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Originally posted by eva1921:
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Just think of what has happened in Bosnia. Muslim women who have repeatedly been raped by Serb soldiers gave birth to non-muslim babies.
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I thought all babies were born muslim!
I do not think being married would have saved these women. Sorry this is a digression.
My understanding is that polygamy made sense in a scoiety where women vastly outnumbered men. In today's society that would make polygamy unfair, because it would leave many men without women. So I really don't think that any modern society could think of institutionalising or permitting legal polygamy unless it was couterbalanced in some way by some other legislation.
Ok lets clarify something here, polygamy is permitted in Islam, and there is no messing with that. Sorry Naik, i know you’re talking about something else but people keep bringing this up.
'Islam is the last and final word of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala, ending the series of His messages to mankind. It therefore came with a general law suitable for all times and places, and for the whole of humanity. It did not legislate for teh city dweller only, while neglecting the nomad, nor for the cold regions while ignoring the hot ones, nor for one particular period of time, forgetting later times and the generations to come.
Islam recognizes the needs and itnerests of all people, of individuals as well as groups. And among human beings one finds that individual who has a strong desire for children but whose wife is barren, chronically ill, or has some other problem. Would it not be more considerate on her part and better for him that he marry a second wife who canbear him children, while retaining the first wife with all her rights guaranteed?
Then there may also be the case of a man whose desire for sex is strong, while his wife has little desire for it, or who is chronically ill, has long menstrual periods, or the like, while her husband is unable to his sexual urge. Should it not be permitted to him to marry a second wife instead of his hunting around for girlfriends?
There are also times in when women outnumber men, as for example after wars which often decimate the ranks of men. In such a situation, it is in the interests of society and of women themselves that they become co-wives to a man instead of spending their entire lives without marriage, deprived of thepeace, affection, and protection of marital life andthe joy of motherhood for which they naturally yearn for.
Only three possible alternatives exist for such surplus women who are not married as first wives:
1)to pass their whole lives in bitter deprivation
2)to become sex objects and playthings for lecherous men; or
3)to become co-wives to men who are able to support more than one wife and who will treat them kindly.
Unquestionably, thelast alternative is the correct solution, a healing remedy for this problem, and that is the judgement of Islam:
“And Who is better than Allah in judgement, for a people who have certain faith?”(5:53 (50))
For this is the Islamic ‘polygamy’ which people in the West consider so abhorrent and to which they react with such hostility, without restriction and without having any legal or moral accountability, either in respect to the woman or to the children she may bear as a result of this irreligious and immoral plurality of extra-marital relationships. Let the two alternatives–plurality of wives or plurality of illicit affairs–be compared, and let people ask themselves which is the proper course of action, and which of the two groups is correctly guided!’ [Al-Halal Wal Haram Fil Islam-Yusuf Al-Qaradawi]
Okie dokie, guys now that thats settled, lets focus on Naik’s q’s.
Then there may also be the case of a man whose desire for sex is strong, while his wife has little desire for it, or who is chronically ill, has long menstrual periods, or the like, while her husband is unable to his sexual urge. Should it not be permitted to him to marry a second wife instead of his hunting around for girlfriends<<
What if the roles are reversed and woman is married to man who cannot satisfy her... should she be allowed to have a second husband or she should look for boyfriends
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited June 06, 2000).]
My understanding is that polygamy made sense in a scoiety where women vastly outnumbered men. In today's society that would make polygamy unfair, because it would leave many men without women. So I really don't think that any modern society could think of institutionalising or permitting legal polygamy unless it was couterbalanced in some way by some other legislation. **
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This is what I have been saying all along. Islamic laws had some relevence and were even progressive in some sense in 1400 year old situation for the tribals of Arabia. But in present context, they are not relevent anymore. But Islamists claim that they are relevent for all times.
yea rani...all the friends were surprised when they learned about this, cuz no one was expecting such a thing from that guy...
and no josh, it's not my story (thank GOD)
well, he's gone as far as to say that he'll marry the girl he got engaged to, without doing anything bout his first marriage...and he is in no situation to do that...
there is no way out of this, in which no one would get hurt...someone will most definitly get hurt, and it won't be fair to that person...i suggested to the guy to leave the girl he got engaged to...cuz it's not inscribed in stone as a Nikkah is...
someone gave him the idea that he shouldn't consumate his marriage for 6 months...that way, the NIkkah is automatically nullified...i dunno bout that, could someone here confirm that??
Rani What you are asking is the validity of polyandry (a woman having more than one husband). Polyandry is impractical and creates problems rather than solves them. How will paternity be decided? Which husband would claim fatherhood of the child? How would inheritance be decided? Such questions have no answer in polyandry. Furthermore, it is possible for a man to live with more than one wife and have children from all of them, but for a womean to please more than one husband seems almost impossible. A woman can bear only children from only one husband at a time. Polyandry is forbidden in Islam
To make lawful and to prohibit is the right of Allah(swt) alone.
"Do you see what Allah has sent down to you for sustenance and yet you have made some part of it halal and some part of it haram?"(10:59)
"And do not say, concerning the falsehood which your tongues utter, 'This is halal and that is haram,' in order to fabricate a lie against Allah; assuredly those who fabricate a lie against Allah will not proper."(16:116)
"You who believe! Do not make haram the good things which Allah has made halal for you, and do not transgress; indeed, Allah does not like the transgressors. And eat of what Allah has provided for you, lawful and good, and fear Allah, in Whom you are believers."(5:90-91(87-88))
[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
** This is what I have been saying all along. Islamic laws had some relevence and were even progressive in some sense in 1400 year old situation for the tribals of Arabia. But in present context, they are not relevent anymore. But Islamists claim that they are relevent for all times.**
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ZZ I quote from my previous reply, 'Islam is the last and final word of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, ending the series of His messages to mankind. It therefore came with a general law suitable for all times and places, and for the whole of humanity. It did not legislate for the city dweller only, while neglecting the nomad, nor for the cold regions while ignoring the hot ones, nor for one particular period of time, forgetting later times and the generations to come.'
"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."(5:3)
Islam is a practical way of life. It has responded to reality and necessity. It has also put a check on human tendencies and ensured balance. The system is full of wisdom and is perfectly scientific,completely logical.
Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, has prescribed what is best for us. We should not be apologetic in our approach. Islam provides the best answer to all problems. We cannot blame Islam if we do not know it or fail to understand it. We need to look at Islam as a whole, not only at a part of it. This is because Islam views life as a whole and does not divide it.
[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited June 06, 2000).]
Johny,
I had no idea you were talking behind my back and spreading rumors about my making the breakfast only for myself. How uncanny!
I think NYAhmadi touched on the issue from the right angle. Theoratically speaking, it seems paradoxical that four marriages are not allowed by the same law that upholds the religious freedom.
I think it's not only polygamy, considering the diverse population of US, there could be many other religious practices that are prohibited in US. I think whenever there is such a conflict, the law of the land takes the precedence.
So in this case, even though first amendment gives religious freedom to the citizens, the interpretation and application of that freedom is implicit given the diverse number of religious beliefs and to deal with that implicitness, there are further laws that explictly prescribe certain practices to be exempted from that freedom.
The implication, in other words, would be that 'ok, we'll give you this and that freedom, however, we won't give you this and that freedom as they collide with the fundamental principles we have established to base our code of civic laws on'.
That's the interpretation of the first amendment (not a very good one, I know) in this context.
Now the question arises should it be so? Why not give the complete freedom and abolish the law which prohibits polygamy? The answer to that is twofold:
1- If you will give this right to men, then women will ask for the same. After all, law does proclaim equality of sexes as well. The point that NYAhmadi raised first. And if you abolish the law that gives eqaulity of sexes then where are you gonna stop? You will keep doing it until you will end up chaotic state of a legislative structure and laws.
2- It is simply impossible to give freedom to practice every religious belief to all the religions in the States as it will cause deeper conflitcs and chaos.
So there has to be some limits to start off with for the stability of the society, and the majority is the one which will decide how that will be achieved. If next year majority decides that let's cut the hands off a thief, then that's how it will be.
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 06, 2000).]
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Originally posted by Roman:
*1- If you will give this right to men, then women will ask for the same. After all, law does proclaim equality of sexes as well. *
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Hmmm..good point, thanks, it really makes you think, its almost as if it is a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils. i.e. Either live in an area where that which is allowed in Islam is prohibited, or to push for the re-evaluation of those prohibitive laws so as to legalize/permit that which is already halaal in Islam. But if you pursue the latter, then, as Roman's point indicates, the latter 'push' for change/religious freedom in the issue of polygamy, could very well lead to the inevitable allowance of that which is prohibited in Islam, ie.polyandry.
Girl, so suppose that your husband comes to you one day and says that he thinks that you don't sexually satisfy him and so he wants to marry this other XYZ girl who satisfies him totally. Now you can say that you satisfy him compeltely but thats not the point. Point is he feels not satisfied. Would you allow him to bring this xyz women as wife to the house? Please answer.
AXE-Kuse me??!!
Aap ka dost kisi film, ya dramay kee scenes enact karnay ki koshish meiN thaa keya??!!
Or did he think he was at Toys R Us and ghalti meiN assumed, the Women were Play Things, with Lifeless Hearts and no Real Lives??!!
"now he's in a real tight spot,"
I suggest he be put in a tight-er spot....
Yaani, put a AK-47 to his Selfish, Ruthless, Dispassionate, Indecisive, Idiotic skull and place him within the Confines of a Kabr...
Okay, there's one ans. to Hayaa's question, "log kiyoon martay haiN?"
ya KOUN hay jess nay POLYGAMY ka topic shuru ker kay sub ko laRwana shuru ker deya hay!
jaysay kay shaytaan nay sirf sheray ke unglee lagiee thee!!!
Hey Guyz!
Listen, apart from religion, ONE is, I believe, more than enough.
She will spend all your credit cards
She will ruin all your savings
She will fight with you every day
She will be angry with you every single night
She will not listen to you even if you are right
She will fight with your mother/sisters everyday
She will force you to favour her in place of your mother
......
...
..
.
Murakh Pun say Kam na lay
Shadi Ka kabhee nam na lay
** Johny,
I had no idea you were talking behind my back and spreading rumors about my making the
breakfast only for myself. How uncanny! **
Aahh That was your back.....ooooookkk
No Roman you did not understand my point. Let me explain, You as a single Adami making your own breakfast, but atleast have options. But me who is not making his breakfast/lunch have no options. When I open my lunch box I have to eat what I find in it, if I get Chaaney Key daal for seven straight days, I have to eat it for seven staight days. If I get peanut butter/jelly Sandwich, I have to eat it or else......... You don't know what...
To find out what, you have to jump into the water and learn to swim.
Get wet.... You will love it.... Or may be not...
Yea Zenith…why not???thats exactly my point:)and i don’t think any muslim shud have a problem wid islamic law or sharia:)
Roman and Ahmadi saab ur points does make sense to me…just clear one more thing for me.
The point u made about equality of sexes and that women will ask for same rights…what women we r talking about here…???women in general or Muslim women???
Najoomi…it has been mentioned above that there are certain strings, certain restrictions attatched to this permisson…it is permitted to solve certain social problems that might not have any better solution than this…
now a muslimah who believes in, “Amantu Billaah wa kutubihi wa Rusulihi”, has no right to deprive a man from a right granted to him by Allah…:)but ofcourse there has to be a valid reason…
Johnny…chhoolooN ki daal for strt 7 days…oh man u have a valid reason…don’t torture urself like that
Naik bibi, these are very complex matters and there are no straight or simple answers. But what is very clear from the constitution is that “State shall not make laws based upon religion” – or the concept of separation of church and state. It does not mean that religion will have no place, in core, the constitution guarantees religious freedom under a broader umbrella of “freedom of expression”. It is however debatable how true that can be. But for the most part, it works. If there is a better system, I don’t know where it exists.
In Voodoo religion (which is recognized in the USA) human sacrifice (those of virgin girls to affray natural disasters) is a sacrament. Would USA allow that to happen on its soil? I doubt it. Does it not happen? I doubt it.
But to answer your question, well there are certain rules and regulations which go along with having more than one wife at a time (four to be precise). For a person practicing polygamy have to keep several things in mind. The most important of all, he should be fair and equal with all of his wifes. Financially, morally, ethically and in every which way possible. Now if you come to think of it. It's a bit hard to do. He could treat them equally in every way, but when it comes down to matters of the heart, there is always one which is more favorite than the others...And then one should stop and question themselves...does one want to put themself, in that situation. Secondly, eventhough Islam is a universal religion, back in the days when muslims were encouraged to have more than one wife, there were wars going on. Jihads and gazwas. And more and more muslimahs were becoming widows. More and more children were becoming orphans. Therefore, for the protection of women, and their children, polygamy was a common practice. Which is not the case nowadays, cuz there aren't many muslim men off to jihad. And therefore the situation is not as severe. Last but not least, polygamy is not a practice to be joked around with. It's not like if a person gets bored with one wife, they can go out and get another. It's a serious thing to be practiced in times of serious needs in order to avoid corruption in society.
Hey, guys we are not on the religion forum here!!! My reply was (a hurried answer) to the original question, shouldn't it be??? We were talking about the possibility of making legislation that makes polygamy legal, and I was saying why I didn't think that was possible, I wasn't attacking Islamic values!!