Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imam

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

@Texan_Dude

WSalaam brother Ibne Sadique, lets look at the quran ayat that you quoted above:
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority*; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.* 4:59]
Please read the text highlighted in red. It clearly states Obey Alalh SWT, his messenger and those who are in authority…it does not say anywhere obey who are in authority conditionally… Furthermore it says, the following:
and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4:59]
Personally to me, it clearly means if there is a dispute on any matter we need to refer to Allah SWT and Messenger… the person who has given the authority would also implement the teachings of Allah SWT and Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H…

Salaam brother Texan Dude - Thank you for your reply and great effort.

Please refer to my earlier (partily quote below)

If you read it you will note that we are commanded to obey Allah and His Messenger; this obedience is Absolute /unconditional/total.

Then we are commanded to follow those of you who are in authority (Ulul Amr ). This obedience is NOT Absolute /unconditional/total because there is a possibility of Dispute/Disagreement (and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter) we must refer it to Allah and the messenger.

After passing away of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) we have to refer to the Quran and Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him).

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4:59]

We are commanded to Follow:

1. Allah (swt) – Of course no one can have dispute with what Allah decrees.
2. The Messenger of Allah (saw) - Of course no one can have dispute with what The Messenger of Allah (saw) recommends.
3. Ulul Amr (those of you who are in authority)

Now read the following: and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter

What are we advised to do?

refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day

Note: Disputes with Ulul Amr (those of you who are in authority) are referred to ONLY Allah and the messenger.

The clearly proves my point that:

1. to obey Allah and His Messenger; this obedience is Absolute /unconditional/total.
2. we are commanded to follow those of you who are in authority (Ulul Amr ). This obedience is NOT

Absolute /unconditional/total because there is a possibility of Dispute/Disagreement

So the Ulul Amr (those of you who are in authority) not Infallible but fallible Humans and liable to make mistakes intentionally or unintentionally and to solve disputes with them we have to refer to to Allah and the messenger if we are truely believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end

Let me repeat myself again

After disappearance of 12th Imam whom do 12er Shia turn to for guidance and obedience?

Their selected marjas – No Shia can claim that his marja is infallible – This marja has to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah through the Imams – true?

No Shia has the access to any infallible Imam thus can only refer to marja for Guidance and advice.

So how can you claim that you are following infallible people? You follow marjas and ayatullahs just as much as Sunnis follow Ulemah and Muftis! And they refer to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

You as you are now have no access to any Infallible person - do you agree to that? Only Marjas and Ayatullahs and they fallible humans.

@Texan_Dude

Certainly Abu Bakr was elected by a limited Shura.
Well lets go back to Quran and Holy Prophet P.B.U.H… Following are the qualities Quran points about the personality we should obey:
Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one [76:23]
The above ayat clearly indicates the one with the authority is not a sinner… Now does Quran point out who are the pure ones?
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.[33:33]

You said:

Certainly Abu Bakr was elected by a limited Shura.

Keep reading further and note carefully what Hz. Ali(ra) said:

1. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars
2. whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.
3. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others,
4. and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims
5. Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism. Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 6

So Abu Bakr (ra) selection by limited Shura was legitimately limited to ONLY for Muhajirs and Ansars and had the seal of approval of Allah and His pleasure!

Do you really want challenge Allah (swt) on this? If so, read the above points 4 & 5 and be prepared for the consequences! And that is: “Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.”

Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one [76:23]

Now do you really believe that above ayah applies to Hz. Abu Bakr (ra)? (Keep in mind Allah (swt)’s Pleasure and Approval of Hz. Abu Bakr’s (ra) selection as the first Khalifah of the Propphet (saw)!!!

Also note that when in his last days when the Prophet (saw) could not lead the prayers he appointed Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) in his place. This is very significant as it clearly implies who the Prophet (saw) wanted to lead the Ummah after him. Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) of course