i say we ban all posts/threads where the intention of the person is clearly to start another useless debate on which sect is right and which wrong....
and also deal with threads that r meant to ridicule religions/religious figures....
and if all such threads deleted include even a 10% of innocent threads, i say its worth it....
banning the person, after some warnings, is also to be considered....
but, at the same time, we shud not label anyone who asks even the simplest of the questions as a DUMB person, because there might be things that u dont know but he/she knows....
i guess i am guilty of posting in sect based discussions, but i only post when either the claim being made is ridiculous, or there is a genuine discussion going on. soon as the mudslinging starts, or someone asks me to wade through a terribly designed, exclamation point riddled website, i leg it.
im a big believer in rapproachment and think that the hadith about 72 sects isnt necessarily supposed to be seen as the desired lower limit of fragmentation. to that end i try to argue, when i have the oppurtunity, that we should focus on what we have in common, which is so much more than what we dont.
there really will be no settlement of the which-is-better debate till the end of time. i guess i think we should just let Him decide. till that time, lets not waste our time and energy trying to show that either one is heretical or pagan or anything.
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*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
Its so strange.I mean how come everybody needs 'evidence' of the most obvious facts about Islam.And when those facts are placed under their noses- they still refuse to acknowledge them?
And how are these people real Muslims, if they demand or disbelief what Islam is all about.To me it's really ridiculous to go around asking others to provide proof for the most obvious truths of Islam.
btw I'm not saying it's all the people in religion forum- just some.
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In ALL aspects of life, it is the question mark, which ensures there is development and improvement in your daily life. And often it is the simplest or the most ridiculous of questions, which leads to new insights, and as such leads to better understanding of the matter at hand. And often the question mark ensures that wisdoms, lost by the work of Time and History, are retrieved for us.
And if you look at History, you will see it is this lack of the question mark that has led to the backwardness of Muslim countries with respect to science, technology, economy, philosophy, social structure (basically all aspects of daily life) as compared to the Western countries, which DID ask themselves questions.
CocoNut I agree with you.Sometimes certain questions can only be answered by faith- not scientific facts.Yet people will want ‘proof’.And I doubt they want the real ‘proof’, they want the proof that agrees with them in some sort of way.
Faisal these members who post vague or negative questions- shouldn’t there be some rules against it? For example those that are Muslims (or rather say they are) should know better.The whole point of religion forum would be to educate those that have questions.It should never be about questioning Islam I think.
little human sects or no sects- there is only one real Islam.And we have the aunthentic Hadith.We don’t need to get ourselves confused with this or that- what has been revealed in the Quran and Hadith and the Prophets’s :saw: ways is all we need to get all the truths.
Sahar02 You would know more than to believe something ridiculous somebody would say Im sure.You know about Islam- therefore if somebody was to tell you something really wrong ,you would know.Im not talking about that kind of ‘proof’.I mean if you knew something- yet despite that you -yourself asked something very silly and against Islam…questioned Islam…then that would be wrong.No?
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*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
Sahar02 You would know more than to believe something ridiculous somebody would say Im sure.You know about Islam- therefore if somebody was to tell you something really wrong ,you would know.Im not talking about that kind of 'proof'.I mean if you knew something- yet despite that you -yourself asked something very silly and against Islam....questioned Islam....then that would be wrong.No?
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I think it's wrong if you know the answer but are not willing to accept it (like, I think, Faisal was saying). But if questions are asked to gain understanding, then I think it's okay. I know about Islam, I've studied and read on my own, with friends, in classes, in all sorts of situations. And each time, by gaining and asking questions to understand someone else's perspective, I also begin to understand Islam better.
I've grown up around so many different Muslims from different backgrounds that I don't like to make assumptions about anyone's beliefs and interpretations. I also don't like to assume that just because I've learned something one way, it is a complete and thorough understanding of the Quran and Hadith. That's why I ask questions -- to see how others view these texts and from where their beliefs arise.
Now I think you have a point there.I think when people ask something really ridiculous then they should perhaps be given a warning.Esp those members who we know will never listen to other members when they are given answers to their questions.
ravage I think its always very interesting to learn more about Islam.So when I saw gs had a religion forum - it got me quite excited.Until I started seeing some of the threads.Seriously I didnt know where to start.I keep asking myself- why some people need proof for what Allah has clearly already shown to us.
NeSCio see what you said- is what I pointed out in my very first post.
You stressed the ALL , if I were you I would seriously cut that to ‘some’.Because these question marks about certain aspects of your life will get you into big trouble.If I were to ask you an orphan if he was really the son of so and so people- what proof can he give to me that he really is? And lets say he has no medical records or relatives to back him up.Just because he doesnt have that proof- does it give me any reason to go out and question him.And if I do - will that improve or develope my daily life? I dont think so.
I look at history -and I wonder what happened to us Muslims actually.Tell me if there were ever more religious people, then in the prophet’s :saw: time? People were not backward in daily like during that time.They were more ‘forward’ then us.You want to compare the scientific ,and social etc structures of Muslim countires to the West? It’s people who live in the Muslims countires.And not all of those people do everything according to Islam.So dont blame Islam for their ‘scientific’ backwardness.And what scientists want to prove and find out- it has already been revealed in the religion of islam.
Firstly life is about Islam first- then anything else such as science.It doesnt matter if Muslims countires are behind in science- what matters is they are ahead in faith.And thats what actually matters.
I think it's wrong if you know the answer but are not willing to accept it (like, I think, Faisal was saying). But if questions are asked to gain understanding, then I think it's okay. I know about Islam, I've studied and read on my own, with friends, in classes, in all sorts of situations. And each time, by gaining and asking questions to understand someone else's perspective, I also begin to understand Islam better.
I've grown up around so many different Muslims from different backgrounds that I don't like to make assumptions about anyone's beliefs and interpretations. I also don't like to assume that just because I've learned something one way, it is a complete and thorough understanding of the Quran and Hadith. That's why I ask questions -- to see how others view these texts and from where their beliefs arise.
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The first part of your answer- yes I agree with you.Questions are asked to gain understanding.Questions should never be asked to question the religion itself.
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I also don't like to assume that just because I've learned something one way, it is a complete and thorough understanding of the Quran and Hadith.
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I disagree.If I had learned something and it had been shown to me from Quran and hadith- I would not doubt as to whether it was correct or not.I would know what I learned was right.If somebody was to contradict me- I would not doubt about my knowledge - I would instead show them that it was right.
This is the whole point of my post.Yes keep an open mind when others ask questions.But never doubt what you have learned from Quran and Hadith.
There are not a million ways as to how others view these 'texts'.If Allah has revealed them to us- there is only the right way to interpret them.
But MQ -- who decides what is that one right way? Isn't it unfair to assume that what we know is always right just because that's how we learned first?
19:flower1:** The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. **
why not all? I guess, you are stating that i shud leave religion out of this all? (correct me if i’m wrong).
But if we suppose religion to be all encompassing, including those SOME aspects you are talking about, then by asking why in those aspects we automatically ask why in the religious aspect
he doesn’t have any, but…
…that doesn’t stop us asking the question if we were in a serious matter and that matter required of him to verify clearly that he is the son of so and so.
the same question can be asked of other prophets’ times: were there any more religious people among the followers of other prophets?
Perhaps our Prophet was better than others, but that doesn’t necessarily makes his true Followers better followers than other Prophets’ followers
Have I ever blamed Islam for that??? Can you point out a post in which i state clearly it’s Islam at fault? NO, i havent’. I have only blamed the Muslim and Arab countries: that is the people living in those countries. I’ve never blamed the religion as such
yes, i has…but do we know it??? NO, we do not! the only way to find out what is revealed in the Qur’an is by doing research and verifying that by reading Qur’an. Are you suggesting that all scientific knowledge inthe Qur’an is known to us? i guess not. So what is the way to find out: By reading the Qur’an and doing research/experiments
I have my doubts as to whether the *so-called *Muslim countries are ahead in faith
Nescio - I agree. We cannot presume to know or understand everything that is in the Quran and Hadith. It is only by asking questions and exploring further that we will benefit from the knowledge it contains.
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*Originally posted by Sahar02: *
Nescio - I agree. We cannot presume to know or understand everything that is in the Quran. It is only by asking questions and exploring further that we will benefit from the knowledge it contains.
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u can not understand Quran unless u understand it in the light of ahaadeeth (including the events occured at that time!)
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*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
u can not understand Quran unless u understand it in the light of ahaadeeth (including the events occured at that time!)
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AQ - I wasn't denying that. That wasn't the point of the post. But I'm editing the post above for the sake of clarity.
You’re telling me we should question ALL aspects of life.So what of the answers we already have?? The only reason you would question something we already know- is that you obviously dont believe in what is- you want it to be something else.We DONT question religion.We ask questions about it.We Dont question IT Nobody with an ounce of imaan would question ALL in my opinion.
And also do be kind enough to tell me as to how he’s going to present that proof to you? He has no proof- but you’re going to question him anyway.We would know he’s an orphan.Would not the right thing to be to admit he’s also human like us? And do something to help him? Thats development.Questioning him, when we know that his parents are dead-does not get us anywhere.Some things you cannot question, because you in a way know his situation so to speak.
Excuse me but you seem to have trouble comprehending what others say.I did not talk about other prophets.I talked about Muhammed :saw: and his followers- and compared to the present.You say that Muslim countries are left behind in science.I say that its not about countries.Its about the people and Islam.As far as Im concerned all the prophets and their followers then, were more religious then present day Muslims.So dont assume we got left behind because we didnt question everything.The people then were also human.Yet they were closer to Allah.Tell me why people who are questioning religion these days- arent like the people then.You’re telling me that the only way we can better ourselves is if we question ALL?
Do point out where I said -this thread was anything about Arab countries?Please do so -Im having trouble finding it.So you’re blaming the Muslims and not the countries?What makes you think they are left behind because they have not questioned ALL aspects of life?What ‘proof’ do you have that those people got left behind ,because they didnt question everything about life?
No thats ironic.You’re telling me we don’t know what has been revealed in the Quran -unless we do research and find proof???The word ‘revealed’ does mean something.We know what has been revealed in the Quran- because it has been revealed. Im telling you that Allah has given us the Quran and hadith.Allah has given us all the proof we need.Going out and doing research for the sake of science is alright- but in no way can you say you’re doing it to prove whats not in the Quran.Do your research and experiments- but dont question Islam- thats what Im saying.
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*Originally posted by Sahar02: *
Nescio - I agree. We cannot presume to know or understand everything that is in the Quran and Hadith. It is only by asking questions and exploring further that we will benefit from the knowledge it contains.
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For the 50th time ,Im saying dont question Islam.Ask questions about it - but dont question the religion itself.I never said people cant ask questions about it.
We will not benefit further if we 'explore further'.We will only benefit if we completely are able to understand the Quran and Hadith.Its not about going out and exploring to prove that Quran is right.Its about understanding whats in the Quran.
The whole point of this thread was that people should not question what is in the Quran ,and which is clear to us.To do so is wrong.And it will never get the questioner anywhere.
Thank you Anwaar.Thats a perfect Aayah to prove my point.This is what Im talking about.Allah has given us all the proof we need.And if people were to open their minds and hearts to it- they would see it.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by armughal: *
i say we ban all posts/threads where the intention of the person is clearly to start another useless debate on which sect is right and which wrong....
and also deal with threads that r meant to ridicule religions/religious figures....
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I think there is still a Moratorium in place in Religion forum, exactly to stop such sectarian bickering. But there are some members whose staple is to keep indulging in these discussions. It seems their *khaana paani is not hazam till they have posted some garbage about other faiths and sects, criticized the fundamental essense of Islamic rulings, created doubts in the minds of the reader by vague and negative statements and in general made a mess of every discusison. In addition, every few days they will start a discussion on sectarian issues "purely for educational purposes".. knowing fully well that in this Religion forum, all such discussions always end up in gaali galoch. No one side is innocent, as we have idiotic posters from all sides.
Until the mental age of our posters does not increase by about 15 years, my personal view is we should close down this forum. It is only uneducating the masses and contributing to the fitna. Then again, this is just my personal view point, and is probably not very practical, because then these same people (who probably have no lives) will just take their mental garbage to some other forum on Gupshup and puke there.
Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see.
During the course of my presentation preperation last week which was on 'Religion is BUT an opium for masses' I had to study this 'issue of verifiability' thouroughly and i would like to point out one or two things here. Though before that i must say that all who have questions and queries regarding Islam, sometimes over do it and like MQ said they question the basics of it which is a disappointment. Islam asks its followers to have faith and in some occassions 'blind faith'. But on the other hand it also invites people to study and explore it with an 'open mind' NOT when your mind has taken a definite position that its not possible. If you have taken such a position already about a thing in the first place, it is most likely thousands of proofs wont suffice to remove that doubt.
There were thousands of questions iniitally before Science stepped in and sub-consciously or consciously proved many beliefs and concepts given in Quran. There are many beliefs which seem to defy logic to a common man but initially the above mentioned facts were a source of ambiguity as well before science proved them. Scholars, Ulema all can help you but its YOUR heart and mind that need to beleive, Knowledge is out there, you need to learn it.
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