What does Islam say regarding men beating their wives, in any and all circumstances or situations? How about sin incurred by the woman when she does not obey her husband?
Please quote from the Quran and hadiths.
You’re my girl
And that’s all right
If you sting me
I won’t mind
Sarah,
The best person who knew Quran & followed it is the beloved Holy prophet (saw)! And he never raised his hand against his wife, daughters or any other female for that matter, in his whole entire life! So, in my humble opinion there is no justification for abusing one’s wife!
Well, I am sure there are a few people who twist & turn some ahadiths & verses of Quran to give them this right and indeed they are cruel in their intentions!
ahmadjee, I have read that a man is allowed to beat his wife. He is allowed to beat her only lightly, but it is still beating and it is still physical abuse. I want to know whether this is true or not and if there are other things the Quran and hadiths say about the matter. Following is the quote from Surat Nisa where I got the physical abuse part from:
[quote]
Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) BEAT THEM (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) - Surat Nisa, 34th ayat
[/quote]
Are women allowed to beat and admonish as well? How is illconduct defined?
I am also talking about more than just physical abuse. I am pasting a quote from the prophet here that was posted in another thread in another forum. Is this hadith fabricated or has it been misinterpreted or incorrectly translated? It was not contested when it was posted.
[quote]
From Hazrat Mohammad (P.B.U.H) a quote:
"If a wife doesnt come to bed when her husband is ordering to do so, she will get the 'Laanat' from Malaika's all night"..
[/quote]
You're my girl
And that's all right
If you sting me
I won't mind
- Deftones
[This message has been edited by Sarah Splendor (edited March 01, 2002).]
Sarah
That is what the Koran says, therefore beating lightly must be allowed. You cannot twist the words of the Koran to fit popular opinion
ok.... two Friday posts.. but.. this topic did need an explanation.
Here's the verse in question..
Yusufali
[an-Nisa' 4:34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, And (last) beat them (lightly) (va adriboohunna); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) fala tabghu alayhinna: For God is Most High, great (above you all).
PakistaniAbroad: For ages, men have abused this verse without pondering over Allah's message of going the extra mile in kindness towards women.
adriboohunna has it's root from daraba
daraba has often been used, in fact most frequently been used when describing Moses striking the ground with his stick.
BUT, that's not the ONLY meaning!
Let's explore other possible meanings of this word as used in the Qur'an.
daraba has been used in 14:24, 16:75, 16:76, and other places to mean set forth as in:
Yusufali
[Ibrahim 14:24] Seest thou not how God sets forth (daraba) a parable? .....
PakistaniAbroad: SO the word can also be used in the form of set forth or put forth
daraban, another form, has been used in (2:273) and it's use is just as interesting:
Yusufali
al-Baqarah 2:273 for those in need, who, in God's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land (daraban fil arze)......
PakistaniAbroad: Now we understand that daraba can have different meanings. Here it's used in the sense of 'moving' or 'departing' or 'set forth'.
Also used in another form:
Pickthall
[an-Nisa' 4:101] And when ye go forth (darabtum) in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you
PakistaniAbroad: It should be clear to the reader by now that daraba doesn't always translate into strike, beat, or smite.
It can also be set forth, move, migrate, depart.
fala tabghu alayhinna = so do not you opress/transgress on them
Let's use our knowledge of the possible meanings of the word daraba and revisit the relevant portion of the verse:
...As to those women on whose part ye fear ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, And **set forth/move/migrate/depart them; but if they return to obedience, do not oppress/transgress on them.
So Allah provides the males in the face of a quarrelsom/disobedient spouse the following recourse:
[list=1]
[li]admonish[/li][li]refuse to share bed[/li][li]set forth/depart/move/migrate them/from them[/li][li]but if they return to obedience, not to oppress or transgress on them[/li][/list=a]
One again, translations done in early days under the influence of concocted hadith accounts tried to tarnish the real message of the Qur'an but alhamdolillah, the Qur'an is it's own index, it's own dictionary and it's own tafseer.
Allah Knows Best.
There is No Spoon
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited March 01, 2002).]
.
Well SS as an ordinary man I do’nt think or believe that Islam would allow anyone whether man or women any sort of torture conductance, physical or emotional on each other!
You can’t be happy with each other though all the time, that does’nt warrant one’s to act like a child and start using lame Islamic excuses of torture allowance,
Perhaps Ibrahim may shed more light on this issue if he is around
http://www.jannah.org/sisters/end.html
In the event of a family dispute, the Qur’an exhorts the husband to
treat his wife kindly and not overlook her POSITIVE ASPECTS (see
Qur’an 4:19). If the problem relates to the wife’s behavior, her
husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this
measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem
continues, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful
manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases,
however, in which a wife persists in deliberate mistreatment and
expresses contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital
obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another
measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a
measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but
NEVER ON THE FACE, making it more of a symbolic measure then a
punitive one. Following is the related Qur’anic text:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women. because Allah has
given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support
them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly
obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have
them guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) do not share their beds,
(and last) beat (tap) them (lightly); but if they return to obedience,
seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High,
Great (above you all). (4:34)
Even here, that maximum measure is limited by the following:
a. It must be seen as A RARE EXCEPTION TO THE REPEATED EXHORTATION OF
MUTUAL RESPECT, KINDNESS AND GOOD TREATMENT, discussed earlier.
Based on the Qur’an and hadith this measure may be used in the cases
of lewdness on the part of the wife or extreme refraction and
rejection of the husband’s reasonable requests on a consistent basis
(nushuz). Even then, other measures, such as exhortation, should be
tried first.
b. As defined by hadith, it is NOT PERMISSIBLE TO STRIKE ANYONE’S
FACE, CAUSE ANY BODILY HARM OR EVEN BE HARSH. What the hadith
qualified as dharban ghayra mubarrih, or light striking, was
interpreted by early jurists as a (symbolic) use of miswak (a small
natural toothbrush)! They further qualified permissible “striking” as
that which leaves no mark on the body. It is interesting that this
latter fourteen-centuries-old qualifier is the criterion used in
contemporary American law to separate a light and harmless tap or
strike from “abuse” in the legal sense. This makes it clear that even
this extreme, last resort, and “lesser of the two evils” measure that
may save a marriage does not meet the definitions of “physical abuse,”
"family violence, " or “wife battering” in the 20th century law in
liberal democracies, where such extremes are so commonplace that they
are seen as national concerns.
c. The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness
of continued refraction DOES NOT IMPLY ITS DESIRABILITY. In several
ahadith, Prophet Muhammad (P) discouraged this measure. Among his
sayings are the following: “Do not beat the female servants of Allah;”
“Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands
(beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you;” and"[It is
not a shame that] one of you beats his wife like [an unscrupulous
person] beats a slave and maybe he sleeps with her at the end of the
day." (See Riyadh Al-Saliheen, op.cit,p.p. 137-140). In another
hadith the Prophet(P) said
…How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel
and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?.. (Sahih
Al-Bukhari,op.cit., vol.8.hadith 68,pp.42-43).
d. True following of the sunnah is to follow the example of the
Prophet Muhammad (P), who NEVER RESORTED TO THAT MEASURE, regardless
of the circumstances.
e. Islamic teachings are universal in nature. They respond to the
needs and circumstances of diverse times, cultures and circumstances.
Some measures may work in some cases and cultures or with certain
persons but may not be effective in others. by definition, a
“permissible” act is neither required, encouraged or forbidden. In
fact it may be BETTER TO SPELL OUT THE EXTENT of permissibility, such
as in the issue at hand, rather than leaving it unrestricted and
unqualified, or ignoring it all together. In the absence of strict
qualifiers, persons may interpret the matter in their own way, which
can lead to excesses and real abuse.
f. Any excess, cruelty, family violence, or abuse committed by any
“Muslim” can never be traced, honestly, to any revelatory text (Qur’an
or hadith). Such EXCESSES AND VIOLATIONS ARE TO BE BLAMED ON THE
PERSON(S) HIMSELF, as it shows that they are paying lip service to
Islamic teachings and injunctions and failing to follow the true
Sunnah of the Prophet (P).
sarah u can easily see that this is not allowed in Islam....
enuff verses of the Quan and Hadith have been posted already....
so what is it that u find diffciult????
accepting that Islam does not allow such "abuse"....
or that no matter how hard u try u cant find flaws in The Religion....
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
You yourself concede to this point when you say beating is "not the ONLY meaning!" of daraba. The fact that there are multiple meanings to the word make me doubt that the meaning you give is in fact the right one, especially since a meaning other than the one you give has been used by scholars for such a long time.
[/quote]
Sarah,
Even if the whole town sees a glass half empty, it doesn't cease to be half full. We can argue that since there is room for interpretation of the word there can be 'alternate' or at times 'wrong' interpretations, but to assert that since a majority of people follow the 'wrong' translation hence it must be 'true' is absolutely against Allah's instructions.
Here's what the Qur'an has to say on matters of interpretation of Allah's verses.
Al-Zumar 39:18] Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom God has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
PakistaniAbroad: It's abundantly clear to me that my responsibility when reading and interpreting the Qur'an is to find the 'best' meaning. In the scenario under discussion, I find it closer to the Qur'anic spirit to interpret daraba as depart or move.
If it's any reassurance to you, the number of times daraba in it's many forms is used as set forth or move is greater than the number of times it's been used as strike or hit
Just because translators regurgitate what was written many years ago in male dominated socieites without actually pondering on Allah's verses is no reason for me to blindly follow without using my own intellect and knowledge. Remember 'scholars' are human beings. They make mistakes too.
[quote]
Even if Allah meant daraba to be used as to set forth or to put forth, that still doesn't remove the fact that Islam gives men power over their wives and the wives must obey their husbands otherwise the men "will refuse to share their bed" and "will move away from them" - emotional blackmail.
[/quote]
Let's see what Allah instructs us as a society to do if we see a marriage going south.
The very next verse to the verse under discussion:
[an-Nisa' 4:35] And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware
PakistaniAbroad: I see Allah is giving equal rights to both to decide their fate.
[an-Nisa' 4:128] And if a woman fears ill usage or desertion on the part of her husband, there is no blame on them, if they effect a reconciliation between them, and reconciliation is better, and avarice has been made to be present in the (people's) minds; and if you do good (to others) and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is aware of what you do.
[an-Nisa' 4:129] Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
[an-Nisa' 4:130] And if they separate, Allah will render them both free from want out of His ampleness, and Allah is Ample-giving, Wise.
PakistaniAbroad: Women are free to leave. The women is not to be FORCED to live under adverse conditions and Allah doesn't instruct men to have such an unhealthy union.
Does that help Sarah?
There is No Spoon
How to Punish and/or Beat the wife is a fine art just like doing the wadu/ablution is a fine art. Books have been wriiten on the subject matter:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_849000/849029.stm
excerpts from the article:
Under the heading Abuse, the author discusses whether a husband has the right to beat his wife. He recommends verbal correction followed by a period of sexual abstinence as the best punishment for a wife, but does not rule out a beating as long as it is kept within strict guidelines.
The imam writes that, to avoid serious damage, a husband should never hit his wife in a state of extreme or blind anger.
He should never hit sensitive parts of the body such as the face, head, breasts or stomach.
He should only hit the hands or feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body.
The husband’s aim, he said, should be to cause psychological suffering and not to humiliate or physically abuse his wife.
Awesome. Sarah it must be clear to you by now that beatings are OK.
Only difference where and how to beat
Hey Andhra should know where, how and the proper procedure of beatings, since he has a lot of experience in that category. Ain’t that right Andhra
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
-------Yaroo Ye He Dosti Hai!!-------
i do not know y born-again muslims r so apologetics in defending quran. The verse is very clear that beating is allowed. This verse has been interpreted for centuries by mainstream islam in a very clear way. Women's inferirotiy is established in islam as an emotional and immature creature. So treating her like a child is allowed.
Not much of a “Free Mind” .. are you??
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
There is No Spoon
.
[quote]
The same emotional blackmail that allows the man to refuse to share his bed with his wife and allows him to admonish her when she does not obey him.
[/quote]
sigh.. It's my fault.. I did not have the time then but now I realize I should have tackled the whole verse and not just the parts under discussion.
nushoozahunna has been used as the condition for which men are allowed to take the steps.
It's no surprise that translators who are eager to translate daraba as strike translate nushoozahunna as disobedience
Now how very interesting that the male form of the same word used in 4:128. is nushoozan and has been trasnlated as:
Pickthall
If a woman feareth ill treatment nushoozan
Yusufali
If a wife fears cruelty nushoozan
Shakir
And if a woman fears ill usage nushoozan
Khalifa
If a woman senses oppression nushoozan
PakistaniAbroad: Interesting isn't it.. that
nushoozan actually means ill treatment/oppression/cruelty/ill usage.
The translation of 4:34 with the correct meaning of nushoozahunna (female form) will be:
[4:3] And for those women on whose part ye fear ill treatment/ill usage/oppression/cruelty nushoozahunna.....
PakistaniAbroad: Now let' see the actions allowed..
[list=1]
[li]faizoohunna[/li][li]ahjuroohunna fil mazaje ee[/li][li]adriboohunna[/li][/list=a]
faizoohunna = so you (plural) preach to them (female) / so you advise them
*ahjuroohunna fil mazaje ee * = you desert them/leave them/distance them in places of lying down
idriboohunna you depart/you set forth/you move/you migrate
PakistaniAbroad:
So the possible recourse for a fear of ill treatment from women is:
[list=1]
[li]discussion[/li][li]no sexual intimacy[/li][li]separation[/li][/list=a]
Tell me Sarah, how would YOU like to have it??
[quote]
Considering the fact that women aren't even allowed to go out alone in Islam, that leaves little choice in course of action for the woman.
[/quote]
Where did you come up with that absurd statement??
[quote]
As for following the best meaning, all those Islamic scholars, the same ones we might revere in relation to other aspects of Islam, see daraba to mean "to beat." Knowing little of Islam, that much I'll tell you, I'm going to look to them when interpreting the Quran.
[/quote]
Therein lies the problem. I being a man, should be fine with these 'special perks' given to me.. but I still try and understand what Allah really meant by the words in the Qur'an.. cuz I wouldn't want my daughter to be subjected to such ill treatment and told that our religion sanctions it..
If I can make that effort, why can't women?? If only women, who are actually effected by such gross misinterpretations would stop taking everything shoved down their throat and actually get off their whining behinds to do some thinking and questioning and investigative work themself.
[quote]
You also have to remember that not all are devout believers. To a person who is looking at the Quran objectively, how would you convince him/her that daraba means "to set forth" and not "to beat," since that ayat about taking the best meaning will mean jack to them?
[/quote]
well then why would that person insist on taking the negative meaning?? I'm perplexed.. this person is posing themself to be 'objective' on one hand and on the other hand being rigid about interpreting in the negative sense when shown other proof from within the Qur'an that instructs specifically to research and adopt the good meaning of Allah's verses. I would surmise that this person is not 'objective' but just out on a mudslinging campaign.
[quote]
I'm not convinced that Allah means not "to beat" but "to set forth" etc when he said daraba since there is room for doubt and both "to set forth" and "to beat" go back to daraba. Look at it objectively, without the Islamic viewpoint, the word can as easily mean "to beat."
[/quote]
HUH?? you cannot look at words out of context or outside the Qur'anic interpretation or meaning. It's a Book without contradictions. You can't just choose one meaning because you like it.. you have to reconcile it with the whole message. The message regarding women for men is to show them kindness more than they show kindness to men. Beating them is hardly being consistent with the message.
[quote]
No doubt about it, scholars are human beings, but such a huge error perpetuated over such an enormous amount of time? Wasn't it Allah who said he'd protect the Quran from reinterpretation or something of that sort?
[/quote]
Once again, please don't post what you have no knowledge of. Allah promised to protect his words.. not some morons from abusing them to justify their oppression of the opposite sex.
[quote]
Women are free to leave my ass. Islam doesn't allow women to live alone or go out alone or something like that right?
[/quote]
Where do you get your 'Islam' from anyway?? some cavemen??
[quote]
It actually ceased to be funny when my Quran teacher told my I couldn't touch the Quran because I was menstruating. Really, it's fun being called "napaq." But I digress, this thread is not about that.
[/quote]
Your Qur'an teacher is a moron. Tell him to show you where it's written that menstruating women can't pray or touch the Qur'an.. of course he'd refer you to Bukhari and Muslim Inc.
[quote]
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women - Surat Nisa, 34th ayat. Women can do little in face of this huh.
No, can't say it helped much PA.
[/quote]
Ok.. let's explain that to you too.. and yes I apologize for not doing it earlier.
The word used is qavvamoona = taking care of matters / strong to take care of matters of livelihood / guardians
It's consistent with the model that Allah laid down. NOWHERE did Allah say that women are to be CONFINED to their houses and MUST be DEPENDENT on men.
[quote]
And how exactly is a tap defined? Could Allah reincarnate Mohammed so that I could get a demonstration?
[/quote]
The Prophet NEVER hit anyone of his wives, so i'm sure he'd be of little help explaining the twisted logic of trying to explain a misinterpretation of verses in the first place.
Beating women is WRONG. There can be no argument 'explaining' the why's and where's and how-to's.
[quote]
And like I keep going on and on and on and on about, is the woman allowed to beat (tap, sorry!) her husband? PakistaniAbroad, you espoucer of Islam and it's supposed equality and inherent goodness, answer me.
[/quote]
Since my argument is that men are NOT allowed to lay their hands on women, a discussion with a reversal of roles is unnecessary.
There is No Spoon
PakistaniAbroad:
How do u know prophet did not lay hands on his wives? Was every domestic/personal details made available to the outside world? Is not the Quranic verse enough?
You r re-interpreting quranic verse which has been and is interpreted by main stream islam in 'beating is allowed' way.
women r not allowed to go to hajj without relative. They r not allohwed to have 50-50% part in heritage. What is female sex slave ('londi')? What does that indicate about her social position in society?
Point to other translations of this verse where different meaning has been given. madscietist, what does ur favourite molana moudodi say?
Do not try to make islam what it is not. if u do not want to belive in islam because of ill treament of women, leave it. why distort it?
[This message has been edited by FreeMind (edited March 03, 2002).]
About yusuf ali’s tranlsation, i found this:
http://www.thefourwheelers.com/Main/Recommendations/books/quran.htm
Accuracy
Author Robert Morey, a critic of Islam, claims that Yusuf Ali (the translator and author of the commentary) is first an apologist of Islam, and second a translator (1). Morey claims that Yusuf Ali made intentional changes to the translation in order to make it more palatable to the modern reader. For example:
Surah 4:34 – … As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) spank them (lightly); …
Yusuf Ali’s commentary for this verse states:
(3) if this is not sufficient, some slight physical correction may be administered; but Imam Shafi’i considers this inadvisable, though permissible, and all authorities are unanimous in deprecating any sort of cruelty, even of the nagging kind…
However, older translations render “spank lightly” in an entirely different fashion (2).
… Those you fear may be rebellious - admonish; banish them to their couches and beat them.
“Beat them” is certainly stronger than “spank lightly”. Yet Morey writes that the word is even stronger than “beat them”; it is more appropriately “scourge them”. This same word is used to describe scourging of camels and criminals. Mohammed Pickthal, a Muslim Englishman, used “scourge” in his translation.
The difference is striking. Did Yusuf Ali make an intentional change to the translation, or is “spank lightly” a legitimate translation? I don’t know. It’s wise to consider this possibility, however.
(What is the Christian teaching regarding a husband’s treatment of his wife? See Ephesians 5:22 and following, and 1 Peter 3:17 for examples.)
The bottom line? As the reported most common English translation of the Qur’an, this version will be the one used by many English-speaking Muslims. The text and the commentary help me understand the teaching and background of Islam.
here is another lin which discusses different translations of the same verse:
http://thespiritofislam.com/text/Q03.html
go down the bottom and u will see that.