It is sad that non-Shias could only think in terms of rulers and monarchies. ll.
funny u say that 12ers have formed dynasties and monarchies throughout their history as well much like ummayyads
The discussion was about Imams, the heirs of prophet. No Imam ever strived to be a ruler or monarch.
Yes, ordinary people have had good and bad dynasties, depending on how good and bad those individuals were.
In contrast, the leaders of Ahle Sunnat are anyone who succeeded in occupying the government. Ahle Sunnat have no idea of a leader who works for people alone, and does not care about his own rule.
but i am more sympathetic to them than muawiyahs of today ( musharrafs, zardaris , bhuttos etc)
Taliban are the enemies of Islam, just like khawarij. You made the comparison yourself.
On one hand you pretend to support Imam Ali against Muawiya, and on the other hand you support people who killed Imam Ali.
Taliban are the enemies of Islam, just like khawarij. You made the comparison yourself. On one hand you pretend to support Imam Ali against Muawiya, and on the other hand you support people who killed Imam Ali.
no body supported hazrat ali nor hazrat amir muavia. as it was a political conflict rather than relegious. both have their own opinion and acted according to their judgement.
may allah rest their souls in peace
no body supported hazrat ali nor hazrat amir muavia. as it was a political conflict rather than relegious. both have their own opinion and acted according to their judgement.
It was a political conflict but it involved very huge religious figures, including thousands of companions of Prophet. Hence it was more than just another political conflict.
Besides, that "political" conflict showed the extremely low character of Muawiyah and very high moral character of Imam Ali.
In this conflict, Imam Ali always took moral decisions and showed why he was heir to Prophet. On the other hand, Muawiyah used every scheme he could use to defeat Muslim caliph. His struggle was a personal one and not for Islam, because at his death he made his son his successor, and thus attempted to bring monarchy among Muslims instead of khilafat.
But I understand why you guys have to support Muawiyah's rebellion against the true caliph. After all, you took your Islam from Muawiyah. So even though you can not justify his crimes against Islam's caliph, you can atleast play dumb and ignorant.
Taliban are the enemies of Islam, just like khawarij. You made the comparison yourself. On one hand you pretend to support Imam Ali against Muawiya, and on the other hand you support people who killed Imam Ali.
you have serious problems in comprehension, or you are simply trying to sidetrack the issue by quoting out of context.
who ever said anything about SUPPORTING khawarij ?
wrt to Ali b abitalib even the most viciously anti-12er groups dont have the same opinion of him as the khawarij.So even though ideologically talibs and khawarij may seem the same but there are points of difference within them and that is their attitude towards sahaba esp uthman and ali.Also note that khawarij had a very poor opinion of uthman unlike talibs today.
so dont try to oversimply the issue and play with words
no body supported hazrat ali nor hazrat amir muavia. as it was a political conflict rather than relegious. both have their own opinion and acted according to their judgement.
may allah rest their souls in peace
meray bhai
it was a conflict predicted in hadith , its the source of islamic law ...how is it MERELY political.By this you are essentially saying that both ali and muawiyah fought for worldly power ! even though hadith of Prophet are EXPLICITLY clear that ali would not do that in his wars.
you are falling into the trap set by rafida debating on non-issues like first second civil war.
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
^U were cornered so ur just rambling, khawarij didnt have sects until very late, as far as tafkir is concerned thats a seperate issue.And for khawarij better than syrians check the khutbah of ali in nahjul balagah
I talked about sects, not about when those sects were created.
If I have concerns then they are based on legitimate reasons. I am amazed about how people could support enemies of Islam, and murderers and rapists of Muslims.
Why don't you quote Imam Ali's khutbah?
Your analogy was wrong, khawarij are not IDENTICAL in ideology to talibs
Again who is supporting talibs ? , I told u previously they are descended from bandits created by munafiq pak fauj and their foreign backers.As far as I am concerned I wish the frogfoots and hinds would have crushed all afghan resistence back in the 80s.But they are better than the munafiq pakistani army and the civilian establishment who used and abused the talibs and now r dumping them after they did the dirty work for them.
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
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Your analogy was wrong, khawarij are not IDENTICAL in ideology to talibs
[/quote]
The analogy is very true. There are many people who see the ideology of hatred and kufr started by khawarij, and continued by Wahhabis and their Taliban.
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But they are better than the munafiq pakistani army and the civilian establishment
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That's what the problem is. You don't seem to know that these khawarij have killed thousands of innocent Pakistani Muslims, and they justify killing anyone who disagrees with them in anyway.
And it is treason if you think they are better than Pakistan.
About your claim that khawarij were better than Syrians, you are basing it on Imam Ali's statement not to fight khawarij but Syrians.
It is understandable. Muawiyah was a bigger enemy of Imam Ali and Ahle Bait than khawarij at that time.
This is not the case anymore today. Followers of Muawiyah, the Ahle Sunnat, are no more enemy of Ahle Bait as khwarij of today, the Taliban and Wahhabis.
When Imam Ali said that Muslims should not fight khawarij after him then it was not a universal truth, but something related to situation of time. Otherwise he hismelf wouldnt have fought them.
This is what the problem is with traditionalists like you. You people follow a hadith or tradition of Rasool and other Sahabas, withouth regard to WHY they said that and the situation of the time.
This is the main reason of your going astray.
We follow Ahle Bait, for whom Prophet said that Ahle Bait are equal in substance and weight as Quran, the Word of Allah.
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
^bottomline is u dont FOLLOW what ali b abitalib said thats why u r a sect deviated from mainstream islam, not like ali's faithful followers and supporters.
if followers of muawiyah are ahle sunnat then why do ahle sunnat today acknowledge ali as a pious caliph and not muawiyah
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
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The analogy is very true
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so talib and khawarij are identical ? lol ...show me how
so communist and fascists both had concentration camps and absolute govts then they are IDENTICAL in ideology ?
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
[QUOTE]
This is what the problem is with traditionalists like you. You people follow a hadith or tradition of Rasool and other Sahabas, withouth regard to WHY they said that and the situation of the time.
This is the main reason of your going astray.
We follow Ahle Bait, for whom Prophet said that Ahle Bait are equal in substance and weight as Quran, the Word of Allah.
[/QUOTE]
u disregard sayings of ahle bait yet u claim to follow them ? did u inherit any books DIRECTLY written by ahle bait ? where do u get the knowledge from them
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
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Otherwise he hismelf wouldnt have fought them.
[/QUOTE]
he said AFTER ME , dont fight khawarij ....and Hasan b ali also didnt fight khawarij (even though muawiyah tried to persuade him) as he knew that was a waste of time and energy
^bottomline is u dont FOLLOW what ali b abitalib said
Bottom line is that you get Islam from enemies of Islam like Muawiyah, and that explains your in Islam. You guys call Muawiyah a traitor, and then go get Islam from the same traitor.
And this is why you DON'T get what Imam Ali said and what Prophet said. Imam Ali fought khawarij and khawarij killed Imam Ali, and yet you consider them worthy of your support.
About khawarij and Taliban being identical. Again, they are not the same people. But there are some ideas which are common between the two of them. For example, both consider anyone disagreeing with them as kafir.
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u disregard sayings of ahle bait yet u claim to follow them ? did u inherit any books DIRECTLY written by ahle bait ?
[/quote]
Did you get any hadith book DIRECTLY written by the Prophet?
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he said AFTER ME , dont fight khawarij
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That's a dumb analysis. He did not say NEVER fight khawarij after me, even after thousands of years.
BTW, I don't consider you dumb personally. It's actually the hatred and animosity towards the Ahle Bait, and following the enemies of Ahle Bait like Muawiyah and Abu Sufyan, that make you use dumb arguments.
Prophet told us not to leave Ahle Bait, because they are the guarantee that Muslims will stay on Allah's Path. And people like you and your Taliban khawarij are the obvious examples of what Prophet wanted Muslims to avoid.
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
Typical 12er emotional propoganda "you are a enemy of ahle bait etc" when they are cornered.
you have proven that u r only interested in following your own interpretation of islam and cudnt care less for words of ali ba bitalib.Nor can u distinguish between talibs and khawarij of that time.
you can call me admirer of muawiyah all you want, but most posters who have spent some time on this forum could be able to bear witness to my animosity towards him and most of his clan.
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
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Did you get any hadith book DIRECTLY written by the Prophet?
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no , and neither do you so stop acting as if you alone own the ahle bait and Prophet.
Re: Peace Treaty between Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Muavia Bin ibi Sufiyan
**
[QUOTE]
who was the first suicide bomber (favorite Taliban strategy to go to Hell) in the history of Islam? Ibn Muljim, a KHARIJI who killed Imam Ali (AS).
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ur still confused , look at my communist and fascist comparison ...u are comparing apples with oranges**
you have proven that u r only interested in following your own interpretation of islam and cudnt care less for words of ali ba bitalib.Nor can u distinguish between talibs and khawarij of that time.
Well you proved it to yourself only. Like I said, Imam Ali asked Imam Hasan not to fight khawarij AT THAT TIME. At other times, he fought khawarij himself.
Can you deny that?
[quote]
you can call me admirer of muawiyah all you want, but most posters who have spent some time on this forum could be able to bear witness to my animosity towards him and most of his clan.
[/quote]
Your animosity means NOTHING, if in the end you follow Muawiyah and his clan themselves for getting Islam.
sirf zubani jama-kharch he.