Philosophy of hedonism

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

What's there to debate.even the cursoary glance of desciption of heaven and promise of so frwoned upon worldy pleasures there tells me it'smatter of faith.

hedonist do not buy hell/heaven theory and hence are making merry here and now while they can.

Beleivers otoh have this belilef that austerity here promises all kinds of pleasure for eternity in heaven and in their book thsi is betetr bargain..

Point being hedonist they all are . Pursuit of pleasure is at the bottom of all this some want it now some want it later

42

Yes. That is what I said.

Except that what you wrote in red may not be true. You are describing 'munkireen' or non-believers on hell/heaven. One does not have to deny hell/heaven to live a life full of pleasure.

P.S. Please use spell check for continuity of thoughts of the reader..

The whole business of creating human and the heaven 'the first and last prospective residence of human', alluring/coercing or trying to make human to do good deeds is based on pleasure.

The fruits, the lakes of milk, the women untouched, the sharab-e-tahoora, what are those created for? Pleasure.

We can see if human do good deeds they get pleasure from not only to do the good acts but if majority do the same good deeds, everyone enjoys the pleasure one way or other.

Like I said before, pleasure is the reason we all do what we do. Both Creator and Creation.

Creator is beyond his limit and beyond judgment. Creation (Human) is with required control.

Timepass - October 2013
43

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

Do people love their mums because they feel good for loving their mums or do they just love them?

Do we always want something back in return?

Sorry there is a position amongst the pious who seek only the pleasure of God and do not even expect their reward.

44

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

To make ones goal the acquisition of pleasure or to seek pleasure is to make it ones Lord.
To make ones means pleasure for the acquisition of Love in God is using the ni'ma of this world and the hope of the Herefater wisely.

Islam is not Hedonism

45

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

^please call me...i haven't got your office number and you left your mobile at home today. i got to talk to the health visitor regarding baby's BCG appointment. I promised to call her in the morning. The red book is in your car, please check if the baby was given BCG or not.
thanks

(Sorry couldn't find any other way to convey this important message)

Sing a Song according 2 Ur Mood !!!!!
46

It will not be fair to critique your second reply ostracizing your first take on the matter under discussion; here is what you said earlier.

“I think yes.. Even the relligiously devout ones are doing all the religious chores in order to seek abode in pleasureful heaven. That's why I call religiously devot ones who seem to be ascetic in this word are the greatest hedonists”

Indeed a very superficial and cursory glance at your first statement seems appealing, to which I said “thought provoking”, yet a little effort of pondering into the real meanings reveals its emptiness.

If you analyze your statement, peeling just one layer of its philosophical ambiguity, you will realize the existence of grave anomaly inherent in your statement.

My friend, convictions are never based on assumptions, your conviction that religiously devout people are greatest hedonist is based on you assumption that all their actions are just to seek a “pleasure full heaven”, without paying any attention to an ocean of differences in the intentions of two school of thoughts.

I could not fully understand the first few lines of your second reply, however on the impression of what I understood, I would say that any religion and particularly Islam does not bar you from living a gratified life, it does not stop you from striving for a better life, from enjoying the blessings bestowed upon us and from revealing possibilities created for all human beings but the object of our struggle should not be “pleasure” alone, and that is the main difference between a hedonist and faithful. If seeking pleasure alone is the ideology of life then existence of a barrier of ethics is inconceivable, impractical and inconsistence with the ideology itself. Accomplishment of our desires should not be on the grave of a poor man’s wishes, pleasure in its actual meanings conflicts with the extraction of a gratified life.

I am unable to understand how anyone can be a true believer or true faithful without striving for a life of a “Muta’qee”, and what is “Taqwa”, is it not a code of moral conduct? The promise of reward is neither root of faith nor it should be, the root of the faith is “LA Ilaha Ilallah”, then a contract of adherence. The reward of Jannah for a true faithful is never a sole and only object of contract, with that said anyone who considers Jannah a better bargain is neither a true believer nor he can stay as MutaQuee for long.

Gratification in gratitude is purpose of worldly life for a believer which is way different than the ideology of hedonism.

47

Diawana Bhai, have you ever heard of cascading effect? I believe you are a medical doctor, what if your diagnosis about a patient is wrong, do you believe that medication on the basis of wrong diagnosis will be effective for the disease? In computer application development a cascading effect refers to the input of incorrect information, no matter how correct is the process of application development if it accepts incorrect data, it will correctly process it to present wrong output.

Just like that we human being furnish our arguments based on our convictions, these convictions can be factual to place arguments that are not only logical in appearance but factual in entirety and at the same time we can have convictions based on wrong perceptions, incorrect information or acquired bias, in that case our arguments, no matter how appealing they may sound, will not be factual.

I understand your point of view completely, but I find one little problem in root of your conviction, all that you have said stems out from a belief that Allah Created this world and intelligent life like us only to “Please” Allah, meaning a purposeless creation otherwise but pleasure for the creator.

Objectively if you look at the teachings of Islam, what do you find there? How much have we been obligated to worship Allah. Does Islam not present an ideal social contract for human beings; is it not more about “Haqooqul-Ibad” than “Haqooq-Allah”, why Allah is pleased with me when I try to take care of my old parents, or my poor neighbor?

The fruits, lakes of honey and milk, hoor, and Sharab-e-Tahoora are only examples that we can understand. (Even water can be sharab-e-tahoora, any thing which is clean and drinkable, it doesn’t necessarily mean wine). Jannah is not pleasure but a prospect to a successful completion of my contract, not all the human beings can have same strength of faith, just like not all the employees of a company are equally zealous about fulfilling duties, some may do it with maximum sense of responsibility without having an eye on the promotion, some may do hard work to get the bonus and promotion.

Some of us may stick to moral conduct for Jannah, some may stick to it out of sheer responsibility, and some fortunate may do it because of love with the creator, height of spiritual life.

48

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

Peace IntelliPhant

In total agreement ... Also I have seen people go astray on the premise that Islam has brought them only hardship whereas they felt they aught to receive bounties in this world and the Hereafter on account of their obdient behaviour .... yet on closer scrutiny in Islam the devout Muslims are tested even more for their patience.

Surely to truly submit oneself i.e. be a Muslim one cannot be a hedonist ... because the premise for hedonism is 'do it for pleasure' not 'do it for Allah (SWT)'. If we happen to get pleasure it is not through any contract, rather it is just more of His Mercy. No one enters Jannah except from the Mercy of Allah (SWT) ... nothing we do can earn us that.

Goongi Shehzadi
49

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

Peace Psyah and Intelliphant!

I have written before many thoughts and feel as if I have been misunderstood all along or not understood at all. I have only myself to blame here.

Pleasure or happiness is not bad. it has to be gained under the said circumstances.

islam should not be looked upon as if it promoted sadness, depression, worthlessness of self being.

We have seen the result of this philosophy of considering world as a prison and only a temporary residence too far. I mean yes world is temporary but its importance must not be reduced since it is still made for human being to live on and enjoy.

Yes enjoy with the condition of worshiping the Lord.

At one time muslims were really true muslims and were not only believing on Allah but also were actively engaging themselves with worldly affair just to make themselves more knowledgeable but also to make lives of themselves and others better in this world.

Now muslims overall (not all of them) have become lazy and have abandoned the world and struggle to make it a good place.

I don't have to to go in to that detail since its well understood by all of us what they used to do and what they brought to this world including good art, culture, scientific/medical knowledge and many inventions.

The world is for us. And the heaven can be for us as well.

Being happy is not a sin.

Brother Psyah! Off course when one does a good deed including loving his parents, it brings and should bring happiness and satisfaction. What else one expect? Sorrow when someone loves his/her parents and any other relative, human being?????

One quality of momin is to feel good when he/she does a good deed and be sad when he/she does a bad deed. (A hadith)

There are numerous verses in Quran about pleasure of Allah or him being pleased as well as pious people to be pleased.

Allah promised heaven to pious individuals.
**
What's wrong in expecting pleasure in this life and hereafter when Allah himself is willing to give?**

Here are some verses:

[92.5] Then as for him who gives away and guards (against evil),

[92.6] And accepts the best,

[92.7] We will facilitate for him the easy end.

[92.19] And no one has with him any boon for which he should be rewarded,

[92.20] Except the seeking of the pleasure of his Lord, the Most High.

[92.21] And he shall soon be well-pleased.

[4.162] But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to. you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward.

[5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and asslst them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into **gardens beneath which rivers flow, **but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.

[19.54] And mention Ismail in the Book; surely he was truthful in (his) promise, and he was an apostle, a prophet. [19.55] And he enjoined on his family prayer and almsgiving, and was one in whom his Lord was well pleased.

[7:31]O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time **and place of prayer: **eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters.

[7:32]Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of Allah, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance?
**Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. **Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.

Also In other words:

[7:32]"Say : Who has prohibited Allah's adornment which He has brought forth for His servants, **and [similarly] the wholesome things of sustenance? Say : **They are for those who believe in this world, and exclusively [for them] on the Day of Resurrection."

[7.156] And ordain for us good in this world's life and in the hereafter, for surely we turn to Thee. He said: (As for) My chastisement, I will afflict with it whom I please, and My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it (specially) for those who guard (against evil) and pay the poor-rate, and those who believe in Our communications.

[30.38] Then give to the near of kin his due, and to the needy and the wayfarer; this is best for those who desire Allah's pleasure, and these it is who are successful.

[30.39] And whatever you lay out as usury, so that it may increase in the property of men, it shall not increase with Allah; and whatever you give in charity, desiring Allah's pleasure-- it is these (persons) that shall get manifold.

5:119] Allah will say, “This is a day on which the truth of the truthful shall benefit

them. For them there are *gardens beneath which rivers flow, where they will live forever. *

Allah is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him. That is the great achievement.

[9:20]Those who believed and emigrated and carried out Jihad in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives are greater in rank in the sight of Allah, and it is they who are the successful.[9:21] Their Lord gives them the happy news of Mercy from Him, and of (His) Pleasure, and of Gardens having an everlasting bliss for them,

[2:29]*"[Allah]is Who has created for you all that is in the earth." *

[16;97]Whoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, *We will make him live a good life, and We will award them their reward for the best of what they used to do. *

[56:7] You will be stratified into three kinds.

[56:8] Those who deserved bliss will be in bliss.

[56:9] Those who deserved misery will be in misery.

[56:10] Then there is the elite of the elite.

[56:11] They are those who will be closest (to God).

[56:12] In the gardens of bliss.

[56:13] Many from the first generations.

[56:14] Few from the later generations.

[56:15] On luxurious furnishings.

[56:16] Enjoying everything, they will be neighbors.

[56:17] Serving them will be immortal servants.
**
[56:18] With *cups, pitchers and pure drinks.
*
[56:19] They never run out, *nor do they get bored.
*
[56:20] *Fruits of their choice.
*
[56:21] *Meat of birds that they desire.
*
[56:22] **Beautiful mates.

[56:23] Like protected pearls.
**
[56:24] **Rewards for their works.

[56:25] They never hear any nonsense therein, nor sinful utterances.

[56:26] Only the utterance: "Peace, peace."

[56:27] Those of the right side, will be on the right side.

[56:28]** In lush orchards.**

[56:29] Fragrant fruits.
**
[56:30] **Extended shade.

[56:31] Abundant water.

[56:32] Many fruits.

[56:33] Never ending; never forbidden.

[56:34] Luxurious furnishings.

[56:35] We create for them mates.
**
[56:36] **Never previously touched.

[56:37] *Perfectly matched. *

( I have not posted many of verses or hadiths which describe heaven explicitly)

[Hadith] If you believe this hadith;
“Made beloved to me from your world are women and perfume, and the coolness of my eyes is in prayer.” (Ahmad and An-Nasa-i)

In this hadith, if you believe it off course, even the prophet did not shy of accepting that he liked women. He married ten times to women of All Ages.

If jannah is not a pleasure than what it is brother Intelliphant?

The contract is given by Allah to us, it is up to us if we take or not.

If we want to be un-thankful, then we can sure reject this.
I am not sure if I would reject it.

Eternal life will either be in hell for those who do not do good deeds or worship Allah but only other choice is heaven. Nothing else otherwise. So those who want to reject heaven or do notcare of heaven, what choice do they really have????

There is absolutely nothing wrong in expecting, hoping or wishing for pleasure here or even in eternal life. Allah himself is extending that offer for those who qualify.

Is there anything wrong in employees working hard for a bonus when the boss hmself is willing to and promising the bonus or promotion? Especially when Allah is the boss with unlimited resources?

What does this mean that items of heaven are for us to understand?
Is there any other meaning we should take from these items?
Is Allah just making false promises, nauzubillah?

Who says, Sharabe Tahoora may not be wine and it may be water?
I am not saying it will definitely be wine however. Only almighty can tell.

However, for 'thousands'..... of years Allah had no big problem with mankind drinking wine, even during the early days of Islam!

As we all know, rules of the world may not be applicable to inside heaven.

Will we have marriage in heaven with women who were never touched?

**Are we supposed to worship Allah in heaven?

**This question is very important.

I think we have made our lives difficult for no reason in buying in to too much of this sadistic philosophy of denying the allowable pleasure.

*Let me clarify once again:

*
I never said to just be happy, please yourself whatever way you want and forget Allah or his commands or make others unhappy.

I never said to get pleasure out of someone else's misery.

I never said that we should do acts in this world to make ourselves rich and not help poor.

I never said worldly items will surely give pleasure to mankind.

Money cannot buy everything. Even a soft bed cannot give a guaranteed deep, sound sleep.

But

It is absolutely fine, .... and almighty himself promotes, encourages and promises that doing the good deeds will make the person enter in to eternal life of pleasure. The life we are not discouraged to seek.

Why this same promise was not given to those creation who cannot even taste the pleasure?

**
**Pleasing Allah by doing good deeds and acknowledging his supremacy over all of the universe is the duty assigned to mankind.

He wants us to please him, and he promises that we will be happy (and hence we should not be sad) in this life or hereafter.

Sadness is for those who like to be sad and happiness for those who are willing to be happy.

I am sorry if I have missed some of your points.

50

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

Peace respected bro diwana

I don't think we've (IntelliPhant and I ) been further misunderstood than by what you have presented above.
Most of what you have given is what has been made permissible for us ... in my view to make that what is permissible in to something as though it is 'required' to be sought as a life's purpose is critically different from taking from the permissible but indulging only on the true life's purpose.

It is not the taking or using of worldly things and gaining pleasure as a result of an action that I am saying is wrong rather it is the act of making the using of worldly things the vehicle TO GAIN pleasure which is deficient.

1) Pleasure should not be a goal in life rather it should be a convenient side-effect of good action.
2) We should not trust the world to deliver pleasure even though Allah (SWT) has given us the world where pleasure can be obtained. Rather we must trust Allah (SWT) to be sufficient for us.

You said:

[quote]

Brother Psyah! Off course when one does a good deed including loving his parents, it brings and should bring happiness and satisfaction. What else one expect? Sorrow when someone loves his/her parents and any other relative, human being?????

[/quote]

Think of a situation when one's father humiliates his son, instead the son does something good for his father but it goes unacknowledged. This cycle goes on and on ... After some time if the son had been a pleasure seeker he would cease being good to his father ... if however the son had been 'submitting' then he would continue doing good regardless of the delay in pleasure.

There is always going to be some sort of satisfaction in making the right choice, but often the right choice comes at the price of sacrificing the pleasure of the ego.

Consider that I would really love to go around giving people frights by shouting suddenly, however, even though I would be enjoying it my soul would not be fulfilled by that condition and it would wreak upon me the havoc of emptiness. This I would be sealed away from from recognising because laughing has sealed away my heart.

There are references for this world being a prison for the believer. Of course the best prisoner is the one who 'likes' to be there because he views his correction time a means to protect others ... it is a selfless pleasure in a faculty more of the consciousness than of the body ...

We receive stimulation through our senses, the higher level of stimulation is then through intelligence, then through intuition and then through divine guidance. As these increase our physical connection to them distances. It follows that a stimulating/a pleasure in the body from divine guidance is far more superior than simply a physical sensation.

Sensual pleasures are low and when they are placed with greater importance than higher level pleasures then this is what hedonism is. It is the sanctimonious worship of physical, basic and sensual pleasures which is not what Islam is about at all.

51

Peace again Psyah!

You talked about permissible. As if permissible should not be sought after?
if this is what you imply then why not?

Permissible is not haram.

I do not think I said that pleasure alone should be the goal. Pleasure with condition. Condition of acknowledging where it came from, and more importantly who brought it. One must be thankful to almighty of providing the sense of pleasure.

Now this is a stretch. Who made the world? For whom this world was made?

Why these items of pleasure were made?

You will say to test us. I will say yes to test us. But how? TO keep remembering Allah when enjoy these items and not forget him being indulged in pleasure.

But not reject pleasure altogether.

OK. this situation has a condition. The father is 'humiliating'. The son is loving.
If son loves his father and understands his father's weakness/shortcoming then this humiliation is nothing or negligible for him. It would still make him happy that he does something good for his father. Not necessarily pleasure seeking but obtaining pleasure from loving.

Yes. True.

You talked about ego. Let me talk about a different concept of ego.

Hint: Id, Ego, Super-ego concepts.

I am talking about not killing the ego, but suppressing the Id by super-ego, all this time.

What you have tried to discuss (in my humble opinion)is to kill both Id and Ego altogether.

I do not like Sigmund Freud but will discuss these items sometimes. :-)

Not a good example at all. I never said that. Never argued for it. Don't know where did I mention such a thing in this thread?????

Yes I know somewhere it is said. But this philosophy is not true.

Man is sent on earth with dignity not humiliation. As a Naaib/Khalifa. Also Man is supposed to go back to heaven if performs good.

World is for man to enjoy, and conquer and even though it is a transient stay but its not a prison. In prison one is locked up not to get out and is supposed to be miserable or unhappy or humiliated.

Don't know where did this come from. Senses are also God's gifts and his creations. Why would we lower them at all. Why should we deny them?

Ever heard of masochists? ( I am sure you did). They inflict sensual pain to get 'inner' pleasure!

Peace instead of Salam
52

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

There is a road and alongside are fruit trees only those fruits that fall on the road may be eaten but not those that are yet to fall. Walk along the path to get to your destination and feel free to enjoy those fallen fruits for your journey.

The condition of permissibility addresses the need not the purpose.
Angels need to worship Allah (SWT) as their sustenance
Humans have been given respite for a while on the Earth where we can choose to indulge in that what is permissible or not permissible or choose to excel towards what Allah (SWT) has not even made a need for us to do whilst on this Earth, but set it as our purpose. Worship ... Unlike angels we can live this life without ever worshipping, and we may take great pleasure in doing that.

Remember Shaitan makes us to haram, if he cannot do this he pushes us towards reprehensible things, if he cannot do this he lures to do neutral acts, if he cannot do that he will make us choose the lesser of two good deeds. To make the permissible things a goal in life when our true goals are something else is a trick - a trick played by the Shayateen of the world and the name of this trick is hedonism.

We should not confuse the fruit given to encourages us as the purpose for us. Our purpose can only be our destination.

By the way you say that Angels are like robots ... did you know that Angels too choose?

53

What if there are ripe fruits on tree but not fallen yet?

Would you not try to shake the tree or climb the tree?

Will that be a sin?

What I mean is struggling for something of needs is also Sawab!

Being happy is our God-gifted need.

Even though this looked a great statement but it has one flaw. the word need being considered as bad or at lower level than word purpose.

I have heard this kind of statements from religious people so many times and never could really understand why people try to make it this way.

What I have been proposing is having purpose and need at same equal importance can be possible. And need was not condemned or degraded even by almighty.

Example 1: It should be our need and purpose to love and care our children.

Both important equally.

Example 2: **Its saying like........ No no, I don't want to be happy since its only my **need. And 'need' what a bad thing to have. Disgusting! Why should a man have needs, he should just have the purpose!

Now that is defeating the Allah's wish. he wanted us to worship while keeping our needs and desires. Otherwise angels were enough. (I have said this above somewhere)

Example 3: **I would rather work at my job for late hours, clean the office day and night, even paint the walls in whatever free time I get, and serve my boss regardless what boss has told me to do. I just enjoy doing that. I love it when boss walks in the office clean and freshly painted everyday. Why should I leave office for even a few minutes, perhaps boss will be **angry **with me. Because I am sure my boss is really an **angry man inside. Only reason he keeps me around because he is **so mercifull **as well!!!!!! Isn't this a proof that I have a job that he is soooo kind?

Now, Boss never wants the worker to be a 'extra hard' worker. He wants his recognition, being thankful, following the office rules, keeping the sanity around, be regular, enjoy other good activities, obey the laws, making good relation with others etc. etc.

I am going to say something here a bit powerful below to ponder:

"It is just as bad and blasphemous as not recognizing Allah at all, as to consider Allah being without mercy and being full of vengeance by default. *Or Consider him as a 'needy person' to ask every creation to have just one goal: His worship....."
*
Now what these buzurg or pir or sufi create in the mind of people is as if Allah by default is full of anger and and only reason he will give us the heaven is due to his other quality as being gracious and kind.

Also, they are wrong to say that, unless we minimize our needs (or stop being human), Allah will place us in hellfire. They think only purpose for human is to just worship and that is the goal....

No. It is worshiping **with **keeping the needs and enjoying **both **at the same time.

No. They do not have needs. They either worship or just follow orders.

Again I never argued in favor of being 'indulged' that we forget Allah!

The meaning and level of excel has taken too far by some people to extreme which is not even the wish of Allah as far as my humble understanding.

Anything which makes you forget Allah's presence or worship can be considered bad but with enjoying what is provided one can still remember, being thanful Allah or worship. Yes it is possible unlike these 'sufis' say.

No sir. Like I said, both are important otherwise it defeats the purpose of being created in the first place. Yes the purpose of being created was to test us with keeping our needs as well.

Off course not be forgetful of Allah by being 'indulged' in our needs. I have said this over and over again throughout this thread.

I am open to your thoughts on it and gave you mine above. :-)

Timepass - October 2013
54

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

Peace diwana

Actually I have had enough of this conversation ... it appears to me that there is a bridge to cross between knowledge and your perspective on Sufis, one is preventing the other for that bridge to be crossed. Most of what I have said is general Islamic knowledge ... most of my exposure has been with the Athari/Salafi books, only because now I identify with the Sufis, to you everything I say is Sufi mombojumbo. (Ibn Kathir for example is not often quoted by Sufis)

I would like to say "get over it" but that would sound rude, but such an apt saying it would be don't you think?

Where does Tawbah rank with the hedonists? Surely 'guilt' is one thing that is not done for pleasure?

And if you take pleasure in this conversation then of course continue, but if you want me to continue you will have to first convince me that you are not doing it just for "kicks". There are just so many references that I can provide proving the contrary to what you have said above ... but I don't see the point anymore ... when people can argue and debate about such topics as though they are on a cereal packet or they are having a chat about a soap opera the caution here is that Islam is being reduced to popular banter rather than a sacred code for life. I am embarassed to continue talking on this with you.

55

Peace to you as well brother Psyah!

Sufi-ism:
You have not given anything contrary to my understanding of popular sufi-ism sir. If I was wrong, you had all opportunity to provide contrary evidence.

To me, Sufi-ism promotes Lazy-ism.

"You said knowledge and my perspective on Sufis has a bridge! "

That is not fair. In hidden way you are saying my perspective to Sufism and their beliefs has nothing to do with knowledge? This is a blow below the belt. That is fine if you feel like doing it. I can only blame, again myself, not to make my case.

Tawbah has nothing to do with hedonism. Why ask?

As far as guilt? Do you favor this???

Isn't this the the most important teaching of one of the sect of christianity-
the Catholics?

My dear brother, islam is not about guilt.

Its about the **middle ground **which I believe and have been discussing all through this thread.

Dignity of human:
Let me say it again: There is no such thing that we should feel depressed, low, humiliated, guilty about being human. People who feel like this need treatment.

There are more reasons to be happy, elated, proud, full of vigor as well as thankful to Almighty and worship *him for his wisdom and being merciful to all mankind, to provide things or items to enjoy in this world and hereafter.
*
Angels Versus human:
I have not even heard a single indisputable argument from you for angels and human comparison even though you mentioned again in the last post of yours.

I said I am open to your argument. You are still welcome to lay down that sir. Perhaps I will learn something there.

**
You think I am doing this for a kick:**

Hummmmm. Where did you get this idea from???

I am willing to hear your so many references. And will be glad to answer.

I do know, there are many many misconceptions **about islam **as being the religion which promotes depression, guilt, humiliation of being human being, not open to humanly needs, not open to people's thought process...all spread by few other human being trying to control masses.

It just has never been the attitude of islam to my humble understanding.

In the end, please stick to the rules of discussing.

Don't say you are embarrassed to even talk with me.

You can say you 'feel' embarrassed to talk with me. I will be fine with that.

Always a 'pleasure' to discuss with you. And this means, I do not feel embarrassed to talk with you.

Peace again.

TUM SE KUCH NAHI KEHNA
56

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

Peace diwana

Okay well may be I need to present a bit more.

True tassuwuf is about excelling the traits of goodness. It is about Ihsan and being a Muttaqi. It is about sacrificing ones own 'needs' for the needs of others. It is not about being lazy and removing oneself from worldy duties, rather it is about 'gaining the world' then 'giving it away', rather than consume it for oneself. Although it is perfectly permissible to do so if the world has come by halal means, purification of heart is to teach the nufs that Allah (SWT) is enough. If we get dunya and consume it the benefits end, but if get dunya and invest it in sadqa jariyya the benefits continue. Is this pleasure? I don't know but it is not laziness.

The performance of tawbah and feeling guilty (not permanently) but for the instance of where it is important to do so is very much part of Islam but not part of hedonism. Although Islam is a myriad of lots of things 'guilt' does feature in it. Read the story of Adam (AS) taking the blame is far more noble than giving the blame.

Shaitan blames Allah (SWT) for leading him astray, Adam (AS) although his wife convinces him and Iblis convinces her, he admits that he has wronged himself. This is 'guilt' and he (AS) sought forgiveness.

Then you speak to me about indisputable arguments ... This is not my concern ... Given enough of a motive every concept in a belief can be either defended or refuted ... Our task is not to debate whether I can defend my concept and you yours, rather it is to submit to what is authentic and backed up by the 'ijama of true scholars, which essentially translates to if this is case and it has a possibilty of being true then to accept it. Not that so and so say this and if it can be disputed then there is no need to accept it. We will end up with nothing to believe in this way.

There are misconceptions and then there are misconceptions about those misconceptions. My policy has been to go to the source to learn about them, with my heart, mind, body tuned to harnessing the issues from their perspective as much as possible. I do not accept second hand information about a people although I find it interesting to see how they are perceived by the second party.

57

Re: Philosophy of hedonism

**Diwana Bhai,

W**riting anything further to what has already been said seems like ingemination of same thoughts with different words, somewhat semiotic and like brother Psyah has rightfully said that any thought, any philosophy and any standpoint can be challenged, refuted or agreed upon, debate for the sake of debate always draw in semantics and can change the course of real debate, however I am still obliged to clarify a misrepresentation of my thoughts.

I talked objectively when I said that words like lakes of milk, honey, fruits and all that has been mentioned about rewards of heaven are for us to reconcile and recognize the possibilities because I believe and understand that we perceive things better when they can resonate with our experience.

Sweet and refreshing, for instance, may remind the taste of honey to me and especially to Arabs of that time, milk is never without the nostalgia of motherly love. You, on the other hand, refuted my objective perspective with a subjective understanding and belief that these rewards will indeed be there which I never denied, except that I believe that honey in heaven may not be same that we eat here, but it will remind us the honey that we eat here and without the nostalgia of not having it but with a gratitude and gratification of having a better form of it, same goes for every other thing. So in effect we are talking semantics without realizing that a query can be approached from many dimensions and my friend if we believe that Quran is book for all the human beings till the day of Qiyamah, then we must also believe that it fulfills the appetite for guidance of any human with any intellectual level.

Like I said before I understood your point of view entirely and I have no hesitation in agreeing with you on most of what you believe in. I disagreed with your earlier response where you said creation of the human beings was for the pleasure of Allah because this assertion is prone to bring a paradigm change in the code of moral ethics for the relationship of a human to a human and a human to Allah.

I believe that you understand that it is “object of the intention” that formulates the code of good or bad moral conduct, a person whose object of intention is “pleasure” would essentially have a different code of moral practices than a man whose object of intention is gratitude and be gratified with “pleasures” that he has been blessed with. A paradigm shift will be visible in the behavior of two individuals; former attributing every achievement to his struggle, taking pride and feeling arrogant in his personal strength would keep struggling to be stronger, while the later would be more gracious with every achievement, more humble and more gratified.

Denying what is permissible can be philosophy of “Rehbaneyat” but has nothing to do with Islam, limitation on the freedom are only to make sure the right of freedom exists for others people as well.

.

58

Peace Psyah!

Indeed. Its true to my understanding.

I don't think I was referring that to being lazy.

What I was referring to being lazy is the belief in which a person thinks world is no place of pleasure for mankind and universe and world is a prison and in turn stops struggling to make world a better place for each other. Physical beauty of world and its maintenance for us and upcoming generation is also our duty.

What we have seen in last few hundred years, muslims (as well some other sects of non-muslims have stopped thinking) and have been taught to keep life simple to an exaggeration that we at least have become dependent on others who continue to struggle and we in turn have become slave. We also do not shy of using the items of comfort created or made by others but still try to promote 'pure struggle for life-after'...while leaving this world aside.

It is our laziness that we need to condemn; and we need to stop thinking of;

a- world as 'sour grape'

b- calling others to be 'materialistic', and we,.....the spiritual thinkers are better!!!

Since we cannot to anything, we find refuge in saying the world is a worthless item of Allah's creation, we were sent here just to worship by putting our head down on ground or do tasbeeh, world is not a permanent place for us, so why struggle?? This is where I think we need to work also.

Please don't get me wrong, I am only targetting extreme thinkers here.

Here I think we need to be careful.

This line of thought is akin to 'original sin' and man is 'intrinsically sinner' which is not islamic at all.

Yes Adam AS and Bibi Hawwa were tricked by Iblis, but it is also true they turned towards Allah for mercy and mercy was granted.

So do we not believe on pardon of Allah anymore?

When he pardoned and appointed Man as his Naib and khalifa, the oringinal sin has absolutely no meaning. Every baby born is pure, without sin and should be guiltless.

Its the bad action in this world which one needs to feel guilty about when capable of understanding the difference in good or bad. Meaning when the person is adult and is otherwise sane.

Do we need to continue carrying guilt for the rest of our time in this world?

No. Not for the reason what Adam (AS) did.

(Off Topic: I would like to mention here there are some schools of thought which have a different view on the events described in Quran/scriptures and even question if this happened in succession as it was described

-they question the meaning of word 'Qalu' or 'Qulna'............or whether the event ocurred in heaven above or in the world. They even question if Adam AS was was even created in heaven above or heaven-like place in this world)

I will look it up. But need reference to this bold part of yours.

The verse which I remember reading refers to Iblis telling **both **to do something in order to get eternal life.
,
I may be wrong, but **both **were tricked. As far as my understanding is, this might have been promoted by some people to make women feel bad about themselves. Not Islamic.

Anyhow, you have once again tried to convince me of original sin and we need to feel 'guilty'. Answer is above in this post.

One can say: Adam/Hawwa AS did it. Not me! I was not there. I should be held responsible of my actions, good or bad.

Yes it is true. But doubting one's intention for no reason is not the way to discuss. I say what I understand. No ulterior motive here or intention to win a 'debate'!!

Ijmaa of true scholars? About what? This is not sarcasm. We need to also admit, there IS no Ijma and no 'True' scholar. Like you said, given enough motive any belief can be defended or refuted. True scholar is the one who we mostly agree to and feel that he is true. It only comes from our own understanding and sincere search on available information, observing the effects of certain belief on mankind and keep questiong what is prevalent.

I quoted you verses to prove my points. Please refer to the post where I submitted verses full of Allah's pleasure being the duty assigned to mankind and Allah says I was pleased and in turn they (pious individuals are) pleased.

I also asked you to provide your evidence in which you mentioned angels also have choices. I said I gave you mine and lets hear why you think so.

Very good statement!

This is what I also try to follow.

59

Brother Intelliphant, Peace to you.

True.

What I thought that you did not want to attribute these items as providing pleasure.

My brother, there will be so many statements in Quran which can be argued the same way.

Fire may not be fire its just extreme hot painful (no pleasure) sensation.

Considering your clarification here that you mention these could be a vehicle of gratification, then I agree. But these still may be true as they are described.

End result, heaven is a place of pleasure.

Struggling for heaven is not a sin and should not be looked upon as if something bad. If this makes people to do something good then its fine.

When we tell a child to work hard and pass the test so it will make us proud and be happy for it, then if this makes the child pass the test, what is wrong in it?
Why do we want to believe that the child should pass the test anyway without thinking if it makes us feel proud or happy? Should we 'judge' the child and say, Oh he only did it to 'please' us!!!!??

This is what Allah promised to good people and we as human (with all our needs attached) should be ready to take his offer. I do not think Allah will 'judge' us for it.

In fact, always be positive and ask for mercy that even if we did not have chance to ask for forgiveness for some mistake, Allah may forgive seeing our overall performance.

This comes from trusting Allah and considering him full of mercy by default!

Code of moral ethics? I am not sure what that means. We cannot judge Allah here. There are so many verses where word please and be pleased used by Allah himself. And if it pleases Allah to see man worshiping him and thanking him for what is provided despite of having choice of not be thankful, then who are we to create a code of moral ethics?

Wah! Absolutely true. This is my position. Glad to see you separated this 'Rahbaniyat' from Islam. I mentioned above Majoosi and Rahibs above as well somewhere.

What's with the Opera??