Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imam

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

@Ibn_Sadique

Please don’t assume Shia means ONLY 12er Shia. There are other sects very distinctly apart from the other.
Shias generally Hz. love Ali (ra) and his progeny to extreme giving them Divine like qualities. Literally making them Demi-gods!!!
Details can be given if asked – you know what they are,
Shias turn to Ali (ra) and other Imams for help. All these are non-righteous beliefs.
The Shias love Ali (ra) and his progeny to extreme.

Please let me quote you the following verse of Quran:

O you believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are give supreme authority (by Allah). (4:59)

The Quran verse above asks us to follow, Allah SWT, His Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H and those given the supreme authority. This means besides Allah SWT and Prophet there are some personalities that were given supreme authority

Now please let me quote you another verse of Quran:

Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one [76:23]

The above two verses indicates that Allah SWT wants us to follow the personalities given the supreme authority, furthermore Allah SWT does not want us to obey the sinner or ungrateful one. To me this means one of the qualities of the personality given the supreme authority is they are not sinner or ungrateful one.

If quran asks us not to obey the sinner, does it talk about the any pure personalities… Please read the ayat below where quan talks about the purity of Ahleybait

Now let me quote you another verse of Quran:
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.[33:33]

Similarly, following is another verse of quran:
Quran [42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful

In the above verse Quran asks us to love ahleybait.

Following is another hadith of Holy Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir](http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir)

We shias believe in Hazrat Ali AS as our Imam as appointed by Holy Prophet P.B.U.H, Quran testifies the purity of Ahleybait. However, we do not nazubillah take them as God. Imam Ali AS embraced Shahadat while leading Fajr prayers for Allah SWT. Imam Hussain AS sacrificed his whole family in way of Allah, but no one ever claimed to be nazubillah God. Neither us, the believers of 12 Imams (Fiqah-e-Jafferia) ever claimed Imam as nauzbuillah God.

@Ibn_Sadique

You have given wrong examples;

Suppose you had two friends or Uncles and they had an extreme friction/fighting.

You will love the one on the Right more than the other. But you won’t hate the other, dislike maybe but not hate.

Let me quote what I had said initially:

If Mawiya came to war agaisnt Hazrat Ali AS and his companions in the battle of Siffin, would you call him righteous considering the love of Imam Ali AS is the sign of belief as per Sahih bookss? and if a person regards such a person as Ameer ul Momineen… would you call him sincere lover of Imam Ali AS? Just to give you an example, if you consider your dad righteous, and if a person rasises his sword against your dad. Knowing your dad is righteous, and you still support the person who come against him, would you claim that you love your dad? Now would you claim that shias fall in this category nazubillah? .

I don’t see how your example fits the context of my argument. If someone raises sword against your dad, and you know your dad is righteous and yet you still support the other person, would you claim you are a sincere lover of your dad? .

Let me try to explain it in more simple words. You go to a mosque and you know the person who is the Imam of the mosque is righteous. If a person raises sword against the Imam you love and respect, would you support him and take him as your Imam if you knew he was not right. Similarly would you be a sincere lover of the righteous Imam in doing so… In this case following is an hadith of Prophet P.B.U.H in your books:

Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrisy.

Sahih Tirmidhi, volume 5, page 643
Sunan Ibn Majah, volume 1, page 142
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal volume 1, pages 84,95,128
Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202

Furthermore let me quote you an ayat of Quran, hopefully it will make things simple for you:

Be careful of your duty to Allah and be with the Truthful. (9:119)

Following was your reply:

@Ibn_Sadique

That upset you??? – This is the standard belief of all Sunnis of any leanings Salafi/Wahabi/Brelivi/Sufi

94. We confirm that, after the death of Allah’s Messenger, peace be upon him, the caliphate went first to Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, thus proving his excellence and superiority over the rest of the Muslims; then to Umar ibn al-Khattab; then to Uthman; and then to `Ali ibn Abi Talib; may Allah be well pleased with all of them. These are the Rightly-Guided Caliphs and upright leaders.

To the question below:

Originally Posted by Texan_Dude ](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?p=8490495#post8490495)
Just to give you some good example just in this particular thread, a fellow guppy nazubillah claimed, there are companinons who have more virtues then Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain AS.… and I raised a number of questions such as
If Imam Hassan and Imam are the Chielf of the Youth of of Paradise, what is the status or position of them do people who have more virtues then them? Similarly i have quoted a few ayats on the merit of Ahleybait and have asked him to show the ayats on companions he claimed to have more virtues then these personalities… and yet he failed to answer any of them yet…
If a person make such claims and places other people over the personality whose love is sign of a believer and failed to provide justifications, would you place him on the person whose love took him away from righteousnes or the person whose hates take him away from righteousness.

Brother, you are using a worldy Khilafat as a criteria raise the standards of some people above the standards of personalities who are the Chief of the Youth of Heaven. Talking about Caliphs why won’t you go further and included Mawiya, Yazeed and so on??? I have a simple question for you

---

**Was Abu Bakr elected Khalifa by Allah/Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H or elected by ****people? Were Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain elected the Chief of the Youth of Paradise by Allah SWT/Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H or People.

**Also if you can, can you please answer the following question also:

**To you what will be a bigger position being a Caliph on earth or being the chief of the youth of Paradise?

**
I have pretty much clarified the second part Imam Ali AS is asking his followers not to divide amongst themselves and be with the majority, not to split up in sects. There is no need to argue the numbers. Please read my following response :

Let me split your highlighted section in two lines:
and be with the great majority (of Muslims)
because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity

The second line supports the argument for the first one **(Because). **Imam Ali AS is asking his followers not to divide amongst themselves and be with the majority, not to split up in sects. Definitely, Allah himself does not like divisions.

@Ibn_Sadique

These shia sects do not share same prayer places and not even calling them as masjids rather Imambargahs or Jamaat Khanas!!!

Brother we Firqae Jafferia do have masjids also. Check out the following link for Masjid -e Rasool for example

http://www.1god.org