Peace again Psyah!
Peace respected bro diwana
I don't think we've (IntelliPhant and I ) been further misunderstood than by what you have presented above.
Most of what you have given is what has been made permissible for us ... in my view to make that what is permissible in to something as though it is 'required' to be sought as a life's purpose is critically different from taking from the permissible but indulging only on the true life's purpose.
It is not the taking or using of worldly things and gaining pleasure as a result of an action that I am saying is wrong rather it is the act of making the using of worldly things the vehicle TO GAIN pleasure which is deficient.
You talked about permissible. As if permissible should not be sought after?
if this is what you imply then why not?
Permissible is not haram.
1) Pleasure should not be a goal in life rather it should be a convenient side-effect of good action.
I do not think I said that pleasure alone should be the goal. Pleasure with condition. Condition of acknowledging where it came from, and more importantly who brought it. One must be thankful to almighty of providing the sense of pleasure.
2) We should not trust the world to deliver pleasure even though Allah (SWT) has given us the world where pleasure can be obtained. Rather we must trust Allah (SWT) to be sufficient for us.
Now this is a stretch. Who made the world? For whom this world was made?
Why these items of pleasure were made?
You will say to test us. I will say yes to test us. But how? TO keep remembering Allah when enjoy these items and not forget him being indulged in pleasure.
But not reject pleasure altogether.
You said:
Think of a situation when one's father humiliates his son, instead the son does something good for his father but it goes unacknowledged. This cycle goes on and on ... After some time if the son had been a pleasure seeker he would cease being good to his father ... if however the son had been 'submitting' then he would continue doing good regardless of the delay in pleasure.
OK. this situation has a condition. The father is 'humiliating'. The son is loving.
If son loves his father and understands his father's weakness/shortcoming then this humiliation is nothing or negligible for him. It would still make him happy that he does something good for his father. Not necessarily pleasure seeking but obtaining pleasure from loving.
There is always going to be some sort of satisfaction in making the right choice, but often the right choice comes at the price of sacrificing the pleasure of the ego.
Yes. True.
You talked about ego. Let me talk about a different concept of ego.
Hint: Id, Ego, Super-ego concepts.
I am talking about not killing the ego, but suppressing the Id by super-ego, all this time.
What you have tried to discuss (in my humble opinion)is to kill both Id and Ego altogether.
I do not like Sigmund Freud but will discuss these items sometimes. :-)
Consider that I would really love to go around giving people frights by shouting suddenly, however, even though I would be enjoying it my soul would not be fulfilled by that condition and it would wreak upon me the havoc of emptiness. This I would be sealed away from from recognising because laughing has sealed away my heart.
Not a good example at all. I never said that. Never argued for it. Don't know where did I mention such a thing in this thread?????
There are references for this world being a prison for the believer. Of course the best prisoner is the one who 'likes' to be there because he views his correction time a means to protect others ... it is a selfless pleasure in a faculty more of the consciousness than of the body ...
Yes I know somewhere it is said. But this philosophy is not true.
Man is sent on earth with dignity not humiliation. As a Naaib/Khalifa. Also Man is supposed to go back to heaven if performs good.
World is for man to enjoy, and conquer and even though it is a transient stay but its not a prison. In prison one is locked up not to get out and is supposed to be miserable or unhappy or humiliated.
We receive stimulation through our senses, the higher level of stimulation is then through intelligence, then through intuition and then through divine guidance. As these increase our physical connection to them distances. It follows that a stimulating/a pleasure in the body from divine guidance is far more superior than simply a physical sensation.
Sensual pleasures are low and when they are placed with greater importance than higher level pleasures then this is what hedonism is. It is the sanctimonious worship of physical, basic and sensual pleasures which is not what Islam is about at all.
Don't know where did this come from. Senses are also God's gifts and his creations. Why would we lower them at all. Why should we deny them?
Ever heard of masochists? ( I am sure you did). They inflict sensual pain to get 'inner' pleasure!