Portraying the Prophet

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Portraying the Prophet

For what part of my mail do you want references?

The one I wrote after ‘What I believe’ regarding present day photography is mine and if you want to and it is acceptable to you, you can use that as reference. :hoonh:

Obviously, there was no camera during the time of Prophet (SAW) nor there was any way to take photograph by natural (Allah created) means and the only way was portraits (or carvings) made by hand that only create resemblance.

Both present day photography and hand drawn portraits (even carving pictures of living things on woods or cloths) are different things and results are different too. One is hand drawn portraits (or carvings) of a subject resemblance and other is Allah created true image of the subject captured on Allah created canvas (a recent technological discovery).

Now if anyone starts giving reference regarding present day photography, it cannot be from Prophet (SAW). It would be from other humans like me, unless you are one of those who believe that there was prophet after Prophet (SAW) who told about this new stuff.

As for me saying that misrepresentation is haram in Islam, are you in doubt about that (and need references)?

Or are you in doubt when I wrote: ‘According to many hadiths. Islam does not allow hand drawn portraits? [True, Hadiths does not say, ‘hand drawn portraits’ as it says picture, but that is what it was, hand drawn portraits or carvings as obviously, there was no camera at that time to take pictures, or was it?].

You have all the right to disagree with what I wrote as you have right to disagree with any references I may post. So, what is your real problem?

And yea, if you will write that ‘The moon is a cube’, it won’t be a problem with me nor I would comment or ask for reference, rather I would think that either you are hallucinating or that you have serious problem with your intelligence, eyes or brain, that’s all. If my mail looks ridiculous to you, you can think the same, no problem with me. :hoonh:

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Saleem, it’s all well and good, but where are QURANIC REFERENCES which I asked for. First off, I don’t want Hadith references, but you’ve even failed to provide those. Can you say WHICH hadith? Or more importantly can you say WHICH quranic verse forbids us to draw pictures? That is what reference means. If you read any literature, REFERENCE means provide some documentation and make sure that these aren’t your opinions. If you fail to understand what a REFERENCE is, then you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Al Farooq, I’m still waiting for a Hadith that shows how many rakas and how to pray.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Please allow me to refer you to this document:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Salah/hanafi_salah.html

It explains the entire method of offering Salat in the light of hadith. Please note that this pertains to the Hanafi school of thought only. Others have their own analysis of Ahadith in this context.

I hope you will not ask this question agian! :slight_smile:

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Well, when I did not quoted Quran or even mentioned Quran in my mails, why you asking me of Quranic references? Did I write anywhere in my mail that I am going to provide Quranic reference on the subject?

Regarding Hadith, there are few but it seems that you do not want to even put few minutes of your precious time to look for hadith, do you?

Here is a site, go there and write ‘picture’ (click on Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud) then run the search and you will find all the hadith on the subject.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Regardless, I just made passing reference to hadiths with general statement that there are hadiths that forbid pictures of living things, portraits or carvings (that does not mean that I agree with all the hadith there on the subject as perfect, rather some are … )

My mail on this thread was on Islamic teachings and principle that to misguide anyone is not Islamic. Misrepresentation is misguiding others and portraits or carving of a particular living object can only result in resemblance and that if taken by others as true looks of the subject, it would be misguidance. Thus, portraits or carvings can only misguide others and thus considered prohibited in Islam (that is my understanding on the subject).

Now if you are Muslim, you can decide between two things:

A. Does Islam allow misrepresentation (that can lead to misguidance) or it does not allow.

B. Is portraits or carving a true picture of the person it portrays or just resemblance (that can misguide people regarding the look of that person).

If you think that Islam allows misrepresentation then you can discard my arguments and do whatever you believe (obviously, I do not believe that Islam allows misrepresentation).

If you think that Islam does not allow misrepresentation then you can decide regarding portraits and carvings, that if it is true picture of the subject it portray or not.

If you think that portrait or carving is not true picture of the subject (person) it portrays then obviously that would be misrepresentation (if taken by others as true looks of the subject). Thus, if that is the case, Islam cannot allow that.

If you think that portrays or carving are true picture of the subjects then again it would be your understanding that I do not agree. *.

Do you find the above arguments that hard? If not then what reference do you want? If you are finding the argument that hard then I give up. OK, thanks :)*

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Thanks Ramyssys, however, the hadith doesn’t seem to say THIS IS HOW MANY RAKAHS YOU SHOULD PRAY, etc etc. It is just Hadith describing what the Prophet appeared to be doing. But no direct words from Prophet on how many rakaahs to pray etc.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Thanks for all responses, it is apparant that the Quran doesn't forbid drawing pictures of people. Thanks.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

The Prophet’s :saw: act is a hadith (hadees-e-failee) as well. So is the case where he :saw: saw something happening and kept quiet (did not forbid) (hadees-e-taqreeree). What you are referring to is the third type where he actually spoke about something (hadees-e-qaulee). In Urdu, the three types would ba called as:

1- Hadees-e-qauli
2- Hadees-e-failee
3- Hadees-e-taqreeree

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

There are many other things which are not mentioned in Quran:
1. Wordings of Azan & Iqama
2. How to pray and how many rakaat
3. Days of Hajj (8th till 12th Zil-hajj)
4. %age of zakat that should be paid (2.5 %)
and so on.

So if we go by your logic and discard everything which is not in Quran, we should discard all of the above.

It is you who is saying Quran is incomplete because if I go by ur logic and discard everything that is not in Quran, I can't even say Azan. I'm saying Quran is complete as it has ordered us to follow Prophet and following Prophet means looking into Hadith alongwith Quran.

Mr. Saleem's logic is wrong too, as he is asking me to pray the same way as I see people praying around me. So his logic is to discard Hadith but follow the traditions.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Actually Al-Farooq, the Quran says to follow the religion of Abraham, Monotheism. When the Quran says to the people of the time to follow Abraham's religion, it is given that the people of the time knew what Abraham's religion was and as such knew its practices, ie Salat, Zakat, Hajj. Quran is a statute book, it is a revision. For instance, it revises things like sexual intercourse is allowed at night in Ramadan while previously it was forbidded for the whole month. So there's your answer to things that aren't covered in the Quran, those things were assumed known. However, that's OK, I have my answer, there is nothing in the Quran that makes people think that drawing pictures is forbidden.

Let's Play 1 2 3...
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Re: Portraying the Prophet

[quote]
Al-Farooq:
Mr. Saleem's logic is wrong too, as he is asking me to pray the same way as I see people praying around me. So his logic is to discard Hadith but follow the traditions.
[/quote]
Farooq Bhai, Assalaamu alaikum.

Well, my logic is wrong, could be, no one is perfect :) Thanks to correct me.

Hmmmm, I feel there is something fishy smelling in your statement. Your statement makes me ponder on something and I want to ask you about it.

From your mail: You said that I am asking you to pray the same way you see people praying around you and that you consider wrong and thus you rejected what I said as illogical.

I started praying when I was little. I learned wadu, prayer rituals, when to pray, how to pray, what to read, number of rikah in prayers, actually everything that is fard from my parents, teachers and people around me. Since you are different and believe it is wrong to learn by follow people around you, then maybe you must have learned your religion in different way.

So, just for query, what age did you started praying and how did you learned to do wadu, pray salah (with all the rituals) and learned how many rakahs are there in each frad salah?

I mean, can you please be kind enough to let us know that at what age you started praying, how did you learned number of salah in each prayer, how you learned to do wadu and how you learned how to do salah rituals, what to read and at what position to read what in prayers?

Did you learn all this after reading hadiths book?
Or
Did you learn all this from your parents, teacher and people around you?

So, can you please answer? I will wait for your reply eagerly. Thanks :)

Can you please tell me how earlier Muslims learned their prayers and other Islamic rituals when Hadith books were not even there?

Prophet (SAW) (died: 11 H). How you think Imam Abu Hanifa (born: 80 H), Imam Malik (born: 93 H), Imam Hambal (born: 164H), Imam Shafi (born: 170 H), Imam Bukhari (born: 194 H), Imam Muslim (born: 202 H) and other Muslims of their time learned fards and other Islamic rituals?

If these people learned all Islamic fards and rituals from people around them (as I believe all would agree) then why you feel so ashamed to admit that people who came later also learned their Islam from people around them?

Do you really think that Muslims were ever dependent on hadiths to learn Islamic rituals and other fards?

Please be true in your answers. My question is to do with Islam and you will be responsible of your answers to Allah. Thanks.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

So you believe in some assumptions of the time of Ibrahim (A.S.), but u don't believe in Ahadith of the time of Prophet PBUH which r properly documented. Kiya baat hay, I admire u.

You asked a simple question: drawing pictures is forbidden acc. to Quran? Answer to that is No. You asked for Quranic references only.

Now my simple question: is there any ayat in Quran that says "pray 3 rakat of Maghrib" or "perform Hajj during 8th to 12th Zil-Hajj"? I need Quranic reference ONLY (just like u demanded a Quranic refernce). I don't need explanations, statements, traditions, assumptions, just one word, Yes or No. Thanks.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Al farooq, the answer to your question is no, nothing in the Quran, those are things that were known at the time of the revelation of the quran. So, when God says that the Quran is fully detailed, he's lying?

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

^ and where exactly did u read God saying such a thing????

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

if it was fully detailed, could u imagine how thick it would be? Where did Allah swt say the Quran is fully detailed, why do u think Muhammad PBUH taught us how to pray?

The things that were known at the time were taught by whom? and thats why we follow hadith also.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

Quran is incomplete thats why u need hadiths to explain it.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

^ Hadith do not complete Quran - Hadith, and by a similar token the life our beleoved Prophet :saw:, elaborate Quran. Hazrat Muhammad :saw: was an embodiment of Quran. He is our teacher, our Mu’allim!

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

yet for 1400 year u r sill unable to accept which Hadith is right or agree Sunnis have there own hadith n Shia has there own Hadiths.Something imperfect in a perfect religion.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

^ Man himself is imperfect - banda khata ka putla hei!

Hadith is a complete science in itself if one looks at it. However, by no means, it is completely perfect. Even then, there is ample stuff for a Muslim to act on it and follow it. The miracle of all this is that you get a feel of what is right and what is wrong once you start acting on it. This is made possible by Allah Almighty, as He always guides those who have a true thirst for truth.

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Re: Portraying the Prophet

... And He leads those astray who don't want to tread the right path. He makes them blind and deaf, so that they cannot distinguish between the right and the wrong. In Quran's words... Summun, bukmun, umiun, fahum la yarjioon!