All Muslims should come together to the Ahlul Bayt (as). Their path is the Sirate Mustaqeem and their love is the wage of Risalat and is demanded by Allah (swt). The Prophet (saww) said "my Ahlul Bayt are like the arc of Noah (as), for whoever takes refuge in them, finds salvation".
No muslim can say that he does not follow the Ahlulbayt, but while u say ahlulbayt gave a new fiqah , others say that they did not and their teachings can be folowed by following the other fiqahs.
So 12ers have no monopoly over ahlulbayt
Fiqah e Jaffariya and its followers have not claimed it to be perfect nor they claim to have monopoly over everything that is good. Thats why we do not posses fatwa factories of kufr, neither we like to blow other Muslims up. Our school is the school that prides itself in belonging to the doorstep of the household of the Prophet (saww). You guys, with your own fiqhs, can continue to follow whoever you deem better.
In other words would muslims who follow other fiqahs find salvation of day of judgement according to 12ers ?
You call Jinnah a munafiq- I am guessing because of his secular values. .
difference between jinnah and jinnahism , kemal and kemalism
kemal and jinnah were not munafiqs they preached what they practiczed.
They were staunch believers in secular values , and lived according to them.I have respect for them but I dont agree at all with their ideologies.
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In my view, there is nothing wrong with the secular laws as long as they serve the people and are in consistent with the Islamic laws
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Thats exactly what abbassid and ummayyads and other dynasties after them did , there was a pretence of islamic govt but in reality laws were changed , bidahs introduced and leaders were above the law.
12ers for the most part of their history have adopted political quietism, and thus have adapted to living under tyrants very well.Except recently when imam khoemeni's activisim emerged ( which was meet with a lot of harsh criticism by 12ers themselves until it became successful)
Re: Plan to restore Pakistan- Reclaiming the founding moment
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I still say that any leader or movement must have the authority stemming out of the will of the people otherwise it is bound to fail and becomes one big joke. It is the people who need to change themselves first in order to bring about a real change.
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who support popular govts NOW but u dont support the popularity of abu bakr and umar with muslims of their time.
So the ummah now according to u can decide on something good , but back then it could not ...strange , I can believe that logic.
On the contrary now there is no room NOW for a democratic election of a good caliph, as we dont have muhajireen and ansar amongst us who can decide on a good caliph.
If sharia was so great why it has not been implemented anywhere in the world in its full form, phir to aaj tak baaqi sub ghass ki kat-tay rahay sadiyon say.
good question. One answer to your question could be found in this very thread where according to Das, Quran and Sunnat do not even provide a clear method of choosing a leader let alone provide solutions to the barrage of new challenges faced by the humanity today. Their solution- lets wipe out all the developments and advancements that have taken place in the last 14 centuries and go back to the desert-age where we did have seem to have some solutions because we seemed to have captured a lot of land back then, and now its only America thats good at it.
Pagluu I dont wish to start the debates on sayyidna umar's shura , eman of abu talib , and other favourites of debaters her.Its been discussed a gazillion times.I am very comfortable with my views on the 4 caliphs and the history surrounding that, I have also read/heard the 12er viewpoint of that in detail from scholars like SHM Jafri , Moderrassi to charlatans like talib jauhari.There is nothing new that you can tell me here that I have not already known or debated.
Coming more to things relevant to this topic
there is nothing to debate on these issues either. Why do I get that feeling that you think that my sole aim of this conversation is to 'convert' you? lol why do you feel so insecure? I have read your ulemas and your own writings too on the ShiaChat, but I am not going to go there either...
No muslim can say that he does not follow the Ahlulbayt, but while u say ahlulbayt gave a new fiqah , others say that they did not and their teachings can be folowed by following the other fiqahs.
So 12ers have no monopoly over ahlulbayt
Ahlul Bayt (as) gave no new fiqh. They gave Islam.
Insaan ko bedar tou ho lenay dou
Har qaom pukaray gi humaray hein Hussain (as)
Ahlul Bayt (as) are the perfect template to be followed for guidance. There has never been a group of people on earth that has ever dealt with the society, under the most difficult of the circumstances, and still brought equity and justice to the humanity. They belong to the whole humanity including Hindus, Christian, Jews.
In other words would muslims who follow other fiqahs find salvation of day of judgement according to 12ers ?
Allah (swt) knows the answer to this.
A per my belief, there are various ways to Allah (swt), each differing with others in ease, smoothness, perfection. The perfect and the "straight path" to Allah (swt) is the way of the Mohammad wa Aalay Mohammad (saww).
Ahlul Bayt (as) gave no new fiqh. They gave Islam.
Insaan ko bedar tou ho lenay dou
Har qaom pukaray gi humaray hein Hussain (as)
Ahlul Bayt (as) are the perfect template to be followed for guidance. There has never been a group of people on earth that has ever dealt with the society, under the most difficult of the circumstances, and still brought equity and justice to the humanity. They belong to the whole humanity including Hindus, Christian, Jews.
^In terms of equality and justice Imam Ali ra did not bring anything different than what existed at time of Umer ra. Let me know if there was anything.
difference between jinnah and jinnahism , kemal and kemalism
kemal and jinnah were not munafiqs they preached what they practiczed.
They were staunch believers in secular values , and lived according to them.I have respect for them but I dont agree at all with their ideologies.
Thats exactly what abbassid and ummayyads and other dynasties after them did , there was a pretence of islamic govt but in reality laws were changed , bidahs introduced and leaders were above the law.
12ers for the most part of their history have adopted political quietism, and thus have adapted to living under tyrants very well.Except recently when imam khoemeni's activisim emerged ( which was meet with a lot of harsh criticism by 12ers themselves until it became successful)
Its the peoples fault. Some modernists only highlight the Jinnah that lived in the West, spoke English and worse suits. Sadly, thats not what he was all about and its grave unjustice to his personality.
There were bidahs introduced and laws changed in the early caliphate too. Muawiya got a free hand to build his empire in the time of Umar.
The criticism on Imam Khomeini was never for him raising the voice against the tyrant. You are wrong once again there.
who support popular govts NOW but u dont support the popularity of abu bakr and umar with muslims of their time.
So the ummah now according to u can decide on something good , but back then it could not ...strange , I can believe that logic.
On the contrary now there is no room NOW for a democratic election of a good caliph, as we dont have muhajireen and ansar amongst us who can decide on a good caliph.
In the apparent presence of a divinely chosen leader, a people elected leader is called a Taghoot. In the absence, its only the people who could choose people to represent them in their day-to-day affairs.
So whats your alternative of choosing a calipha in todays world?
^In terms of equality and justice Imam Ali ra did not bring anything different than what existed at time of Umer ra. Let me know if there was anything.
[10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?
Its the peoples fault. Some modernists obly highlight the Jinnah that lived in the West, spoke English and worse suits. Sadly, thats not what he was all about and its grave unjustice to his personality.
There were bidahs introduced and laws changed in the early caliphate too. Muawiya got a free hand to build his empire in the time of Umar.
The criticism on Imam Khomeini was never for raising the voice against the tyrant. You are wrong once again.
I must clarify latter part of uthman's rule is an exception to this
muawiyah built empire during umar's time ! lol u are ignorant of the basics of islamic history. So ali is guilty of favoring ziyad and shimar then !
ever heard of the great plague and threat of himyaris to quraish ?
khomenini was criticized for using political means to gain power by other shia schlolars dont twist my words
jinnah supported seperation of religion from state thats enough reason not to follow him
A per my belief, there are various ways to Allah (swt), each differing with others in ease, smoothness, perfection. The perfect and the "straight path" to Allah (swt) is the way of the Mohammad wa Aalay Mohammad (saww).
Well others claim they follow ahlulbayt too how do know YOUR way is the right way
there is nothing to debate on these issues either. Why do I get that feeling that you think that my sole aim of this conversation is to 'convert' you? lol why do you feel so insecure? I have read your ulemas and your own writings too on the ShiaChat, but I am not going to go there either...
i am not insecure about my knowledge of these events.Nor do I pander to any sectarian agenda.
but i am not amused when u bring in "new arguments" to bloster your case and jump from topic to topic and dont answer my questions directly.The tone of your argument seems like you are trying to dazzle me with facts which will shock me ! its amusing and annoying at the same time.
And I have seen many of u 12ers trying to convert people to "path of ahlulbayt" by using a combination of half-truths and events which have nothing to do with formulation of later 12er sect.
In the apparent presence of a divinely chosen leader, a people elected leader is called a Taghoot. In the absence, its only the people who could choose people to represent them in their day-to-day affairs.
So whats your alternative of choosing a calipha in todays world?
Thats the whole point most people dont accept that there is a divinely choosen leader after Prophet.
my alternative is that overthrow those leaders who dont follow sharia and take power by force if neccesary thats the way muslims removed ibn affan.
muawiyah built empire during umar's time ! lol u are ignorant of the basics of islamic history
ever heard of the great plague and threat of himyaris to quraish ?
khomenini was criticized for using political means to gain power by other shia schlolars dont twist my words
jinnah supported seperation of religion from state thats enough reason not to follow him
Muawiya lived like a king in Umars time and Umar showed great favours to him.
About Syed Khomeini- the debate was not his activism against Shah but whether the scholars are to play any role in day to day affairs or not. I have not twisted your words. Re-read.
After all the mess that has been created on the name of religion, I'll say good on him. Muslims of the SE Asia backed his dream and chose him as their leader.
Ahlul Bayt (as) gave no new fiqh. They gave Islam.
Insaan ko bedar tou ho lenay dou
Har qaom pukaray gi humaray hein Hussain (as)
Ahlul Bayt (as) are the perfect template to be followed for guidance. There has never been a group of people on earth that has ever dealt with the society, under the most difficult of the circumstances, and still brought equity and justice to the humanity. They belong to the whole humanity including Hindus, Christian, Jews.
so why do u call yourself followers of fiqah jafariya ?
so u can follow ahlulbayt even if u are hindu christian or jew ??