with Harsha Bhogle, Aamir Sohail, Osman Samiuddin and Shaharyar Khan
‘PCB has failed as a management’ | Time Out | Cricinfo Talk | Cricinfo.com](http://www.cricinfo.com/talk/content/multimedia/453077.html)
HB: Was Imran Khan a dictator as captain?
AS: He was. But everyone keeps talking about Imran as the best leader Pakistan had and what they don’t realise was when Imran was captain his cousin was the chairman of the PCB and another cousin was the chief selector. He had all the power and the players knew if they would get into something fishy they would be thrown out of the team.
Aamir Sohail ko Imran Khan sey sakht mirchein lagi huey hain. He always speaks out against him. Maybe he is just a bit jealous. At the end of the day it is all about results and the fact is Pakistan cricket’s golden period was when Imran was at the helm. Imran knew how to get the best out of average players like Aamir Sohail. dictator or not kuch log like Aamir sirif dandey kee zaban hee samajhtey hain
Imran should probably sing:* tujhe mirchi lagi to mein kya karoun? …hahahaa*
---------------------------------------------------------
Harsha Bhogle: Welcome to Time Out with Harsha. Today we’re discussing the highly contentious, debatable and passionate issue of Pakistan cricket and we will be talking about the player infighting, leadership, what is happening to the cricket environment in Pakistan, whether all the talk of match-fixing is valid and whether there should be more transparency - all the things the Pakistan cricket lovers have been waiting to have discussed. It is a nation that evokes admiration, a nation that that leaves people perplexed and one that people look up to for the next big talent in the game. We have with us Osman Samiuddin who has his pulse on all that happens in Pakistan cricket and Aamer Sohail who has held possibly every job in Pakistan cricket and understands the playing as well the administrative side.
Osman, you have been following cricket for a while, is there a sense of déjà vu over what is happening in Pakistan right now?
Osman Samiuddin: There is a feeling of déjà vu in the sense that something keeps happening all the time. I have often said to people that covering cricket here is like covering a war. I was lucky that I started off during what was a slightly stable period of Pakistan cricket with Inzamam-ul-Haq and Bob Woolmer in charge but since The Oval Test in 2006 something has kept on happening. I don’t think this particular case is similar to many cases in the past. There are parallels, but the details are a bit different from what has been going on in the past few years.
HB: Aamer, when you were playing cricket for Pakistan there was the captaincy dispute, then there was the whole Salim Malik episode. What is your sense on why this happens in Pakistan on such a periodic basis?
Aamer Sohail: To answer it in one line, I would say lack of responsibility when it comes to the players and the management. If they start taking responsibility Pakistan cricket will be free from these controversies.
HB: As an eight-year old I had my heroes and I looked up to them. What happens to the little kid who is crazy about cricket in Pakistan? There are so many cricket lovers in Pakistan who look up to their side and want them to do well - how does this affect them? Do they feel let down?
OS: One of the things about Pakistan, generally, and the cricket fans here is that they are very resilient people. Cricket is so much a part of everyday life here that for every fallen idol like a Malik or a Rana Naved Ul Hasan or a Shoaib Akhtar, there are still people who grow crazy for a Mohammad Aamer or an Umar Akmal. People keep coming out and capturing the imagination here. In India and other countries you definitely have heroes but in Pakistan we have a bit more cynicism ingrained in us so we don’t ever treat someone like a flawless, hero-type figure; we always are aware of the faults people have in them so in that sense the little kid on the street might just be happy that Afridi is back and he can do something or there is a Aamer to look forward to. It hurts for a while but people get over it.
HB: You used a very interesting word here - resilient. It’s almost as if being resilient is in our culture because anything could happen tomorrow. We are always living in chaos, so I think it is a key point that you make, that you have to inherently be resilient.
Aamer, when we first heard about the bans, my first reaction was that bans are a very serious thing and a very stringent punishment and there must be something that we do not know. Was that the view is Pakistan well? Is there something that we do not know because on available evidence this seems like very serous stuff …
AS: You and I know that it very difficult to prove such allegations. You have got to be Sherlock Holmes to be able to do such a thing. What I have gathered is that the PCB is just blaming their misconduct on the players. They have failed as a management and just to cover that up they are blaming the players and saying there were factions in the team. If there were factions in the team it was due to lack of management. If the power was with the players then it was due to the weakness of the management.
HB: The world looks at our part of the world differently, perhaps more so Pakistan so the moment these two words “match-fixing”, everyone says: there we go again. I actually think there is no match-fixing you have to go all the way and say its not there. If you leave it like you have now then its like saying we have something to hide.
AS: I think the concerns you are showing is absolutely right but the concerns you are showing over whatever bad news you are getting from Pakistan cricket is because of the failure of the management. If we have a strong management who know how to run modern-day cricket, these controversies will not erupt. If you give responsibilities to each individual and tell them they are there not just to play cricket but to behave as ambassadors of Pakistan cricket and if the players are made to understand this then no controversy would erupt. Professional management is what is required in Pakistan cricket.
OS: Aamer, when you were playing, that was time when we heard a lot about factionalism within the Pakistani side. Was that a case of over-blown and bad reporting or was it a case of friction between 11 men from different backgrounds, something that was bound to happen, or was it worse than that?
AS: We had our problems but one thing about the team at that time was whenever we took the field we tried to win for Pakistan. When I was part of the team we had so many different administrators who had different ideas on how to run Pakistan cricket. That is why you heard stories of infighting within the team and frequent changes of captain. That will not work. If you have seven or eight captains in the side there will be strong differences of opinion. You needed a very strong man to run the cricket affairs. Unfortunately it has been a long time since we had [strong] leadership in the PCB.
HB: Osman, you can’t really brush all this infighting under the carpet can you, because people are coming out in the open and making these statements…
OS: Absolutely not. I agree with Aamer that the management has been bad but at some level the players should also take responsibility of their actions and words. Words are perhaps not used as loosely anywhere else as they are in Pakistan where you can make a statement and get away with it and no one will really crucify you for it. Just from covering the team and speaking to players it is clear there are problems within the team. Shoaib Malik has been accused of being at the centre of many such problems and there has been groupism. It is not something that just happened on the Australia tour but it has been building up for at least a year since Malik was removed from captaincy.
AS: Osman there has to be something about to Shoaib, there must have been some evidence for if they are telling a player in the prime of his career that they are not going to be seeing him for a year, if I were Shoaib, I would have asked for something [to back the ban up].
OS: The flip side of all this is that none of the players have appealed so far. There has been a statement from Malik and Rana which involves considering some legal action. The thing is PCB has taken some action but if you are taking such action then you have to be a lot more transparent about it. You have to be absolutely clear and open about what you have done and why you have done it. That is what is causing the problem: people don’t know the nature of charges against Malik or Rana or Yousuf or Younis. They only know vague charges of indiscipline and morale coming down. I am willing to give the PCB the benefit of doubt that they have done what they have done but they have to come out and show everyone what procedure they have followed and why.
HB: Aamer the feeling in some parts of the world is that in some months there will a new head of the PCB and he will say: all is forgiven and the boys can come back and perhaps that is why they are not appealing…
AS: The reason why the players are not appealing because they have not been given the reasons [behind the action against them]. The last person to be given any reason was Malik and the letter he received had nothing related to match-fixing. So I don’t know where the PCB is taking Pakistan cricket.
HB: What you are saying is revealing because in most forms of justice you will be given a letter stating the reasons for your punishment and then only can you be punished.
AS: I agree. When Malik was removed as captain the reason he was given was that players were not happy with him. I was part of the cricket board and I said that if players are not happy with him you need to stop [them] here. If you remove him as captain it means you are encouraging player power and we will soon see four or five captains in a year because these players will not stop here and will keep blackmailing the board. And eventually that is what happened. So whatever is happening in Pakistan cricket is because the management is very week and they do not know what to do. I don’t think these players have committed huge crimes. If they have, it is the PCB that is responsible, not the players.
HB: In India cricket is independent of government action so cricket has been lucky that they have not had to go to the government apart from getting foreign exchange clearances or as is the case now with security. Having seen where Indian hockey is gone, my view is bureaucracy cannot make movies and bureaucracy cannot run sport. My feeling is that it goes right to the top: you cannot have a patron who is President or someone who the government appoints and can change at their whim. Is it possible that that structure can change and the PCB can get autonomy?
AS: I think it is possible. Even though the patron has the right to appoint the chief of the PCB, I feel he should have a committee of ex-captains or ex-chairmens who can advise him the sort of personality Pakistan cricket needs at that time to take charge. You need a chairman who has majored in marketing. You need to bring in money. At times you might need someone like a dictator, who is can put things in place and bring in discipline.
HB: Was Imran Khan a dictator as captain?
AS: He was. But everyone keeps talking about Imran as the best leader Pakistan had and what they don’t realise was when Imran was captain his cousin was the chairman of the PCB and another cousin was the chief selector. He had all the power and the players knew if they would get into something fishy they would be thrown out of the team.
HB: We get the feeling from afar that there is a zamindar (landlord) at the helm who is issuing a farmaan (diktat). And after a while the zamindar goes away and a new one comes and says mera farmaan alag hai, main alag karoonga (this is a new diktat and I will do things differently). So is Pakistan cricket stuck with different zamindars and different farmaans?
OS: That is probably a fairly correct analogy. The President being the patron of the board is not such a bad thing but [what is crucial] is the powers he has. If you are allowing him and him only to choose the President then there is a problem there. Presidents have a lot of other issues to deal with that are more pressing than that of the chairman of the cricket board. If you give that kind of leeway to a patron then it will be a political decision at the end of the day because of the way politics is run in this country. The other thing is: **what power do you give the chairman? Why is he so all-powerful in the PCB? Should you not make him a more symbolic personality with not too many decision-making powers and then have a chief executive running the board? ****I spoke to Air Marshall (retired) Noor Khan who is a legendary administrator here in Pakistan. He has handled the PIA, the PCB, the PHF and is renowned as a legend is ports administration. One of the things he said is that it is crucial you have someone as the chief executive because that is the position that will run your board and team and bring you the money. These are the things Pakistan need to worry about and not who the patron or the chairman is. They need to devolve that power a little lower down. **
HB: Aamer, in what seems to be chaos and muddle, how does Pakistan produce its cricketers? Normally there is a system to do this but Pakistan seems to revel in almost not having a system and guys just come out of the blue. Here we are thinking about the future of Pakistan cricket and suddenly Umar Akmal arrives and we think: wow, this guy can bat. Suddenly there is Aamer who comes and you say: wow, this kid can bowl. You have two potential stars in them; where does all this talent come from?
AS: Cricket is big in Pakistan just like it is in India and every kid wants to play this game. Natural talent just keeps coming into Pakistan cricket and the international community feels that Pakistan cricket has a future. But I am very worried that life will become more difficult and parents will tell their kids: we don’t want you to play cricket because there is no money in it. Currently in Pakistan cricket, there is no money in first-class cricket. Players only make money when they play for Pakistan and that too for at least half a decade. That is when they have a lifestyle. We haven’t done anything to make playing cricket a career. Even if someone cannot make it to the national side he should be able to have a decent lifestyle when he retires from first-class cricket. We haven’t done anything about that. I worry that people will stop their kids from playing cricket and that is where the real test for the administrators starts. Let the system and not a particular individual run Pakistan cricket. Put a system and place and let the chairman take the day-to-day decisions.
HB: Aamer are you optimistic about Pakistan’s cricketing future? Or are you worried or perhaps even downright pessimistic?
AS: I am worried but at the same time I am optimistic that Pakistan cricket will get back on track. There is no doubt about that. HB: Thank you Aamer. The one truth we know is that the world needs cricketers from Pakistan to come up and the Pakistan cricket should not be allowed to drift away.
And we are very delighted now that we are joined by Sharyar Khan who charmed India when he came here in 1999. I thought I would ask you a couple of things about the current situation in Pakistan cricket because while you were at the helm [of the PCB] you undertook a potentially volatile tour to India in 1999 that is remembered even today, but even more so, in 2004 -2006 when Pakistan and India had close cricketing ties. Does it bother you what is happening in Pakistan cricket right now and is there a solution?
Shaharyar Khan: Yes it does bother me. The atmosphere that we had in 1999 is not dissimilar to the background that we have now after [the] Mumbai [terror attacks]. But when we got to India we were royally received not only by the cricket establishment but by the people also. You remember what happened in [the] Chennai [Test]. I am disappointed we are not able to recreate that atmosphere.
HB: What is the solution to what is happening in Pakistan cricket right now? SK: I think it is very unfortunate. Unfortunately our own people who do not understand this complex game of cricket tend to jump to conclusions. They were the first to suggest there might be some match-fixing. If your own parliamentarians are saying this it is very difficult for the board to counter an accusation that is made out on the air. There is a lack of maturity.
HB: Is there a solution to this though? If the head of the PCB is appointed by the government and then he appoints the selectors and the captain, it almost becomes a governmental, bureaucratic way of running things. That depends far too much on the individual occupying the seat…
SK: What is badly required is for the board to show commitment and discipline. They should come down hard on player power and punish the individuals who have staryed like Afridi and Kamran Akmal. No action was taken while they were there. Even now the accusations that have been made against them have not been given to the press and I am not sure if they have been given to the players. We are much in the dark and we need discipline and a firm hand to deal with people straying from the narrow part.
HB: Thanks for that Mr. Khan.
Osman, does the solution to Pakistan cricket lie in finding an almost benevolent head like Shaharyar Khan?
OS: I think so. If you look back at his time, he was the Chairman and he had a very active CEO in Ramiz Raja. That system worked for Pakistan because you had someone like Ramiz who was in touch with modern cricket and he is generally quite diplomatic and he knows how the world works. And then you had a stable, patriarchal head in Shaharyar Khan.
That period between 2003 and 2005-06 was probably the period when Pakistan cricket was most stable. Shaharyar Khan decided to have one captain in Inzamam-ul-haq and he stuck with him through thick and thin. He had trouble with players like Shoaib Akhtar but he managed to pick his way through that without too many problems and that was because he had guys like Ramiz helping him out; he had Aamer as Chief Selector at one point. If you go back to that kind of system and have the right people in place then who knows? Its not that people are not there in Pakistan to sort this out, it’s just that you have to put them in place. I don’t think this administration can serve much more purpose. We are led to believe they are not very popular with the ICC and I don’t think in these trying times anyone will come to Pakistan for a while. I don’t think these are the men who need to run the board. Sad as it sounds you perhaps need to do something about the administration and bring in some new personnel to take it forward.
HB: We look forward Osman, to the day you write a piece about lot of talent coming up in Pakistan cricket and about a smooth transition. Here in India we look at Pakistan with a mixture of admiration and envy and wonder how they are producing fast bowlers and we aren’t. I think there is a grudging admiration and it is good for worlds cricket if they keep throwing up great talent.