Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
On a positive note, only 200-300 idiots showed up to hear mullahs screaming.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Dont start tallking Sh1t about Islam because of some nut job Mullahs… You dont see anyone bad mouthing Christianity because of all the nuts jobs in Europes long checkered history.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Pakistanis have been rather muted this time around. Thank GOD that they havent attacked any Churches as yet… And hope it doesnt get get to that.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Shoot, leave that to the Palestinians! By all means give these people a country. Never mind the fact that they are attacking a Greek Orthodox church which has *nothing *to do with the Pope. Violent Idiots.
Churches attacked in Gaza, W. BankAssociated Press, THE JERUSALEM POST Sep. 22, 2006Palestinian police guarding a church in Nablus exchanged fire with assailants and chased them away early Saturday, witnesses said.
Shortly after midnight, the sound of heavy gun fire was heard outside the Roman Catholic Church in the West Bank city .
Resident Abdel Salam Abu Rob said police guarding the church were exchanging fire with wouldbe assailants. Police guards were posted at churches in the West Bank and Gaza last weekend, after a first spate of attacks.
Residents said they heard intensive fire for about 20 minutes. There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage to the church.
Ealier Friday evening, three small pipe bombs were thrown at a Greek Orthodox church in Gaza city , a church official and police said.
A church official in Gaza City, Nabil Ayad, said one bomb was thrown at the facade of the church, shattering glass windows of a nearby van. The main entrance was blackened.
Two other small bombs were thrown inside the church compound, Ayad said. The extent of damage was not clear yet, Ayad, the caretaker of the church said.
There were no reports of injuries. Police officials said the assailants hurled small pipe bombs at the church, which make a loud noise, but cause little damage.
The early morning shootout in Nablus came after a day of protests in the West Bank’s largest city, as Hamas supporters took to the streets after prayers, shouting slogans against the pope and waving Hamas flags. Raising their hands to the sky, the more than 2,000 protesters chanted: “We put up with hunger, detention and occupation, but we won’t put up with the offending the prophet. We sacrifice our lives for you prophet.”
Marching in the streets of Nablus, the protesters called the pope a “coward and agent of the Americans.”
In northern Gaza, more than 1,000 Islamic Jihad supporters shouted in praise of the prophet, and waved black flags. Khader Habib, an Islamic Jihad leader, told the crowd that the pope’s comments “indicate that this pope doesn’t understand Islam or the prophet.”
In Ramallah, hundreds of Hamas supporters marched around the city center.
Churches in the West Bank and Gaza have been attacked by firebombs and gunfire in recent days, as part of a Muslim uproar over remarks by Pope Benedict XVI last week, seen as insulting to Islam.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
someone is really desparate trying to equate the religion with emotions of its followers.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
I cannot understand your way of thinking . May be my fault. But think how they started the killing in Bangla , by calling Jihad. No muslim scholar/leader protested. In Turkey how did they kill the Christians. by calling Jihad and the leaders supported it ,even you are supporting it terming nationalism and what is the result; the extnction of a peacful community. The same as what happened in early period of Islam. The tragedy is that it is again and again happening wherever muslims have considerable political influence Please check the demographic distribution of Turkey in the early part of 20th century and now. Now the people of Turkey is 99.9% muslims whereas they were only 70% in the beginning of the 20th century!!!. Where are the christians? All embraced Islam ? If so very fine and good. When these horrible and dreadful act of murder taken place, is there any word from a distingushed muslim to distant the act from Islam ? If no what the world should think ? And if a non muslim ,in this context read Koran what he shoul take?. Islam is a religion of peace and reason? You didnot give any comment about the act of Aurangzeb the mugal emperor. Whether his acts were not in the name Islam? and do you support his acts? . But our muslim brotherhood is supporting. Even my friend likes to call Aurangzeb as 'living peer' the name given to him by contemporary muslim historians. When one reads his 'peacful acts' and the praise given to him by Muslims what a non muslim should think? Islam a religion of peace and reason? If Idi amin was cruel and bad and did against Islamic principles why Saudi which is considered as holy place and everyone think the image of Islam , give refuge to such aperson? Did amin got any punishment? Here again what shoul a non muslim should think? I am sure that Allah wont forget the genocide happened in Turkey (whic I cosider the worst where Muslims uprooted the very existence of a community in a 'peaceful manner'). But the followers are very kindhearted .So there is not a single word against the act? In the name of religion if a Muslim can kill even the leader of another community (GURU Teg bahadur) and there are lot of followers to support it then surely the inference will not be positive. The tragedy is that still Muslims are not ready to accept the faults and correct it . They are trying to defend . Therefore world can see more and more 'HOLY WARS' against the infidles. hoping your reply
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
How many churches are there in pakistan to attck? . You people are doing some marvellous things. After demolition of the last temle in Lahore now you can boast that no temple will be attacked even if mosques in India are attacked by Hindu fandas. Really secular!
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Pakistanis arent Palestinian genius, so were not their keeper. But I will comment on the Palestinians…
Palestinians are pissed of enough already… They have had their land stolen from them, and have lived under occupation for the past fifty years, and they are constantly vilified by the bias western media.. They are a humiliated people..
Religion is their last refuge.. They are bound to over react to such things whether its justified or not. These people just dont know any better… They dont have luxury of an open and well educated society like you. Its sorta how Americans were attacking SIKHs who have nothing to do with Muslims after Sept 11.
Lastly, one has to see this in context.. This has been building up for a while. As much as Bush and America would want to portray this as a war on terror, Muslims around the world see this as nothing more then an attack on Muslims in general. And lets face it, westerners havent given Muslims much to be confident over.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Listen dip Sh1t.. There are MANY churches all across Pakistan and they are a relatively soft and easy target… There is a long list of such churches. And im not boasting retard, im just thankful that there was no attack on any church in Pakistan. Hopefully this will all die down and nothing will happen. So retract your claws tiger.
As for the Hindu temple, that is still mystery… As far as I know, the temple still stands and nothing was done to it. Regardless, the knocking down of the said temple if it is knocked down is against the tenants of Islam and the law of the land…
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\06\16\story_16-6-2006_pg13_1
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Ofcourse, Aurangzeb is all you need to paint the entire Muslim faith as being violent.. Get a clue dude!
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Leave that to Americans who shot and killed Sikhs after 9/11, who were not even muslims.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
This is the answer ! fine!. Why I stated all these historic facts you know, to get this answer which I expected. I have a strong belief that our society is not ready to accept facts. The answers to many serious questions and facts in this forum strengthens that. Friend this is a fact that many of the Muslim leaders/Kings ,throuhout the Islamic history used or exploited the concept of JIHAD in Koran to achieve their end. You accepted at least Aurangazeb. Many of my friends still tell that he was the only true Muslim Mugal emperor! How can we justify the genocide in Turkey by Jihad? No I am not going further . Surely if we are not changing our views and if the majority muslims are still under the influence of the fanatics nobody can save us. Let the almighty give us the light to see facts,face reality and take steps of correction.
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
[quote=PaKpatriot1]
Listen dip Sh1t.. There are MANY churches all across Pakistan and they are a relatively soft and easy target... There is a long list of such churches. And im not boasting retard, im just thankful that there was no attack on any church in Pakistan. Hopefully this will all die down and nothing will happen. So retract your claws tiger.
As for the Hindu temple, that is still mystery... As far as I know, the temple still stands and nothing was done to it. Regardless, the knocking down of the said temple if it is knocked down is against the tenants of Islam and the law of the land...
Hey Patriot you can become the next PAK army PROMinority commission has filed a case in Lahore high court on the temple demolition. And the court has accepted to look into the matter. Here is the paper news from thenews (Pak daily) LHC moved against demolition of Hindu temple By Our CorrespondentSECRETARY General Pakistan minorities welfare council and member inter-faith committee Om Parkash Narayan, resident of Lal Kurti Bazar Rawalpindi, has moved Lahore High Court for registration of a case against demolition of a Hindu temple situated at Sooha Bazaar, Rang Mahal, Lahore. In his petition Parkash also prayed to the court that the temple should be restored in its original grandeur and form.Petitioner's counsel Ch Fawad Hussain said Kh. Suhail Naseem a resident Wacchoowali Bazaar, Lahore filed an application to the Evacuee Trust Property Board seeking permission to demolish this historic Hindu temple at Sooha Bazaar. He said through a notification on March 9, 2006 the Board chairman of eastern zone had demolished this Krishna temple. He said in sub-continent the places of worship were built in every nook and corner and these were held in great spiritual reverence by all sections of society. After independence it was assured that no laws will be made which were inconsistent or would undermine the importance of religious beliefs of any community. The counsel said in Pakistan, presently the management and maintenance of religious shrines had been assigned to Evacuee Board under Evacuee Trust Properties (Management & Disposal) Act, 1975. According to section 4(2) h & i the Board is bound to incur expenditure of maintenance of holly places not exceeding the amount approved by the federal government. The Constitution provides safeguard to the rights of a man to profess, propagate, perform and practice any religion and to maintain and manage religious institutions. He said even the white in flag of Pakistan represents the minorities and a duty is entrusted to Muslims to protect the rights and interests of the minorities. He asserted that the religious shrines were public properties and according to the settled law no public property big or small, tangible or intangible, could be disposed of except in accordance with law. He said to utter disregard of their statutory duties the respondent had demolished Krishna temple and allowed a jeweler to construct commercial plaza on the site. The action of the respondent is illegal, unconstitutional and without jurisdiction. He said by demolishing the temple, the respondents had conveyed the message that the minorities in Pakistan had no fundamental rights. If the leaders can reject the dead boadies of their own soldiers (in Kargil war) Prajas can deny these facts also. Congrats and keep this hypocracy. Hey patriot there were a number of temples in 1947 which reduced considerably in 1971. In 1992 it again reduced . Now you have to protect all the temples if yoy want to show one to your children, how a temple looks like.. World Muslim Congress Condemns Demolition of Hindu Temple in Lahore (Pakistan, International) • On June 14, 2006 The American Muslim ran as statement by the World Muslim Congress that read, "The World Muslim Congress condemns the demolition of Hindu Temple in Lahore and urges the Government of Pakistan to restore the temple. Muslims follow Islam, a monotheistic religion but not a monolithic religion. Muslims who have deeply imbibed the teaching of Islam condemn the act of demolition of the temple in Pakistan. We do appreciate that several opposition members of the National Assembly of Pakistan from the Pakistan Peoples Party, and Pakistan Muslim League reportedly objected and moved a motion against the demolition, saying such an act could have a bearing on Pakistan’s relations with neighboring countries. We urge the people and the Federal government of Pakistan to join us in not only in condemnation but in restoration... The second Caliph Umar set an example of respecting the sanctity of places of worship when he conquered Jerusalem... The old truism is a valuable lesson and a golden rule preached by all religions 'treat others as you wanted to be treated.'" (June 14, 2006, The American Muslim)
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
All the so called Paki patriots deriding and criticizing Aurangzeb ought to know that if it was not for him they'd all be practicing a more deviant and mutated version hybrid paganistic, ritualistic, and anmisitic hinduism that they already practice in Pakistan....
Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD
Muhammad’s Sword
by Uri Avnery
September 25, 2006
Gush Shalom
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Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.
The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, “walked to Canossa”, standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope’s castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.
But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week’s speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush’s crusade against “Islamofascism”, in the context of the “Clash of Civilizations”.
IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God’s actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.
As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this “war of civilizations”.
In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?
To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:
“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.
These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?
WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.
At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel’s death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.
During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.
In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim “Axis of Evil”. Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.
IS THERE any truth in Manuel’s argument?
The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur’an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: “There must be no coercion in matters of faith”.
How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur’an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.
Jesus said: “You will recognize them by their fruits.” The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to “spread the faith by the sword”?
Well, they just did not.
For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.
True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.
In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today’s Palestinians.
THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the “spreading of the faith by the sword”?
What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi (“Spanish”) Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.
WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the “peoples of the book”. In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.
Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times “by the sword” to get them to abandon their faith.
THE STORY about “spreading the faith by the sword” is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.
Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?
There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of “Islamofascism” and the “Global War on Terrorism” - when “terrorism” has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush’s handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world’s oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers’ expedition becomes a Crusade.
The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?