Whenever possible I try to advance the prospects of Pakistanies or Muslims. At times this means supporting a possibly less qualified Muslim over someone who’s group identity might be seen as rivalling mine, for example, an Indian.
Is there any Islamic basis for what can only be called nepotism or arguably unfair favouratism towards Muslims (I realise there wouldnt be towards Pakistanies)
Re: Positive Discrimination
once abu musa ashari recommended to umar b khattab[ra] that there is a christian who knows economics very well ...can I i.e abu musa] appoint him as a secretary ?
Umar [ra] got angry and did not allow him to appoint him as a employee of a islamic state
so in a islamic state a nonmuslim cannot even be a "chaprasi"
but if we are in a nonmuslim state then we have to give priority to merit IMHO as we are not in a position to discriminate against nonmuslims its unfair as we are twisting a system according to our personal beliefs. If we have our own govt. then we appoint based on their religious merits not on other things.
It was after Ali [as] that the kings began appointing nonmuslims over muslims for admininstrative posts
so your intention is absolutely right as long as u are in a muslim country , if not IMHO it makes little sense
Re: Positive Discrimination
I'm of the mindset that a person should be appointed on pure merit, character, and background. However when it comes to appointment affairs, in a muslim nation, a ruler or ruling class should be Muslim. The reason for that is obvious, because there is a conflict of interest. Ideal muslim governance is faith based and the laws passed are derived from the Quran and guidance taken from relevant ahadith to help understand matters which may have previously been dealt with in the times of Prophet (PBUH). So, it is important to appoint someone who believes in the book and can follow and implement policies and understand them thoroughly.
Nonmuslims too should have representation, so they are not sidelines, but policy-making should be by a strictly muslim body.
And ideal ruler is of the highest merit and who would insure rights of all citizens regardless of their faith, looks after non-muslims, and protects their rights. (i.e. Caliphate Era)
It really actually depends what kind of post/appointment we're talking about. There maybe some fields of work/knowledge that a muslim is not qualified enough in, in which case a more qualified person should be appointed because while Islam preaches brotherhood,** it also strongly preaches Fairness and Honesty even if it hurts you.**
Is there any Islamic basis for what can only be called nepotism or arguably unfair favouratism
god is not unfair, and god does not want us to be unfair.
its prejudism that you are giving the sugarcoating of 'positive discrimination"
Whenever possible I try to advance the prospects of Pakistanies or Muslims. At times this means supporting a possibly less qualified Muslim over someone who's group identity might be seen as rivalling mine, for example, an Indian.
Is there any Islamic basis for what can only be called nepotism or arguably unfair favouratism towards Muslims (I realise there wouldnt be towards Pakistanies)
Imagine if a similar comment was made by a non-muslim. All hell would have broken loose and Ravage would have been the first person to scream "Racism". I am surprised that somebody who is so educated is doing this and is proud about the same. Imagine if everybody started thinking along your lines, would any muslim get a well paying job anywhere.
Please stop this and dont try to find excuses for your attitude from a Holy Book.
but if we are in a nonmuslim state then we have to give priority to merit IMHO as we are not in a position to discriminate against nonmuslims its unfair as we are twisting a system according to our personal beliefs. If we have our own govt. then we appoint based on their religious merits not on other things.
It was after Ali [as] that the kings began appointing nonmuslims over muslims for admininstrative posts
so your intention is absolutely right as long as u are in a muslim country , if not IMHO it makes little sense
DR sahab you are simultaneously more severe and less than I. I feel that it is okay to employ non-Muslims, but also okay to prefer Muslims over non Muslims even outside a Muslim state. You say it would be twisting the system, why does the system matter?
Picture this, would the second caliph's response be different during meccan times?
It really actually depends what kind of post/appointment we're talking about. There maybe some fields of work/knowledge that a muslim is not qualified enough in, in which case a more qualified person should be appointed because while Islam preaches brotherhood,** it also strongly preaches Fairness and Honesty even if it hurts you.**
I wasnt speaking of any policy/admin positions, more technical stuff.
so if I understand you.. you would hire a more qualified person if a Muslim wasnt qualified enough.. this implies you are somewhat agreeing with what I am saying even though I phrased it more provacatively. Obviously I wouldnt want to hire a dropout for a quantum mechanics position because of his religion.
god is not unfair, and god does not want us to be unfair.
its prejudism that you are giving the sugarcoating of 'positive discrimination"
unfair is perhaps the wrong term for it. say biased. would you agree that God is biased?
Imagine if a similar comment was made by a non-muslim. All hell would have broken loose and Ravage would have been the first person to scream "Racism". I am surprised that somebody who is so educated is doing this and is proud about the same. Imagine if everybody started thinking along your lines, would any muslim get a well paying job anywhere.
Please stop this and dont try to find excuses for your attitude from a Holy Book.
I dont see what education has to do with it. Every group in a multicultural society tends to cluster together. In any society, not just individuals, but groups are often in competition with each other. This is just an act of group loyalty. If I hired everyone else but left out a particular group, that would be racism.. I would never admit to something like that.
once abu musa ashari recommended to umar b khattab[ra] that there is a christian who knows economics very well ...can I i.e abu musa] appoint him as a secretary ?
Umar [ra] got angry and did not allow him to appoint him as a employee of a islamic state
so in a islamic state a nonmuslim cannot even be a "chaprasi"
but if we are in a nonmuslim state then we have to give priority to merit IMHO as we are not in a position to discriminate against nonmuslims its unfair as we are twisting a system according to our personal beliefs. If we have our own govt. then we appoint based on their religious merits not on other things.
It was after Ali [as] that the kings began appointing nonmuslims over muslims for admininstrative posts
so your intention is absolutely right as long as u are in a muslim country , if not IMHO it makes little sense
DR, I am not sure what to say about this. I will question the authenticity of this account. If you believe Islam to be fair, just and a religion that preaches both of these virtues you cannot believe and profess these thoughts.
Re: Positive Discrimination
It all depends for what cause and benefit one is being hired. Obviously it would not make sense to employee a non-muslim for the propagation of an Islamic cause or establishment unless the non-muslim does not have an agenda against the cause and is willing to provide skills which will benefit the cause, nothing more or less. There is no absolute answer to this and it is relative to the position and purpose for which one is employed. In case I work for some company then my duty is the propagate the best interests as long as they do not conflict with my essential beliefs. The organizations goals should be understood and on what basis differentiation is to be provided.
Just to quote an example, for those who do not know, when the Prophet SAW migrated from Makkah to Madina accompanied by Abu Bakr RA, which we can regard as one of his most perilous and endangered journies and a journey which led to the birth of a muslim state, his SAW guide was a kafir. Interesting isn’t it. The Prophet SAW relied on a trustworthy kafir who had superior navigation skills who would not jeopardize their interests.
DR sahab you are simultaneously more severe and less than I. I feel that it is okay to employ non-Muslims, but also okay to prefer Muslims over non Muslims even outside a Muslim state. You say it would be twisting the system, why does the system matter?
Picture this, would the second caliph's response be different during meccan times?
.
firstly meccan times do not count as there was no islamic state during that time
we have to follow the rules in a nonmuslim country and if we apply our own personal preferences than that is discrimination. By the same logic a white person should feel perfectly justified to prefer white people for a job despite being less qualified or even equally qualified.
DR, I am not sure what to say about this. I will question the authenticity of this account. If you believe Islam to be fair, just and a religion that preaches both of these virtues you cannot believe and profess these thoughts.
in a islamic state a muslim and a nonmuslim are NOT equal
so how can muslim and nonmuslim have the same right and opportunities ?
how can islam be fair if it gives a nonmuslim the same rights/priviliges as a muslim?
Re: Positive Discrimination
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravage
I dont see what education has to do with it. Every group in a multicultural society tends to cluster together. In any society, not just individuals, but groups are often in competition with each other. This is just an act of group loyalty. If I hired everyone else but left out a particular group, that would be racism.. I would never admit to something like that.
[/quote]
For just a minute think what would happen if every person in this world started thinking along your lines. If all whites decided that group loyalty was more important than talent , then would you have got a job.
BTW a question : Did you get educated in Pakistan.
For just a minute think what would happen if every person in this world started thinking along your lines. If all whites decided that group loyalty was more important than talent , then would you have got a job.
BTW a question : Did you get educated in Pakistan.
In the corporate world everything is driven by who generates better profits irrespective of where their group loyalties may lie.
in a islamic state a muslim and a nonmuslim are NOT equal so how can muslim and nonmuslim have the same right and opportunities ?
how can islam be fair if it gives a nonmuslim the same rights/priviliges as a muslim?
Dont expect an equal status in non-muslim countries then.
For just a minute think what would happen if every person in this world started thinking along your lines. If all whites decided that group loyalty was more important than talent , then would you have got a job.
It is in their interest to hire me. If a country's policy explicitly says that they must prove they tried to find a local person and failed before they hired a foreigner (a clear distinction based on birthplace) then I dont owe my job to a white/brown/black local person. I beat him out for this place, and overcame the group loyalty that is legally mandated.
[quote]
BTW a question : Did you get educated in Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
Middle East, Pakistan, US, UK, in that order.
Middle East, Pakistan, US, UK, in that order.
Still you have such mentality.
Re: Positive Discrimination
whats with the personal attacks yar chintu
Re: Positive Discrimination
Good job ravage :k: I do not think yours is a religious issue, it is more a nationalistic view of things. Look at indians, aik ghusta hai, peechay peechay poora gaoN le aata hai. Meri mano tou hire only pakistanis and fire a few indians 
Althoug, the fair thing is to hire on merit, but at times i question, is it?
Bcoz, all nationalities and ethnicities favour their own. A keralite will get 10 keralites every year in work place, so will the egyptions, sudanese, chinese etc. If we do not try to get the Pakistanies employed then thats going to be unfair n our part, right?
It is in their interest to hire me. If a country's policy explicitly says that they must prove they tried to find a local person and failed before they hired a foreigner (a clear distinction based on birthplace) then I dont owe my job to a white/brown/black local person. I beat him out for this place, and overcame the group loyalty that is legally mandated.
Excellent response.