Palestinian statehood

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Re: Palestinian statehood

there you go....thank you for proving me right.....lol...divine power helping ummah!!!
our great muslim ummah has done nothing in last 25 years on economic, military, science and social fronts yet suddenly tide is simply shifting because divine power is at work!!!

the fact of the matter is that there is only one thing that has changed and that is the political landscape in the middle east and more importantly in egypt.. a pro-hamas government is in power for the first time in last 30 years which has legitimate credibility among hamas camp thus giving morsi's Islamist government enough influence to enforce hamas to come to the table for some sort of truce....European capitals and rest of the non-muslim world sensing that and therefore want to give Palestinians a chance by putting some symbolic pressure on israel....that is all....

now i am not suggesting by any means that divine/God is not there..all i am saying hat God has given human beings way more flexibility than what we think....decisions that they we make - individually and collectively - have direct influence on the final outcome of most of the events ... not because God has put some spiritual blessing....

i guarantee you that if mobarak regime was still in power you would have never seen the type of truce that we witnessed coz hamas did not trust Mubarak plus Israelis did not care abt Mubarak regime as it was impotent in terms of exerting influence on hamas... Israelis would have gone for a land invasion.......in a nutshell, masses in egypt did something - stand against mubarak - that had direct influence on the final outcome of some of the subsequent events..it was not God's intervention my friend!

start thinking logically.....dont bring God/divine into everything ... for God/divine sake!

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Re: Palestinian statehood

sorry for disappointing you...I am born and raised Pakistani from Lahore.. lol..and no i don't listen much of American media...i read over 5 urdu and English pakistani newspapers almost everyday (dawn, express tribune, jang, dunya and express urdu) and i do watch Pakistani news channels..as well as BBC and Al-Jazeera..I mean i do, I am not making it up...

and yes American masses are ignorant...but they are not in denial mode..they are just ignorant....

and by your admission Pakistani masses are much more "knowledgeable" ..hey I agree but they are in denial mode for everything.....that is worst..to be knowledgeable but keep denying everything

the whole world is doing a conspiracy against them...911 was fake...Bombay attack was a conspiracy...osama was never in pakistan.. his killing was a staged drama... taliban are american agents...suicide bombers are American and Indian agents....malala was an american agenet.....pakistani cricketers were targeted in match fixing so that pakistan cannot win the world cup... this denial model is getting a bit disgusting to be honest bro!

start thinking logically.....dont bring God/divine into everything ... for God/divine sake!

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Re: Palestinian statehood

sorry for disappointing you...I am born and raised Pakistani from Lahore.. lol..and no i don't listen much of American media...i read over 5 urdu and English newspaper in pakistan (dawn, express tribune, jang, dunya and express urdu) almost every day and i do watch Pakistani news channels..

and yes American masses are ignorant...but they are not in denial mode..they are just ignorant....

and by your admission Pakistani masses are much more "knowledgeable" ..hey I agree but they are in denial mode for everything.....that is worst..to be knowledgeable but keep denying everything

the whole world is doing a conspiracy against them...911 was fake...Bombay attack was a conspiracy...osama was never in pakistan.. his killing was a staged drama... taliban are american agents...suicide bombers are American and Indian agents....

start thinking logically.....dont bring God/divine into everything ... for God/divine sake!

24

Re: Palestinian statehood

.....

25

Yes because i always associate phoenix somewhere in the middle of lahore. You may be pak born and bred, you may well be just a US resident, but your narrative is very telling... Of a typical joe blog in the US.

Pakistan media are generally, pro palestinian or at least anti-US/ isreal, so no i dont think you've been greatly influenced by them.. Even if you do read them alot.

[quote]
start thinking logically.....dont bring God/divine into everything ... for God/divine sake!
[/QUOTE]

And Why not? The two never clash in my view or life. You cant pick and select Gods presence in the world, you either believe He is there or you dont. Its simple as that.

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[QUOTE]
there you go....thank you for proving me right.....lol...divine power helping ummah!!!
our great muslim ummah has done nothing in last 25 years on economic, military, science and social fronts yet suddenly tide is simply shifting because divine power is at work!!!
[/quote]

I don't expect Godless people to understand; so i wont bother going there. But you view the world through a narrow prism, that takes you afar from religion. If you read up on any history book, you will realise that every oppressor, no matter how many decades they rule for, come crashing down eventually, and the oppressed get their victory. This is a vow made by God Himself.

So the fact that the tide is changing as we speak, is nothing to do with you i or anyone else. It is simply Gods promise coming to fore.

[quote]
the fact of the matter is that there is only one thing that has changed and that is the political landscape in the middle east and more importantly in egypt.. a pro-hamas government is in power for the first time in last 30 years which has legitimate credibility among hamas camp thus giving morsi's Islamist government enough influence to enforce hamas to come to the table for some sort of truce....European capitals and rest of the non-muslim world sensing that and therefore want to give Palestinians a chance by putting some symbolic pressure on israel....that is all....
[/quote]

And that was all that was needed for israel to unravel :-) a genuine master stroke!

[quote]
now i am not suggesting by any means that divine/God is not there..all i am saying hat God has given human beings way more flexibility than what we think....decisions that they we make - individually and collectively - have direct influence on the final outcome of most of the events ... not because God has put some spiritual blessing....
[/quote]
. No you just think God belongs in the religion forum, he i.e. kept in the privacy your homes, and He should stay put there!! Unfortunately, a typical secularist mindset!

[quote]
i guarantee you that if mobarak regime was still in power you would have never seen the type of truce that we witnessed coz hamas did not trust Mubarak plus Israelis did not care abt Mubarak regime as it was impotent in terms of exerting influence on hamas... Israelis would have gone for a land invasion.......in a nutshell, masses in egypt did something - stand against mubarak - that had direct influence on the final outcome of some of the subsequent events..it *was not God's intervention my friend! */quote] lol thats whats you think my friend. I firmly believe HE was the main architect of mubarak removal. God works naturally through the system, not through direct intervention.

Dont tell me you expected the nile to open up and swallow mubarak as proof of Gods involvement. He doesnt work that way...that only works for prophets. :-D

[quote]
start thinking logically.....dont bring God/divine into everything ... for God/divine sake!
[/QUOTE]

For some reason the two do not conflict in my world, as they seem to in your world. They work happily side by side.

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Re: Palestinian statehood

Why did Israel object? Because it was an unilateral act, which was in violation of the Oslo agreements. Why did the Czech Republic object? I guess because the Czech Republic is the only state in Europe that is still adherent to the Liberal Democracy values.

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Re: Palestinian statehood

Oslo agreements also required final status negotiation to start by 1996. Israel hasn't started that yet, in violation of the Oslo agreements.

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Re: Palestinian statehood

It was **a **unilateral act, just like the creation of Israel, which gave Israelis (European colonists, which was the main issue in those days, not the fact that they were Jews) 56% of the land, when they made up only 31% of the population, and owned less than 8% of the land. Let's not pretend that the Israelis played by the rules.

Not to mention that Israel continues to build land on territories which would be under Palestinian control under 1967 borders. The fault lies with right wingers like Netanyahu and Arafat who have made careers out of this conflict. Most civilians on both sides would be fine with 1967 borders.

30

Re: Palestinian statehood

I don't know a whole about the past details of Palestine but I have some questions about current status:

1) It is a significant number of people living in a land mass - why do someone else have to accept or authorize them to be a country? Don't we have many recent examples of sections of countries simply voting themselves into split up nations?

2) Is Israel saying Palestine cannot be a country and if so that it is a part of Israel? If so, why?

3) I can understand Jerusalem being an issue because of religious issues but can't that be just an issue about Jerusalem and nothing to do with Palestine being a country?

Would like some historically knowledgeable person to respond

31

Re: Palestinian statehood

1) The Palestinians were supposed to receive a country just like the Israelis. The problem is that the decision was unfair, as I listed above, and was made by Europeans only, a unilateral decision, which is something that Israel now denies the Palestinians. Israel began the ethnic cleansing of the natives to remove them from territories it now claimed. When neighbouring Arab countries intervened, they were defeated by Israel's superior military, which was supplied by Europeans. That's when the occupation began and for 20 years the world forgot about Palestine until the Munich terrorist attack. So yes, the Palestinians were supposed to receive a country but Israel claims that the Arabs attacked them so the occupation is for their safety, and the territories are spoils of war. The real reason of course, is Zionism, which, for the clarification of our anti-Jewish members, is a not something all Jews support.

2) Israel has given citizenship to some Arabs, although this is probably for appearance sake because giving all of the Palestinians citizenship would effectively kill the idea of a Jewish majority state (Arabs would far outnumber the Jews). This is also why Israel denies the descendents of the 700,000 Palestinian refugees the "right of return", which is a human rights law recognized by the UN.

The two state solution was implemented in order to preserve Israel's Jewish majority demographic. It can't be implemented because there are those within Israel who want the Biblical "Greater Israel", which includes all of the Palestinian territories. On the other hand some Israeli and Palestinian leaders (like Netanyahu and Arafat) built their political careers on this conflict, and Arafat in particular, became very wealthy by siphoning off foreign aid. No one knows why he denied the 2000 Oslo Accords, which would have given the Palestinians a state along 1967 borders, something they have to fight for today, but I believe it was to prolong the conflict. Therefore, to keep the conflict going, Israel slowly keeps building settlements in "disputed" territory, and the US protects Israel in the UN, effectively handcuffing the Palestinians diplomatically.

3) Jerusalem is just one issue in this overall conflict. Israel claims that the city is its capital, although most other countries don't recognize it as such. Solutions for Jerusalem have included splitting the city, as well as declaring it a city state belonging to the UN, similar to the Vatican.

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Re: Palestinian statehood

As far as I know, no western power except uncle sam, under harry trumann and his friend, and later person behind israel, Chaim Weizmann. People like Glubb Pasha was commander of Arabs.
before the truce offered, position of Haganah, Irgun and stern gang was precarious because of poor supplies when compared with Arab Legion.

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Re: Palestinian statehood

1) Countries that don't secure recognition by the UN do not get access to the protections that UN members have. For example, Kosovo is recognised by the USA and most Western European countries as an independent country, but not by Russia and China, who prevent Kosovo from joining the UN. As a result, Kosovo is not able to join most international treaties, finds that countries are pressured by Russia and China into refusing to recognise its existence, etc.

In the case of other countries that voted independence for themselves, such as Croatia and Bosnia, they were able to successfully get all members of the UN security council to accept their independence and existence, and thus get treated like any other country.

In the case of the Palestinians, the complicating factor is that the 1993 Oslo accords that the USA negotiated between Israel and the PLO stated that in exchange for starting a negotiated peace process, the PLO would not seek to declare independence until a final peace had been agreed. As a result, the USA views that a Palestinian declaration of statehood would undermine the Oslo peace process, so it blocks Palestine from being declared as an internationally recognised country.

2) Israel's official position, bound by the 1993 Oslo Accords, is that Palestine can be a country just as soon an Israel and Palestine can agree on just what territory should be part of Israel and what territory should be part of Palestine. There has been no such agreement for the past 29 years, and no sign that any agreement will happen in the forseeable future.

3) Both parties have very strong religious views on possession on Jerusalem. The PLO wanta part of Jerusalem (East Jerusalem, the currently mostly Arab part) and refuses to compromise, the Israelis want all of Jerusalem, and refuse to compromise.

As time goes by, the Israeli position gets more and more entrenched. Israel is becoming a much more religious society compared to its mostly secular attitude when founded, and is thus becoming increasingly attached to the importance of possessing all of Jerusalem.