiblahs. If you read the Old Testament, you will find Moses ordered the Israelites to put blood on the door posts of every Israelite house, to make it holy, not a central sanctuary. It is amazing that Mohammad would have known this, isnt it? Afterall you apparently didnt and you have access to the internet.

I am not sure I understand your reluctance to accept the sacred mosque as the new direction of prayer. The context of the verse suggests the Jews and Christians would question why the old one was being abandoned and this new one established. What do you think the Jews and Christians were objecting to when this new qiblah was established?

regards,

bob

Re: Prayers In The Direction Of Kaaba

From a Jewish website, confirming they didnt have a sanctuary until Moses led them out of Egypt and gave orders to build it:

What was the world like before the Sanctuary was built? Like a chair with two legs which cannot stand firm, but shakes: when a third leg is made for it, it stands firm. So when the Sanctuary was made, the world became secure, for at the beginning, the world stood only on two legs, namely, on lovingkindness and Torah, and it shook, but when the third leg was made for it, namely, the Sanctuary, it stood firm. (Numbers Rabbah, Naso XII, 12)

The reason for creating the sanctuary in the Old Testament and Jewish tradition is similar to the reason given in the Quran, i.e. to please the people not Allah:

The Holy One said, "As truly and you live, I will let my Shekhinah (God's Presence) dwell among them so that all may know that I have forgiven Israel. My sanctuary in their midst will be a testimony of My forgiveness of their sins, and hence it may be called a 'Tabernacle of Testimony.'" (Exodus Rabbah 51:4)

The erection of a sanctuary among Israel was begun in answer to a direct appeal from the people, who said to God: "Eternal One of the world!" The kings of the nations have palaces in which are set a table, candlesticks and other royal insignia, that their king may be recognized as such. Should you not, our Sovereign, Redeemer and Helper, employ royal insignia that all the dwellers of the earth may recognize that You are their Sovereign?" God replied: "My children, the kings of flesh and blood need all these things, but I do not, for I need neither food nor drink..." (However) God gave detailed instructions for furnishing the Tabernacle, saying to Moses: "Tell Israel that I order them to build Me a tabernacle, not because I lack a dwelling, but only as a token of My affection for you will I leave My heavenly temple and dwell among you." i.e. Obviously you need such a place. It will help you experience Me. (Midrash Aggadah Ex 27:1 and Tanhuma Buber IV 35)

regards,

bob