Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
.... But Sach has a valid point here, it it is privatized like other privatizations in the country, then there is no benefit in it!
Which organization actually proved to be performing worse after privatization?
It would actually be beneficial to the country in the long run even if PIA is given to someone for free.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Same is applicable to your kith and kins employed in PIA
Thankfully, none of them are. PIA would definitely be performing much better if there were.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Why should i pay for the salaries and losses of PIA? Why should i pay for drunk pilots? Late flights, worse services...don't we post videos and pics of PIA mismanagement everyday? Don't we curse and ask govt to not to pay billions to PIA to bail them out every year!!!
Now when govt is going to do what it should have done 10 years ago, we are criticizing govt??? Criticizing for what? For having intent to save tax payers money on PIA, the amount spent on covering PIA losses could have used to build two corporations...
PIA should be privatized....all the privatized Institutes of Pakistan are self sustained and no longer a liability on national treasury if not adding to it in form of taxes.
Anyone saying NS may gave it to his brother or sister... Then keep a close eye on it...don't let that happen...
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Privatized or not, PIA should go through massive restructuring and should get rid of excess employees.
Just to give you and idea about how badly PIA is over employed, Plane-To-Employee ratio of most of the top airlines around the world is b/w 200-300 employees per plane while PIA (as of early 2014 data) has 780 employees per plane. PIA employees take kamchoori to another level.
i think other airlines have outsourced many functions and that decrease their "direct-hired employees" per plane number low but 780/plane is still a high number.
on a separate topic....help me understand one thing. Lets talk about international routes. PIA earns its international revenue by selling tickets at a price which is totally comparable to all other international airlines. For example i will pay PIA $1200-$1400 from NYC to Lahore for a round-trip and i will pay the same amount if i take emirates, qatar or kuwait. if anything PIA can be expensive. So PIA sales/plane should be comparable to its competitors on a given route.
but PIA's employee expenses (salary+benefits etc) must be 1/3 of what European or middle eastern airlines have to pay to their employees. Out pilots, technicians, flight engineers, air stewards, support staff, ground staff has to be much much cheaper than the staff of american/European/middle eastern airlines
So even if we have 780 employees per plane, we should not be doing that bad financially vs other international airlines. no?
what it tells me that we must have a lot of other recurring annual expenses which are grossly mismanaged i.e. hotels in many expensive places which are highly underutilized, maintenance expenses related to old planes, not-so-attractive leasing terms, using planes for private reasons by politicians etc
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
More than the number of employees, it is the competence of existing employees that is under question. PIA is earning GROSS LOSS, meaning that the company cannot even cover its operating expenses through existing revenue stream. More than the expenses, it is lack of revenue from existing infrastructure that causes losses. Several profitable routs to middle east are now run by Etihad, Emirates or Saudi. Some routes to Far East and Europe have shut down completely. An airline which enjoyed virtual monopoly over several decades in domestic market now faces challenge from private carriers.
http://www.piac.com.pk/pia_about/profiles/2014/PIA-Annual-Report-2014-23052015.pdf
The employees are protesting against ANY kind of privatization, not protesting against opaque privatization. This clears any doubts about the confidence they have in their own abilities.
PIA has been treated as parking space for retired military men and active jiyalas. We can’t expect much from them even after several financial bail-outs from the government over the years.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Buying votes by selling jobs in government entities is PPP’s roti paani [starting with ZAB’s so-called ‘nationalization’]. How can they consider fixing what is not broken?
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
More than the number of employees, it is the competence of existing employees that is under question. PIA is earning GROSS LOSS, meaning that the company cannot even cover its operating expenses through existing revenue stream. More than the expenses, it is lack of revenue from existing infrastructure that causes losses. Several profitable routs to middle east are now run by Etihad, Emirates or Saudi. Some routes to Far East and Europe have shut down completely. An airline which enjoyed virtual monopoly over several decades in domestic market now faces challenge from private carriers.
that is the point i am making,. yes we need to get rid of all unnecessary staff but reduction in staff cost alone is not going to make PIA profitable. we need to take many other strategic initiatives as well as do deep operational restructuring. but every time we talk of PIA, i hear 780 people/plane number as if that is the biggest and the only issue.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Thankfully, none of them are. PIA would definitely be performing much better if there were.
No Paki lies here. You belong to super duper breed in Pakistan.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Which organization actually proved to be performing worse after privatization?
It would actually be beneficial to the country in the long run even if PIA is given to someone for free.
So sell these Pakistan's assets to chor uchakay who can run entities like Sultana Dakoo was running in British Raj.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
No Paki lies here. You belong to super duper breed in Pakistan.
I don't know about myself, but you exhibit your breed over here very well. Carry on.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Whether it's privatization or restructuring of PIA, some level of job loss is expected and so are the consequent protests. It is the most natural reaction to a massive change that will affect the lives of many whether we like or not. So if you call yourself 'democracy' or want to act like a 'wannabe democracy' then learn to tolerate such protests. It is a constitutional right of every Pakistani.
You cannot open fire at unarmed protesters with such impunity. From Model Town to Islamabad to Karachi - it is a same old story of state's ego getting hurt over some protest, and therefore resorting to police brutality. The PMLN ministers instead of showing remorse at the loss of life are gracing the TV screens with chest thumping bravado and uttering even bigger threats.
The rangers baton charging 50+ looking employees was such a shameful sight. Honestly, you don't have to do things like that. If tomorrow some doctors start protesting against sweeping Health Reforms (happening in KPK right now as well as in the UK), will you start shooting the doctors? So think about it.
Had such violence happened under Musharraf, everyone from international powers, to self exiled politicians to overseas Pakistanis would be calling for an overnight regime change. So why tolerate and glorify dictatorial suppression and brutality under a 'democracy'?
I really don't understand why things like privatization of PIA and CPEC aren't discussed in the parliament? What's a point of calling yourself 'democracy' if you can't be bothered to use the parliament to settle such important issues?
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
As with privatization of PIA - first of all we need bit of transparency whether the 'government' is selling the PIA or a family ruling the government is simply buying it for peanuts.
Yes PIA is making gross loss, but an effectively and professionally run PIA can still be a source of national revenue for your loan soaked, weak and troubled economy. PIA can indeed be 'fixed':
These things are easier said than done, and yes it takes humongous level of will and vision which Sharif brothers don't have, but just because a powerful family in Pakistan has their eyes on PIA owned Roosevelt Hotel of New York, the whole of PIA cannot be sold off for peanuts for short term gains.
Very rarely that I give examples of Gulf states, but look how Gulf states have made their national enterprise so competitive. The level of skills and experience required to run those organisation is so high. No wonder they hire a lot of foreigners to run their organisations.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Privatisation is one thing and I am all for it but killing protesters is quite another. Lets not mix the two together. There was no cause to use the force the way the govt. did and it it is not the first time they have done this. When 14 innocent people were gunned down in model town and the matter was eventually swept under the carpet and the nation and the parliament did nothing to find out what happened and who was responsible than further show of force was inevitable in other places by these goondas.
If they cry abut democracy let them behave like democrats. In any other country the CM would have resigned after 14 people were mercilessly mowed down but not in Pakistan. That is our tragedy. In UK nearly 90 people died at a football match in the 90's. The inquiries are still going on to find out the truth. That is accountability.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
i think other airlines have outsourced many functions and that decrease their "direct-hired employees" per plane number low but 780/plane is still a high number.
on a separate topic....help me understand one thing. Lets talk about international routes. PIA earns its international revenue by selling tickets at a price which is totally comparable to all other international airlines. For example i will pay PIA $1200-$1400 from NYC to Lahore for a round-trip and i will pay the same amount if i take emirates, qatar or kuwait. if anything PIA can be expensive. So PIA sales/plane should be comparable to its competitors on a given route.
but PIA's employee expenses (salary+benefits etc) must be 1/3 of what European or middle eastern airlines have to pay to their employees. Out pilots, technicians, flight engineers, air stewards, support staff, ground staff has to be much much cheaper than the staff of american/European/middle eastern airlines
So even if we have 780 employees per plane, we should not be doing that bad financially vs other international airlines. no?
what it tells me that we must have a lot of other recurring annual expenses which are grossly mismanaged i.e. hotels in many expensive places which are highly underutilized, maintenance expenses related to old planes, not-so-attractive leasing terms, using planes for private reasons by politicians etc
PIA has not gone down the drain overnight. It was a slow process and everyone including employees, management and governments have a equal responsibility in bringing it down.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
I think privatization in hands other than nawaz sharif's relatives would be helpful. If the company that buys PIA screws up, loss is on their hands, not on tax payer's money. Will enhance competition because PIA would be directly competing in the private market.
The company is grossly incompetent. I will tell you I have a relative who is an engineer in PIA. Head engineer - like running a high position at the Karachi airport.
And he's sitting in America 6 months out of 12 and collecting salary.
There's no excuse for it.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
In late 90s there was a very similar story of what we are facing now. It was United bank limited (UBL). PPP's favourite Aziz memon was running the union like a mafia gang and being associated with a financial association was also a part of many scams and frauds. But toally overlooked by all govts until the second govt of NS put him on trial and privatized UBL. It took a total turn around and notorious Aziz Memon ended up in jail with his wife.
Its absolute nobrainer that privatization of PIA will only help. You cannot go any point beyond where you are right now.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
We can go around it a certain way like how PR privatized its functions like ticket management instead of the whole thing. Corrupt folks will huff and puff, but it isn't like zardari or nawaz or BBZ bail out PIA, it is the salaried folks who actually pay taxes at source and also gas and fuel surcharges. Even imran doesn't want to tax the rich landed folks or as he says "maasoom kisaan". I think tv anchor talat hussain did a program where he paid more taxes than majority of pakistani parliament.
And as far as PPP and corruption goes, it is a no-brainer. The moment nationalization and quota system happened was the start of massive govt corruption in Pakistan.
Also as far as banks go, I remember that Pakistan's govt owned bank recently almost lost its license in America because of iranian money laundering activities. This is just so much evidence that military or political parties abuse the privilege.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
I don't know about myself, but you exhibit your breed over here very well. Carry on.
That is the sadest part for Pakis. You don't know yourself but you are competent to judge others. Get a life man. Being a nya nawela moderator keep discussions on topic. Just bringing PPP in every topic will not solve the problems of PIA. Behave like a moderator with balanced views not like a patwari of N$.
Killing of employees can never be condoned. A murder charge on PM, and his sh!ty Ch. Nisar is justified here.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
:k: Well said.
Re: PIA flight operations across country wind down as employees killed in Karachi cla
Ganjas at it again
and shame on people who are defending this act