Yes. I agree seek is not really the word which could be attributed to almighty.
However, creation of mankind (a material object) had nothing but one intention. Achievement of pleasure by almighty. Much more than seeing angels worshiping.
Also as I mentioned earlier, the hedonistic trait/property/instinct is created in mankind to perform certain acts to achieve pleasure in heaven. We all know heavenly life will be based on nothing but pleasure.
This delayed pleasure is what is promised to 'pious' people by almighty.
(The pious people do claim they get pleasure out of performing what is required by them on earth!)
In the end, both creator and creation is after pleasure. Means, method, and timing is different. Isn't it? :-)
I am trying to make a point here that hedonistic behavior is not necessarily bad or 'animalistic' if the vehicle used to obtain it is under control.
Peace diwana
Pleasure is being over-simplified there is a world of difference between carnal desire and peace both of which are forms of pleasure.
There is selfish pleasure vs selfless pleasure, there is peace vs euphoria, there is hope vs satisfaction ... All are pleasures however we cannot undermine the magnitude, duration, waiting time, and other parameters that make them subtly different from one another. Even a person who commits suicide is acting upon a sense of pleasure in the act ...
So the anchor placed on hedonism i.e. the control of the vehicle for pleasure in my understanding negates the hedonistic element and thus hedonism is no longer the act, but another form of pleasure seeking act. Hedonism is more than just pleasure seeking, the condition comes along with the intent that the person is in CHARGE of himself and that it is his RIGHT to seek pleasure. Should the vehicle change then the condition of hedonism is no longer the case thus we cannot call all pleasure seeking acts hedonism, so in my view hedonism can still be seen as a bad thing in it's complete unadulterated meaning.
Yes. I agree seek is not really the word which could be attributed to almighty.
However, creation of mankind (a material object) had nothing but one intention. Achievement of pleasure by almighty. Much more than seeing angels worshiping .
.
Judging Allah with a yardstick of human conception of “intent” is way misplaced and obviously flawed. Human conception of intent spurs out from the perception of intended results or consequences of the actions to accomplish the intent; my intention to work hard at my job is not likely without a perception of intended results which may or may not be accomplished either owing to my failure to work hard or ill conceived intended results.
Now in accordance with your logic, if pleasure is the "only" intended object for Allah in the creation of human race and path to that pleasure for the deity is conditioned with our ability to worship Allah in a way Allah should be worshiped, then, my friend, our failure to worship Allah becomes Allah’s ( NaoozBillah) failure to conceive intended results which ultimately crumbles the very base of our faith in Allah as the only one being omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent.
For the rest of your thoughts brother psyah has already given an excellent point of view.
I would like to put across my perspective from an Islamic slant and hopefully clarify some of the above said also:
The problem Islam has with hedonism is not because hedonism is pleasure seeking, but because it appoints pleasure as a god other than Allah (SWT), that it allows the human mind and heart to choose it's course in life instead of submitting to the Will of God exclusively, i.e. whether it is pleasurable do so or not.
Asceticism is really only a tool to bend hedonistically influenced Muslims back to a central condition - to be balanced.
Religion or Islam is pleasure promoting, but at the same time it contextualises it ... forsaking immediate gratification for a greater pleasure in the Hereafter. Hedonism has no scope for an Afterlife, it's tenets are limited to this world and this life. Islam is also comforting for those in pain, promoting forebearance, whereas hedonism offers no olive branch to them and promotes instead people to change in times of hardship instead of forebearance.
Hedonism is the actual religion of most Atheists, especially those who know nothing of science, and moreso those who specialise in it, because they aught to know better.
Thanks for your point of view and like always it is sane and refreshing.
Thanks for your point of view and like always it is sane and refreshing.
Peace IntelliPhant
Humbled by your praise ... I've just checked up that hedonism is about the seeking of "sensual" gratification, so that confirms it:
We have a number of interactions with the universe around us, the lowest being the sensory world, then we have the intellectual, then the intuitive, then the spiritual, as the sophistication of our interaction increases then the pleasure in seeking those forms are accordingly more sophisticated. Therefore as a postulate it is of greater virtue to seek spiritual pleasures than sensory ones.
Pleasure is being over-simplified there is a world of difference between carnal desire and peace both of which are forms of pleasure.
There is selfish pleasure vs selfless pleasure, there is peace vs euphoria, there is hope vs satisfaction ... All are pleasures however we cannot undermine the magnitude, duration, waiting time, and other parameters that make them subtly different from one another. Even a person who commits suicide is acting upon a sense of pleasure in the act ...
So the anchor placed on hedonism i.e. the control of the vehicle for pleasure in my understanding negates the hedonistic element and thus hedonism is no longer the act, but another form of pleasure seeking act. Hedonism is more than just pleasure seeking, the condition comes along with the intent that the person is in CHARGE of himself and that it is his RIGHT to seek pleasure. Should the vehicle change then the condition of hedonism is no longer the case thus we cannot call all pleasure seeking acts hedonism, so in my view hedonism can still be seen as a bad thing in it's complete unadulterated meaning.
What do we know almighty created human being for?
To worship while being on earth? Nope!
For the sake of being literally correct, Adam AS was not made to go to earth when he was created.
He was sent to heaven as we know to worship Almighty (while being in heaven) since Almighty wanted some creation other than angels who worship him like robots.
He was bored and despite having all heaven to himself he asked for something else.
He was provided female counterpart. For what? Having companion in heaven was meant to give him 'pleasure' beyond he could get from all heavenly items.
Something then happened and he was sent to earth and was promised what??
Ans: Acknowledge Almighty's presence, worship him as being the lord and start a new generation of mankind who would do the same. All with the result?
Ans: Return to heaven and enjoy what?
Ans: Quran is very specific in laying down the details of items in heaven to enjoy. We all know what they are including women who were not touched before. (Its another topic though)
What will pious people have in heaven and are promised?
Final answer: Pleasure.
(what will people in hell have? Displeasure.)
Lets now talk about sensory or non-sensory pleasure.
The discrimination is completely arbitrary.
We all know even dreaming (non-sensory) of some acts results in the same feeling as doing the act while being awake. Brain is a marvelous organ in the body.
Perhaps we need not discriminate sensory versus non-sensory since what I have been focusing was, on the end result. Feeling good.
I also mentioned that vehicle, amount and timing of pleasure is what we need to control as human being in order to be considered pious.Otherwise seeking or even achieving pleasure by itself is not a negative trait.
I think when we say spiritual pleasure, we just seem to try to be politically correct since the word spiritual automatically is accepted as being 'good'.
Pleasure is a pure term in my opinion.
Allah gets pleased **when he is worshiped by human since human has been given the choice. Pious individual get **pleasure out of worshiping Allah as well as enjoying the worldly items.
These so called 'purely spiritual' kind of thoughts and sitting in a dark place (khanqah) and worshiping Allah was never meant to be the goal for mankind.
Quran says enjoy all you want in the world what we have created for you. Just remember who provided you these items of pleasure.
Again, seeking/obtaining pleasure out of worldly items is **not bad **as some people like to promote.
Now speaking of selfish and selfless pleasure. I have mentioned the vehicle to obtain pleasure is what needs to be controlled.
*Off course heaven and earth are created for pleasure of mankind if pass the test. But whole mankind is created by Allah for his pleasure. It's that simple!
*
Peace.
Judging Allah with a yardstick of human conception of “intent” is way misplaced and obviously flawed. Human conception of intent spurs out from the perception of intended results or consequences of the actions to accomplish the intent; my intention to work hard at my job is not likely without a perception of intended results which may or may not be accomplished either owing to my failure to work hard or ill conceived intended results.
Not judging Alllah at all here. What else should we think of intention of Allah to create mankind? Worshiping him out of our own will to please him is the duty assigned to us. Yes he gave us choices and free will of going the wrong way or right way. He care less of our choices. Our choices will lead us to reward (pleasure) or punishment (displeasure).
**Pleasing ourselves while pleasing him= Pleasure in life after.
Pleasing ourselves without pleasing him=Displeasure hereafter.**
So my analogy says, he wants us to please him and does not restrict us from pleasing ourselves provided the means and amount is controlled so we do not forget him.
Now in accordance with your logic, if pleasure is the "only" intended object for Allah in the creation of human race and path to that pleasure for the deity is conditioned with our ability to worship Allah in a way Allah should be worshiped, then, my friend, our failure to worship Allah becomes Allah’s ( NaoozBillah) failure to conceive intended results which ultimately crumbles the very base of our faith in Allah as the only one being omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent.
Same answer here as above. He does not care for our choices. Its we who have to be making the right decision. My analogy does not put Allah responsible of our actions at all. He gave us directions time and time again as we all know. Sorry if any of my statement made you come to this conclusion.
In essence, results of his intention is our responsibility.
For the rest of your thoughts brother psyah has already given an excellent point of view.
For the sake of being literally correct, Adam AS was not made to go to earth when he was created.
He was sent to heaven as we know to worship Almighty (while being in heaven) since Almighty wanted some creation other than angels who worship him like robots.
He was bored and despite having all heaven to himself he asked for something else.
He was provided female counterpart. For what? Having companion in heaven was meant to give him 'pleasure' beyond he could get from all heavenly items.
Something then happened and he was sent to earth and was promised what??
Ans: Acknowledge Almighty's presence, worship him as being the lord and start a new generation of mankind who would do the same. All with the result?
Ans: Return to heaven and enjoy what?
Ans: Quran is very specific in laying down the details of items in heaven to enjoy. We all know what they are including women who were not touched before. (Its another topic though)
What will pious people have in heaven and are promised?
Final answer: Pleasure.
(what will people in hell have? Displeasure.)
Lets now talk about sensory or non-sensory pleasure.
The discrimination is completely arbitrary.
We all know even dreaming (non-sensory) of some acts results in the same feeling as doing the act while being awake. Brain is a marvelous organ in the body.
Perhaps we need not discriminate sensory versus non-sensory since what I have been focusing was, on the end result. Feeling good.
I also mentioned that vehicle, amount and timing of pleasure is what we need to control as human being in order to be considered pious.Otherwise seeking or even achieving pleasure by itself is not a negative trait.
I think when we say spiritual pleasure, we just seem to try to be politically correct since the word spiritual automatically is accepted as being 'good'.
Pleasure is a pure term in my opinion.
Allah gets pleased **when he is worshiped by human since human has been given the choice. Pious individual get **pleasure out of worshiping Allah as well as enjoying the worldly items.
These so called 'purely spiritual' kind of thoughts and sitting in a dark place (khanqah) and worshiping Allah was never meant to be the goal for mankind.
Quran says enjoy all you want in the world what we have created for you. Just remember who provided you these items of pleasure.
Again, seeking/obtaining pleasure out of worldly items is **not bad **as some people like to promote.
Now speaking of selfish and selfless pleasure. I have mentioned the vehicle to obtain pleasure is what needs to be controlled.
Off course heaven and earth are created for pleasure of mankind if pass the test. But whole mankind is created by Allah for his pleasure. It's that simple!
Peace.
Peace diwana
First of all that what you have posted is really twisted stuff!
I have highlighted a section above for your benefit and the readers I am repasting it here ... you said ...
These so called 'purely spiritual' kind of thoughts and sitting in a dark place (khanqah) and worshiping Allah was never meant to be the goal for mankind.
Let me remind you this world is not our goal
Let me remind you we are in a state of separation from our Lord
Let me remind Jinn and us were not created for other than to worship Him, contextually we were not created but to discover and know Allah, to love Allah is our need, it is not our desire. The desire is a fitnah set-up as a rival to our Love in God.
Of course you understand all this, so there is no need for me to go in to detail.
Heaven is not our goal ... The Beatific Vision that is our true goal. Heaven shall be an abode for those who sacrificed their 'desire' whether it served their interests or not.
This is the position of Islam ... And Allah (SWT) Knows Best
First of all that what you have posted is really twisted stuff!
I have highlighted a section above for your benefit and the readers I am repasting it here ... you said ...
These so called 'purely spiritual' kind of thoughts and sitting in a dark place (khanqah) and worshiping Allah was never meant to be the goal for mankind.
Let me remind you this world is not our goal
Let me remind you we are in a state of separation from our Lord
Let me remind Jinn and us were not created for other than to worship Him, contextually we were not created but to discover and know Allah, to love Allah is our need, it is not our desire. The desire is a fitnah set-up as a rival to our Love in God.
Of course you understand all this, so there is no need for me to go in to detail.
**
Heaven is not our goal **... The Beatific Vision that is our true goal. Heaven shall be an abode for those who sacrificed their 'desire' whether it served their interests or not.
This is the position of Islam ... And Allah (SWT) Knows Best
Peace Psyah!
I am very well aware of your position and your admiration to sufi version of 'islam'. Sorry if I openly challenged this version of religion.
It is true that earth is not a destiny for mankind as I also mentioned in my post. But when you say heaven is not our goal then what is it that makes mankind different from angels?
What I tried to say that it was the intention of Allah to create us with choices and desires. And he also did not want us to be like angels with no purpose other than worshiping.
**To try to become like the angles is not only degrading the importance and value of being human but also to negate the intention of Allah.
**If Allah really wanted us to just worship him then why not simply make more angels??
Having said that, the salvation and attainment of higher level of admiration by Allah for us, is to use good judgment in obtaining pleasure on earth. The method and means proscribed by Allah. Be happy and make others happy.
Allah did not mention anywhere that sending Adam to earth was like a punishment. He made Adam his Naib and Khalifa. Promised heaven if fulfilled his duties as a mankind. Not as an Angel.
Please remember, Angels bowed to Adam!
Because Adam had something which Angels did not. Knowledge. Knowledge which will make him decide by choice to worship or not to worship. Yes worshiping pleases pious individuals but items on earth are also at the disposal of mankind to enjoy.
Mankind is not required to live like Majoosi, Rahib, Monks, Buddha. Man is suppsed to marry, have children, work hard to make a living, think to make life easy for himself and others, involve in worldly affairs and yet at the same time worship.
Mankind is supposed to live like the prophet (SAW) who married ten times with women of all ages, ate sweet items and openly admitted he enjoyed 'Halwa'.
He liked wearing simple but otherwise nice clothes and used Itar (perfume).He let Ayesha enjoy the street show by lifting her up...He allowed musical instruments at wedding ceremony...etc.
He had his companions poor and rich.
Its a very concete thinking to say we are made to worship only and nothing but worshiping. Does Allah need worshipers? No he does not.
He is pleased to see human worshiping him despite the choices given and yet acting like a human. Human is neither an angel nor an animal or leaf of a plant.
*This sufi kind of version is creation of few people to make muslims lazy. * When muslims indulged in worldly affairs **along with **real islamic teachings, they created many good things, made medicines, treated the ill, named body parts, made life easy for themselves and others , discovered and ruled the world.
Now muslims are told, do not love earth, look up to go to heaven or just worship Allah and forget earth. They have stopped thinking, to make lives easy for themselves and others.
We can make our desires acceptable by Allah by thanking him.
I want to address your assumptions above. Firstly I do admire some of the Sufi positions, but many of the things said about them are misnomas. Firstly, this idea of people becoming lazy that cannot be true, because one article of Sufis is to undertake khidma of society. That is to do work for random people and ask for nothing in return.
Okay ... now I want to deal with your statement:
To try to become like the angles is not only degrading the importance and value of being human but also to negate the intention of Allah.
I am going to say my bit and you can say what you like after this because I believe arguments are wrong and furthermore about these issues. What I have argued about our purpose of life is from the scripture. The meanings are taken from hadith and commentaries of Sahabis and from contemporary scholars of today.
Okay so here is my explanation and please try to understand it this time.
There is the animal and there is the animal condition
There is the angel and there is the angelic condition
Angels are a form of being whose worship is perfect however they don't have an animalistic disposition that makes it difficult for them to worship. Humans on the other hand are in great disadvantage ... this concept is Qur'anic. To find the truth, to be put in this world whilst forgetting the previous existence and to have desire and then the Shaitan let alone all the physical obstacles in this life is our disadvantage. When man can exceed and conquer these to purify and polish his worship and focus on God whilst ignoring these distractions makes him better than even the angels.
It is true that Allah (SWT) has given us carnal desires but it is also true that we are expected to be in charge of them not to let them be in charge of us. He has put blessing in us to our animal conditions in halal things only, but sin if we use them for haram things. These conditions are for us here on this Earth and in reward we are inshaAllah due many fold more bounties of similar nature but pure ones.
Every pleasure in this Earthly life is attached to fatigue, but the pleasures of Akhirah in Jannah are not tainted with this fatigue, they are pure and abundant. The condition of Jannah is pleasure and it may even be akin to sensual pleasure. But what greater pleasure can there be to see ones Lord? That it is in our fitrah to be attracted to beauty therefore to be attracted The Beautiful is only natural ... this attraction is best served by love and love is the highest form of worship. It goes to show that people who absorb themselves in temporary and worldly pleasures are worshipping those things. It does not mean we are not allowed to enjoy pleasures, yes, but our focus must be Allah (SWT) and for every pleasure we experience we thank Allah (SWT). This is my position and I wish not to argue any more on this topic.
I want to address your assumptions above. Firstly I do admire some of the Sufi positions, but many of the things said about them are misnomas. Firstly, this idea of people becoming lazy that cannot be true, because one article of Sufis is to undertake khidma of society. That is to do work for random people and ask for nothing in return.
Okay ... now I want to deal with your statement:
To try to become like the angles is not only degrading the importance and value of being human but also to negate the intention of Allah.
I am going to say my bit and you can say what you like after this because I believe arguments are wrong and furthermore about these issues. What I have argued about our purpose of life is from the scripture. The meanings are taken from hadith and commentaries of Sahabis and from contemporary scholars of today.
Okay so here is my explanation and please try to understand it this time.
There is the animal and there is the animal condition
There is the angel and there is the angelic condition
Angels are a form of being whose worship is perfect however they don't have an animalistic disposition that makes it difficult for them to worship. Humans on the other hand are in great disadvantage ... this concept is Qur'anic. To find the truth, to be put in this world whilst forgetting the previous existence and to have desire and then the Shaitan let alone all the physical obstacles in this life is our disadvantage. When man can exceed and conquer these to purify and polish his worship and focus on God whilst ignoring these distractions makes him better than even the angels.
It is true that Allah (SWT) has given us carnal desires but it is also true that we are expected to be in charge of them not to let them be in charge of us. He has put blessing in us to our animal conditions in halal things only, but sin if we use them for haram things. These conditions are for us here on this Earth and in reward we are inshaAllah due many fold more bounties of similar nature but pure ones.
Every pleasure in this Earthly life is attached to fatigue, but the pleasures of Akhirah in Jannah are not tainted with this fatigue, they are pure and abundant. The condition of Jannah is pleasure and it may even be akin to sensual pleasure. But what greater pleasure can there be to see ones Lord? That it is in our fitrah to be attracted to beauty therefore to be attracted The Beautiful is only natural ... this attraction is best served by love and love is the highest form of worship. It goes to show that people who absorb themselves in temporary and worldly pleasures are worshipping those things. It does not mean we are not allowed to enjoy pleasures, yes, but our focus must be Allah (SWT) and for every pleasure we experience we thank Allah (SWT). This is my position and I wish not to argue any more on this topic.
Peace again Psyah!
Agree with your post for the most parts. I have been stating the same in different way.
I had no intention of 'arguing' either.
From the first post of mine till now I have said that pleasure and seeking pleasure is not bad by itself as long as it is controlled and simple rules are followed.
When we indulge in worldly affairs to make a living or raise our kids or enjoy playing with them, educate ourselves, become rich and help poor, that also means love for Allah and Ibadat.
Love for Allah does not mean putting head on the floor in sajdah hours and hours of the day , read tasbeeh / zikar for another several hours and forget the surroundings and need of family, relatives or other human beings.
There should not be any attempt to achieve 'angelic properties' either. Would rather keep desires under control as proscribed but not try to minimize or abolish. Desires make human, human and controlling desires makes human good human.
Hope you would agree that we should have pride in being human and not angels. We are the best of all creations of Allah.
Agree with your post for the most parts. I have been stating the same in different way.
I had no intention of 'arguing' either.
From the first post of mine till now I have said that pleasure and seeking pleasure is not bad by itself as long as it is controlled and simple rules are followed.
When we indulge in worldly affairs to make a living or raise our kids or enjoy playing with them, educate ourselves, become rich and help poor, that also means love for Allah and Ibadat.
Love for Allah does not mean putting head on the floor in sajdah hours and hours of the day , read tasbeeh / zikar for another several hours and forget the surroundings and need of family, relatives or other human beings.
There should not be any attempt to achieve 'angelic properties' either. Would rather keep desires under control as proscribed but not try to minimize or abolish. Desires make human, human and controlling desires makes human good human.
Hope you would agree that we should have pride in being human and not angels. We are the best of all creations of Allah.
May we all 'enjoy' life on earth and hereafter.
Peace diwana
It is not my position to believe that humanity with it's faults is the best of creation. Rather only when we conform to our design purpose do we reach that end. We should not have pride. We should minimise our self-worth not minimise our desires, rather we should align our desires that they conform to the whole person worshipping Allah (SWT). Angels we cannot become, but their worship is far more perfect than ours, to aspire to that level is not equivalent to being displeased to be humans. As humans we should fear the burden of the responsibility of being vicegerents for Allah (SWT) rather than take glory or pride in that status.
Hedonism is not Islamic for these reasons, and it is wrong to use a partial definition of hedonism that of pleasure to be the basis to say that it is acceptable Islamically. There is a type of pleasure and basis for pleasure that needs to be understood.
The best analogy I can think of is the attraction of gravity and the attraction of electromagnetism. Although two neutral bodies will exert a force on one another they will gravitate to one another by taking an orbit which is perpendiculr to the path of motion. Alternatively electromagnetism causes two oppositely charged bodies to exert a similar force of attraction but they will move in the same direction to that line of force.
Both are attractions but behave differently ... such is the case I believe between the attraction of worldly pleasures when compared to the attraction to a possible state of satisfaction drawn as a result of trying to please one's Lord. The former being akin to electromagnetic and the latter being like gravitation.
It is not my position to believe that humanity with it's faults is the best of creation. Rather only when we conform to our design purpose do we reach that end. We should not have pride. We should minimise our self-worth not minimise our desires, rather we should align our desires that they conform to the whole person worshipping Allah (SWT). Angels we cannot become, but their worship is far more perfect than ours, to aspire to that level is not equivalent to being displeased to be humans. As humans we should fear the burden of the responsibility of being vicegerents for Allah (SWT) rather than take glory or pride in that status.
Hedonism is not Islamic for these reasons, and it is wrong to use a partial definition of hedonism that of pleasure to be the basis to say that it is acceptable Islamically. There is a type of pleasure and basis for pleasure that needs to be understood.
The best analogy I can think of is the attraction of gravity and the attraction of electromagnetism. Although two neutral bodies will exert a force on one another they will gravitate to one another by taking an orbit which is perpendiculr to the path of motion. Alternatively electromagnetism causes two oppositely charged bodies to exert a similar force of attraction but they will move in the same direction to that line of force.
Both are attractions but behave differently ... such is the case I believe between the attraction of worldly pleasures when compared to the attraction to a possible state of satisfaction drawn as a result of trying to please one's Lord. The former being akin to electromagnetic and the latter being like gravitation.
Peace to you Psyah.
I am sure it is my fault that I have not been able to convey my point across well.
Throughout the thread I said the following. I will try to summarize and will add few more.
1- Pleasure is not bad by itself.
2- The method and amount is what needs to be focused.
3- Being pleased is a quality of Almighty himself.
4- No where Almighty says, stay sad and miserable.
5- Man was created to please Almighty in a way which was not present before.
6- Adam was not to be sent to earth unless we assume and believe that all this was a pre-set plan and whatever happened after Adam's creation was a stage.
7- If Adam was to be sent to earth from beginning then why not create him on earth rather than in heaven?
8- Adam AS was and mankind is different than Angels.
9-Angels bowed both to Almighty and Adam. Adam is supposed to bow to Almighty only.
10- To try to become Angel is degrading the value of mankind. The one who is bowed to should not try to become who bowed.
11- Angelic properties literally is robotic property. Not intended by Almighty to be sought by man since millions of angels were already there.
12- To try to live like angel and try to remove desires altogether is like trying to negate Almighty's will and act against his will or wish.
13- To think that somehow Almighy will be 'pleased' to see man becoming angelic is false notion.
14- Mankind is superior to all in its form by conception to death.
15- Ashraful-Makhlooqat is taken in wrong way by some that its his deeds and not his physical form which makes him Ashraf. Indeed man is Ashraf with the beauty of having desire and choices.
16- Have you ever been to Disney world-Florida?
There is a kid ride on water boat indoor. The boat goes through many doors and each room has many many electronic toys dancing and singing loud the same song over and over again about 'its a beautiful world'. The words are true but the toys are like the angels. Like the robots without feelings and without any other choices but making same sound over and over and over again all day long. The boats full of people keeps going though these rooms.
Now is this something human should do? Certainly not.
Man is not robot.
17- I recall attending one surmon.
The story was about an Aalim, Buzurg or Pir.
He asked a man to struggle to become a good person. The man said how?
The Pir said go out and find me something very disgusting and low quality.
Man goes out and looks around all over and walks through a Jungle.
Suddenly the man had an urge (call of nature) and had to defecate.
When he saw his feces, he became happy and picked up his feces and took to this pir.
The pir said this is not the most disgusting thing. Its you who is disgusting.
You ate nice meal with good smell and look because of your company this food became feces!
So when you realize you are nothing but a dirt, you will be good person.
Commentary: I was so disgusted even listening to this and looked over to people who were shaking their heads and saying...Wah Wah! The person next to me just smiled and said something is not right here. I said, yep. Time for me to go. I don't have to listen to this crap when Allah's creations respected me for who I am. Earth, heaven and all in between is made for me to learn, enjoy and search.
This is the kind of silliness somehow is added to religion.
Why can't be human be good without feeling low of themselves?
Why can't we just be proud and be thankful to be who we are?
17- Yes we need to be proud to be the best of all creations as even almighty said.
We ARE better than plants, animals, Jins and even angels...in the form we are created.
**
18-Yes, we need to **control but not **try to abolish our desires. **In this way we will not be human.
19- Thinking that world is our destination is sin in religion. Being happy is not a sin. Taking pleasure out of world is not a sin.
20- Thinking of getting pleasure out of heavenly items is certainly not a sin.
Acting good to work towards getting heaven is also not a sin.
If it were to be a sin then Almighy would not have promised it or advised to believe on it or struggle for it.
I will stop here, and hope my points are a little better understood this time.
In the end: Proud to be human and if Allah wishes to send us back to earth, we should ask to be human, if not any other better creation Almighy decides to make in future.
I will appreciate if any of you can contrast the Philosophy of Hedonism with the concept of Tazkiah-e-Nafs
Thanks for asking a good question; I will not go into the details of hedonism because a lot has been said already though the difference of opinion does exist pertaining to its perception as good or bad.
Tazkiah-e-Nafs is a compound word comprising “Tazkiah” and “Nafs”, we probably can not understand the true meaning of this word without understanding meanings of individual words.
Originating from an Arabic root “Tazkiah” means “purify” while “Nafs” is our physical self with all the ingrained animal instinct, desires legitimate or illegitimate and immense propensity of getting entangled into quagmire of desires. A human being is a complex life form with three distinct identities, a physical being, an intellectual being and a spiritual being. What distinguishes a man from an animal is his intellect and his ability to use that intellect in good or in bad way.
Hedonism is a philosophy that appeals our intellectual being to follow blindly our animal instinct in the name of pleasure or in the name of happiness and unfortunately with out any inbred moral values whereas Tazkiah-e-Nafs is an effort to purify your intellectual being from the stains of following animal instinct.
In other words both Takiyah-e-Nafs and hedonism both appeal to same devil of desires while one tries to tame it other keeps appreciating it.
I am sure it is my fault that I have not been able to convey my point across well.
Throughout the thread I said the following. I will try to summarize and will add few more.
1- Pleasure is not bad by itself.
2- The method and amount is what needs to be focused.
3- Being pleased is a quality of Almighty himself.
4- No where Almighty says, stay sad and miserable.
5- Man was created to please Almighty in a way which was not present before.
6- Adam was not to be sent to earth unless we assume and believe that all this was a pre-set plan and whatever happened after Adam's creation was a stage.
7- If Adam was to be sent to earth from beginning then why not create him on earth rather than in heaven?
8- Adam AS was and mankind is different than Angels.
9-Angels bowed both to Almighty and Adam. Adam is supposed to bow to Almighty only.
10- To try to become Angel is degrading the value of mankind. The one who is bowed to should not try to become who bowed.
11- Angelic properties literally is robotic property. Not intended by Almighty to be sought by man since millions of angels were already there.
12- To try to live like angel and try to remove desires altogether is like trying to negate Almighty's will and act against his will or wish.
13- To think that somehow Almighy will be 'pleased' to see man becoming angelic is false notion.
14- Mankind is superior to all in its form by conception to death.
15- Ashraful-Makhlooqat is taken in wrong way by some that its his deeds and not his physical form which makes him Ashraf. Indeed man is Ashraf with the beauty of having desire and choices.
16- Have you ever been to Disney world-Florida?
There is a kid ride on water boat indoor. The boat goes through many doors and each room has many many electronic toys dancing and singing loud the same song over and over again about 'its a beautiful world'. The words are true but the toys are like the angels. Like the robots without feelings and without any other choices but making same sound over and over and over again all day long. The boats full of people keeps going though these rooms.
Now is this something human should do? Certainly not.
Man is not robot.
17- I recall attending one surmon.
The story was about an Aalim, Buzurg or Pir.
He asked a man to struggle to become a good person. The man said how?
The Pir said go out and find me something very disgusting and low quality.
Man goes out and looks around all over and walks through a Jungle.
Suddenly the man had an urge (call of nature) and had to defecate.
When he saw his feces, he became happy and picked up his feces and took to this pir.
The pir said this is not the most disgusting thing. Its you who is disgusting.
You ate nice meal with good smell and look because of your company this food became feces!
So when you realize you are nothing but a dirt, you will be good person.
Commentary: I was so disgusted even listening to this and looked over to people who were shaking their heads and saying...Wah Wah! The person next to me just smiled and said something is not right here. I said, yep. Time for me to go. I don't have to listen to this crap when Allah's creations respected me for who I am. Earth, heaven and all in between is made for me to learn, enjoy and search.
This is the kind of silliness somehow is added to religion.
Why can't be human be good without feeling low of themselves?
Why can't we just be proud and be thankful to be who we are?
17- Yes we need to be proud to be the best of all creations as even almighty said.
We ARE better than plants, animals, Jins and even angels...in the form we are created.
18-Yes, we need to control but not **try to abolish our desires. **In this way we will not be human.
19- Thinking that world is our destination is sin in religion. Being happy is not a sin. Taking pleasure out of world is not a sin.
20- Thinking of getting pleasure out of heavenly items is certainly not a sin.
Acting good to work towards getting heaven is also not a sin.
If it were to be a sin then Almighy would not have promised it or advised to believe on it or struggle for it.
I will stop here, and hope my points are a little better understood this time.
In the end: Proud to be human and if Allah wishes to send us back to earth, we should ask to be human, if not any other better creation Almighy decides to make in future.
Peace diwana
I feel the only place of difference between us is the side topic of whether man is better by form than other creations or better by purpose.
The reasons that I have heard why it is purpose and not form is for two main reasons:
a) Iblis did not bow to Adam (AS) on the basis that the form was inferior to his own.
b) Angels queried the wisdom of the appointment of an 'animal or Jinn' to be placed on Earth as a viceregent for Allah (SWT) on the basis that similar models were engaged in bloodshed. The response given to the angels was that Adam (AS) could NAME things, that they (the angels) were incapable of doing. That to declare a name is to privately create a concept, so the power of creation was given to us, not to create in reality but to create in the conceptual world.
Others reasons include:
c) Jinn too are given choice
d) Many humans will be in hell but no angel shall be
For these reasons it cannot be deduced we are better by physical model, however, our bodies do indeed serve to be the superior of the physical moulds, such that we walk upright and eat by putting our hands to our mouth rather than mouth to our food, etc. Yet we are weaker than chimps, and slower than cheetahs, can only fly in machines, and it takes us a long time to get to a position of strength from childhood, and our eyes are poor in the dark. We are amongst the least likely to survive if we didn't have parents, and so on. Our might is in our adaptability and ability to manipulate in adulthood. Again these are not physical traits.
e) It is an established belief that Iblis was dethroned from his position due to pride. Iblis was being over zealous and failed to follow a simple order of Allah (SWT) but instead exercised his choice to only prostrate to Allah (SWT).
f) Surah An-Naziat verse 27 "Are you more difficult to create or is the heaven that He Constructed?" - Implies that heaven is more complex than humans in make-up.
g) In Surah At-Tin (The Fig)
**4. **Verily, We created man of the best stature (mould),
**5. **Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low,
**6. **Save those who believe ...
Verse 4 implies stature (which can be taken physcially or allegorically), and Verse 5 implies status or location
But verse 6 tells us how some of those who are made in the 'best stature' can avoid being reduced and that by simply 'believing'
I have been unable to find the term Ashraf-al-Makhluqat perhaps you can provide it from the Qur'an for me to look this term up too, as it is this term we tend to use all the time.
I feel the only place of difference between us is the side topic of whether man is better by form than other creations or better by purpose.
Peace Psyah!
This is great and I am glad for this. It just made our discussion much narrowed down and my response will focus on this.
The reasons that I have heard why it is purpose and not form is for two main reasons:
a) Iblis did not bow to Adam (AS) on the basis that the form was inferior to his own.
And we both know Iblis was wrong in his assumption. Wasn't he ordered to bow to us by Almighty?
b) Angels queried the wisdom of the appointment of an 'animal or Jinn' to be placed on Earth as a viceregent for Allah (SWT) on the basis that similar models were engaged in bloodshed. The response given to the angels was that Adam (AS) could NAME things, that they (the angels) were incapable of doing. That to declare a name is to privately create a concept, so the power of creation was given to us, not to create in reality but to create in the conceptual world.
It may be that you referred Human as 'animal' but its the human appointment as vicegerent which was questioned and the answer from almighty was you do not know what I know. And then Adam was asked to name items and showed his knowledge (given to him off course) which was not given to angels.
The order from Allah to Iblis or angels to bow to human is a simple proof man is better than angels and jinns.
Others reasons include:
c) Jinn too are given choice
Maybe or definitely whatever the situation, Human is praised in Quran. Besides we just do not know many details about them. For simplicity, please remember, Iblis was a Jinn and was asked to bow to man.
d) Many humans will be in hell but no angel shall be
off course. But Isn't it the same thing I said angels have no choice so they have no reward or punishment result. Howcome they are better by this analogy?
One can also say they will not be rewarded with heaven. Human can but they cannot.
besides they don't even have the ability to the taste and enjoy heaven or good earthly items, hence man is better in this regard. Man is not a battery operated machine and is capable of enjoying the reward or suffer the punishment.
For these reasons it cannot be deduced we are better by physical model, however, our bodies do indeed serve to be the superior of the physical moulds, such that we walk upright and eat by putting our hands to our mouth rather than mouth to our food, etc.
Yet we are weaker than chimps, and slower than cheetahs, can only fly in machines, and it takes us a long time to get to a position of strength from childhood, and our eyes are poor in the dark. We are amongst the least likely to survive if we didn't have parents, and so on.
Wow, I expected a little better my brother. These so called weaknesses still not enough to lower the level of man compared to animals or birds.
Without parents a lot of creations of Allah cannot survive. These animals or birds can do only those acts they are planted by Allah in them. However, Man can change his properties.
A fish can only swim but not fly. Man can not only walk but can swim and can find his ways to fly. A bird on the other hand cannot even find its ways to swim under water.
Ever seen a cheetah riding a truck or landing on the moon by its abilities? Man can and can even catch a cheetah no matter fast a cheetah be. We just have to go and visit zoo sometimes.
I know you knew all this but I had to make a point here that a man in his abilities and being born with mind and limitless thought power can overcome its so called weaknesses.
Our might is in our adaptability and ability to manipulate in adulthood. Again these are not physical traits.
Yes it is a physical trait. Brain is still a physical part of the body and it superseded human so called weaknesses and is a tie breaker if any. Human develops stroke (damaged brain) a disease, and human is all weak again.
e) It is an established belief that Iblis was dethroned from his position **due to pride. **Iblis was being over zealous and failed to follow a simple order of Allah (SWT) but instead exercised his choice to only prostrate to Allah (SWT).
No sir, I beg to differ. As you mentioned in second sentence, its not the pride only, its not following the order due to pride that caused him to be dethroned.
Now I never said man should just be proud of being human and ignore Allah's orders.
I asked the questions in my earlier post just for this reason.
**"Why can't be human be good without feeling low of themselves?
Why can't we just be proud and be thankful to be who we are?"**
I added the word be thankful there didn't I?
f) Surah An-Naziat verse 27 "Are you more difficult to create or is the heaven that He Constructed?" - Implies that heaven is more complex than humans in make-up.
Isn't this blasphemous?
Are you comparing the abilities of Allah to create human versus heaven?
Essentially what one can take from your understanding on it, that somehow Allah had to work harder to create heaven than human?
I think in the zeal of trying to prove human should feel low of themselves, you did not pay attention to the context of this verse and answered 'yes' to the question posed or agreed as if creating human is less difficult than heaven or creating heaven more difficult than creating human.
First of all, this question was asked in the context of resurrection of human being after death and to those who would not believe resurrection. Allah wanted the answer from us to be 'No'.
**
Both creating the heaven and human is equally easy for Allah.**
g) In Surah At-Tin (The Fig)
**4. **Verily, We created man of the best stature (mould),
**5. **Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low,
**6. **Save those who believe ...
Verse 4 implies stature (which can be taken physcially or allegorically), and Verse 5 implies status or location
But verse 6 tells us how some of those who are made in the 'best stature' can avoid being reduced and that by simply 'believing'
I have been unable to find the term Ashraf-al-Makhluqat perhaps you can provide it from the Qur'an for me to look this term up too, as it is this term we tend to use all the time.
Answer to this is on its way. Sorry, have something else come up.
OK. I am back.
The verses you quoted are related to difference in youth and old age (weaker) state of man.
Surely Allah said he created man to be the best in his form. (Verse 4)
But when old age and weaker state takes over (verse 5), even though man may not be able to perform as many good deeds during old age, his previously recorded good deeds will still make him eligible for reward. (verse 6 and onward)
Hence, man is still the best creation in its form as Allah said. Its the old age and weaker physical state which is referred to lower level.
Also Ashraful-Makhlooqat is a term used based on Quranic verse praising, respecting human and its creation.
The creation of Adam from clay and the verse 38:72 is an open example of it.
**
038.072 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."**
Allah goes on to order angels and Iblis to fall ye down!
**Can you tell me who except human, had the privilege to be "breathed Almighty's spirit"?
We are talking about its creation; and good deeds or bad deeds, choice no choice, desire no desire...... are not even in to picture yet!!!!!**
This is great and I am glad for this. It just made our discussion much narrowed down and my response will focus on this.
And we both know Iblis was wrong in his assumption. Wasn't he ordered to bow to us by Almighty?
Peace diwana
It is my understanding that he Iblis was right in his justification at least logically, he was very logical in his resistance for elsewhere he makes mention that the human is made from dust which is low where he is made from fire which reaches for the sky.
What he failed to realise was that he appointed his rationale higher than the instruction of God. If Allah (SWT) orders us to prostrate to a rabbit tomorrow would you not do it? For sure a true believer will look past the shortfalls of rabbits and prostrate to it on the grounds that it was expressly instructed by Allah (SWT). Disobedience to a direct instruction from Allah (SWT) is as good as Shirk.
It may be that you referred Human as 'animal' but its the human appointment as vicegerent which was questioned and the answer from almighty was you do not know what I know. And then Adam was asked to name items and showed his knowledge (given to him off course) which was not given to angels.
The order from Allah to Iblis or angels to bow to human is a simple proof man is better than angels and jinns.
Knowledge is not something innate to our physical make-up, rather it is a function of the soul that is breathed into the form. The order to bow to man in my understanding is only because man was made vicegerent. More specifically the Best of Creation i.e. Muhammad (SAW) would be in that form.
Maybe or definitely whatever the situation, Human is praised in Quran. Besides we just do not know many details about them. For simplicity, please remember, Iblis was a Jinn and was asked to bow to man.
off course. But Isn't it the same thing I said angels have no choice so they have no reward or punishment result. Howcome they are better by this analogy?
One can also say they will not be rewarded with heaven. Human can but they cannot.
besides they don't even have the ability to the taste and enjoy heaven or good earthly items, hence man is better in this regard. Man is not a battery operated machine and is capable of enjoying the reward or suffer the punishment.
Is it not therefore the premise that those humans who go to hell are not better than angels? Or am I missing something here? All I have been saying is that we are only Ashraf-al-Makhluqat if we pervade those desires that take us away from the Love of Allah (SWT).
Wow, I expected a little better my brother. These so called weaknesses still not enough to lower the level of man compared to animals or birds.
Without parents a lot of creations of Allah cannot survive. These animals or birds can do only those acts they are planted by Allah in them. However, Man can change his properties.
A fish can only swim but not fly. Man can not only walk but can swim and can find his ways to fly. A bird on the other hand cannot even find its ways to swim under water.
Ever seen a cheetah riding a truck or landing on the moon by its abilities? Man can and can even catch a cheetah no matter fast a cheetah be. We just have to go and visit zoo sometimes.
I know you knew all this but I had to make a point here that a man in his abilities and being born with mind and limitless thought power can overcome its so called weaknesses.
It is not a matter of form but rather of the power of manipulation which comes as a result of the spirit inside that form.
Yes it is a physical trait. Brain is still a physical part of the body and it superseded human so called weaknesses and is a tie breaker if any. Human develops stroke (damaged brain) a disease, and human is all weak again.
This is a different discussion whether the mind is the brain ... Obviously I have reservations.
No sir, I beg to differ. As you mentioned in second sentence, its not the pride only, its not following the order due to pride that caused him to be dethroned.
Now I never said man should just be proud of being human and ignore Allah's orders.
I asked the questions in my earlier post just for this reason.
"Why can't be human be good without feeling low of themselves?
Why can't we just be proud and be thankful to be who we are?"
I added the word be thankful there didn't I?
We are judged on the intentions of our actions. Having the pride caused Iblis to fail, he took pride in his ability to choose which was better to prostrate to Allah (SWT) or to a mud form. His pride in his ability of discernment caused him to error because all he had to do was realise WHO was instructing him to do that. i.e. Submit to Allah (SWT) through pleasure and pain through rational and irrational ... just submit.
On this merit it is clear Iblis followed the hedonisitic mindset and failed to simply submit.
Isn't this blasphemous?
Are you comparing the abilities of Allah to create human versus heaven?
Essentially what one can take from your understanding on it, that somehow Allah had to work harder to create heaven than human?
I think in the zeal of trying to prove human should feel low of themselves, you did not pay attention to the context of this verse and answered 'yes' to the question posed or agreed as if creating human is less difficult than heaven or creating heaven more difficult than creating human.
First of all, this question was asked in the context of resurrection of human being after death and to those who would not believe resurrection. Allah wanted the answer from us to be 'No'.
Both creating the heaven and human is equally easy for Allah.
All things finite are equally finite before The Infinite, but it does not mean that all finite things are equal amongst each other. The question is asked of man to ponder that if man were to make if he could on the one hand other men and compared to the challenge of making the heavens on the other (as though he himself was in a position to make them), which would be harder or more complex to make ... Not that God found either one more or less 'difficult' to make Audzubillah. So I hope this concern for blasphemy is henceforth removed.
Answer to this is on its way. Sorry, have something else come up.
OK. I am back.
The verses you quoted are related to difference in youth and old age (weaker) state of man.
Surely Allah said he created man to be the best in his form. (Verse 4)
But when old age and weaker state takes over (verse 5), even though man may not be able to perform as many good deeds during old age, his previously recorded good deeds will still make him eligible for reward. (verse 6 and onward)
Hence, man is still the best creation in its form as Allah said. Its the old age and weaker physical state which is referred to lower level.
Also Ashraful-Makhlooqat is a term used based on Quranic verse praising, respecting human and its creation.
The creation of Adam from clay and the verse 38:72 is an open example of it.
038.072 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
Allah goes on to order angels and Iblis to fall ye down!
*Can you tell me who except human, had the privilege to be "breathed Almighty's spirit"? *
We are talking about its creation; and good deeds or bad deeds, choice no choice, desire no desire...... are not even in to picture yet!!!!!
I am not qualified to answer this question in red. You need first to explain what you mean by "breathed Almighty's spirit" before I can answer. As for best form ... again I am not convinced of you explanation: Please read Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
[quote]
(Verily, We created man in the best form.) This is the subject being sworn about, and it is that Allah created man in the best image and form, standing upright with straight limbs that He beautified.
ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَـهُ أَسْفَلَ سَـفِلِينَ
(Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low.) meaning, to the Hellfire. This was said by Mujahid, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Al-Hasan, Ibn Zayd and others. Then after this attractiveness and beauty, their destination will be to the Hell-fire if they disobey Allah and belie the Messengers. This is why Allah says,
(Save those who believe and do righteous deeds.) Some have said,
ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَـهُ أَسْفَلَ سَـفِلِينَ
(Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low.) "This means decrepit old age.'' This has been reported from Ibn Abbas andIkrimah. `Ikrimah even said, "Whoever gathers the Qur'an (i.e., he memorizes it all), then he will not be returned to decrepit old age.'' Ibn Jarir preferred this explanation. Even if this was the meaning, it would not be correct to exclude the believers from this, because some of them are also overcome by the senility of old age. Thus, the meaning here is what we have already mentioned (i.e., the first view), which is similar to Allah's saying,
[/quote]
So you see Ibn Kathir is the basis for my understanding ... and what I had not noticed earlier he (RA) actually stipulates a meaning for BEST form as:
It is my understanding that he Iblis was right in his justification at least logically, he was very logical in his resistance for elsewhere he makes mention that the human is made from dust which is low where he is made from** fire which reaches for the sky**.
[/quote]
Peace Psyah!
You seem to agree with this so called logic that fire is better than dust.
What logic is that?
“Which reaches for the sky”… What does that mean?
We know Allah made Adam from clay, he must have found clay better instead of fire to make Adam from it.
Besides, Allah threw his claim out the window (figuratively speaking) didn’t he?
Hence, can we not say clay is better?
Fire cannot hurt clay but fire can be put out by clay/dust!
In fact clay is used to contain fire in pit-hole.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
What he failed to realise was that he appointed his rationale higher than the instruction of God.
[/quote]
Yes, that is what I also said.
Similarly I never said ( I am repeating here again and again) that being proud is not the problem.
Its not following the order which is the problem And hence, I never said man should not follow orders.
All I have been saying that being proud and be thankful and following orders are not mutually exclusive.
**I do not know for what reason Allah would want us to feel low of ourselves when Allah himself ordered his other creation including the highest level of Jinn to bow to human- at the time of creation, please remember this fact.
Its a made up thinking by some people and nonsense.
**
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
If Allah (SWT) orders us to prostrate to a rabbit tomorrow would you not do it? For sure a true believer will look past the shortfalls of rabbits and prostrate to it on the grounds that it was expressly instructed by Allah (SWT). Disobedience to a direct instruction from Allah (SWT) is as good as Shirk.
[/quote]
First of all we are talking about what happened and not what could be or would be.
So lets get agreed on what happened first.
Secondly, Surely he can do whatever he pleases to but …Do you really think Allah would ask us to prostrate to rabbit?
With same token human should bow to a statue if Allah ask us to! Would you agree?
You know you made up the question for no basis though.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
Knowledge is not something innate to our physical make-up, rather it is a function of the 1-soul that is breathed into the form. The order to bow to man in my understanding is 2- only becauseman was made vicegerent. More specifically the**3-**Best of Creation i.e. Muhammad (SAW) would be in that form.
[/quote]
1- And you are asking me below what do I mean by breathing in to???
2- So isn’t this a prove that man is better than all creations?
Why would he chose man to be vicegerent?
In order to choose his vicegerent, he had to choose the best of all his creations.
3- I hope you do not get so disappointed, Adam as the father of mankind was asked to be bowed to.
Off course nothing to lower the respect of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) here in my statement.
Allah did not say in his verse we created the prophet (SAW) in the best form. It was a general statemet for ‘insaan’.
‘Ulemas’ of certain sect made it up.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
Is it not therefore the premise that those humans who go to hell are not better than angels?Or am I missing something here?
[/quote]
I think we need to stop comparing angels with human here once for all.
Angels have no brain, no choices, no sense of feelings pleasure or sorrow, no sense of pain or comfort. They just do what they do like robots.
So no comment/answer on your question since you are asking something which cannot be done.
The word used was ‘form’. One can extend it anyway one wish to.
And by the way spirit does not sit in air, it needs a form,structure or shape.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
This is a different discussion whether the mind is the brain … Obviously I have reservations.
[/quote]
OK.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
We are judged on the intentions of our actions. Having the pride caused Iblis to fail, he took pride in his ability to choose which was better to prostrate to Allah (SWT) or to a mud form. His pride in his ability of discernment caused him to error because all he had to do was realise WHO was instructing him to do that. i.e. Submit to Allah (SWT) through pleasure and pain through rational and irrational … just submit.
[/quote]
The answer is above and in many of my posts before.
Its not the pride, its, disobeying due to pride.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
On this merit it is clear Iblis followed the hedonisitic mindset and failed to simply submit.
[/quote]
Well, you are trying to use hedonism word with iblis just to make it look like a bad thing.
I thought we were done with pleasure no pleasure concept and were focusing on if man is the best of all creations.
Hence no further comments on this one.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
All things finite are equally finite before The Infinite, but it does not mean that all finite things are equal amongst each other. The question is asked of man to ponder that if man were to makeif he could on the one hand other men and compared to the challenge of making the heavens on the other (as thoughhe himself was in a position to make them), which would be harder or more complex to make … Not that God found either one more or less ‘difficult’ to make Audzubillah. So I hope this concern for blasphemy is henceforth removed.
[/quote]
So you mean Allah is asking man which one would be difficult for man to make, human or heaven?
You lost me there my brother.
Why would Allah ask a man to compare those at all?
When was the lat time man made heaven or another man?
The question is asked of those who denied resurrection.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
I am not qualified to answer this question in red. You need first to explain what you mean by “breathed Almighty’s spirit” before I can answer.
[/quote]
Just as it says, please refer to actual words and its translation.
[quote="“psyah, post:34, topic:204708"”]
As for best form … again I am not convinced of you explanation: Please read Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
(Verily, We created man in the best form.) This is the subject being sworn about, and it is that Allah created man in the best image and form, standing upright with straight limbs that He beautified.
ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَـهُ أَسْفَلَ سَـفِلِينَ
(Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low.) meaning, to the Hellfire. This was said by Mujahid, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Al-Hasan, Ibn Zayd and others. Then after this attractiveness and beauty, their destination will be to the Hell-fire if they disobey Allah and belie the Messengers. This is why Allah says,
(Save those who believe and do righteous deeds.) Some have said,
ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَـهُ أَسْفَلَ سَـفِلِينَ
(Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low.) "This means decrepit old age.‘’ This has been reported from Ibn Abbas and Ikrimah. `Ikrimah even said, "Whoever gathers the Qur’an (i.e., he memorizes it all), then he will not be returned to decrepit old age.‘’ Ibn Jarir preferred this explanation. Even if this was the meaning, it would not be correct to exclude the believers from this, because some of them are also overcome by the senility of old age. Thus, the meaning here is what we have already mentioned (i.e., the first view), which is similar to Allah’s saying,
So you see Ibn Kathir is the basis for my understanding … and what I had not noticed earlier he (RA) actually stipulates a meaning for BEST form as:
a) Standing upright
b) Beautified
[/quote]
What I mentioned in my above post was based on what is he second paragraph.
What is the problem in accepting that Allah mentioned he created man in best form,make, mould or statue? (strict meaning)
One can add anything after that. That’s fine, but the meaning is what is said in arabic. (form, shape, stature)
And the concept of old age is mentioned in other places as well to be considered low. Hence we agree on it.
I don't think we really do agree entirely on this and I don't need to discuss this further my argument is that the human is not inherently best, but only best if we are good, otherwise we are worst cos we should know better.
If you look at Ibn Kathir (RA) explanation he prefers one version over the other ... I can but agree with that.
I don't think we really do agree entirely on this and I don't need to discuss this further my argument is that the human is not inherently best, but only best if we are good, otherwise we are worst cos we should know better.
If you look at Ibn Kathir (RA) explanation he prefers one version over the other ... I can but agree with that.
Peace Psyah!
I would gladly agree to disagree here partially. :-)
I have given my argument in clear manner showing at the time of creation man was asked to be bowed to by the order of Almighty. Before any discussion of choices, deeds, worshiping Almighty or not.
And about Ibn Kathir, I do respect this great person but I refuse to follow one human as the ONLY leader/translator or writer of tafseer on this verse, since there are huge chances to be misguided/lost when a person follows ONE person in his/her entire life for everything in life. With the same token I am completely against of the 'Bait' custom, Imam 'worshiping', Peeri/Muridee or Sufi-ism.
Too many fake people in this world unfortunately to exploit people.
It was great as always been to discuss with you this topic.
