Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

First time I am hearing the next in line argument. out of 5 judges, CJ has issue with 3. The LHC CJ is not on talking terms with the CJ cuz CJ turned down his requests for posting. 2 have references against them.

so he has issues with the majority of the 5 judges. that is very telling. and whether someone is on talking terms or not, is teh CJ convinced thatthis person will put personal gain above what is right? and if that is a concern he has had then he needed to move to disallow this judge from being in the position that he is. Or is a biased self serving judge okay for public issues but not when your own ass is on the line?

When were these references received? what if they were received a month b4 the CJ was kicked? I was listening to Justice. Shah and he said that the references received from the public need to be studied before a justice can be moved against and from CJ's own accounts, he was in the process of doing just that. :)

Well lets see, when these references were recieved and what he did with them. The fact of the matter is that until these references were reviewed and resolved these folks would be in their positions. Whether they were looking at cases of general awaam, or some cheeta.

in your own post referring to CJ, you said innocent until proven guilty. Sure I agree 100% CJ is innocent until proven guilty although evidence of arrassment of media indicates that he is not but thats for the council to decide.

By the same token however the other judges are innocent, even if there are references filed against them which are under review..if they are under review at all. Since they are also innocent until proven guilty then they are free to review his case. If the references against them pain such huge issues that they can not review cases while the references are being reviewed then they should not have been in a position to be reviewing any cases, whether they are for avg joes or for CJ Ifti.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

so he has issues with the majority of the 5 judges. that is very telling. and whether someone is on talking terms or not, is teh CJ convinced thatthis person will put personal gain above what is right? and if that is a concern he has had then he needed to move to disallow this judge from being in the position that he is. Or is a biased self serving judge okay for public issues but not when your own ass is on the line?

How is the CJ to oust another CJ just becuz they are not on talking terms.

Well lets see, when these references were recieved and what he did with them. The fact of the matter is that until these references were reviewed and resolved these folks would be in their positions. Whether they were looking at cases of general awaam, or some cheeta.

Going by this line of argument, the CJP should not have been suspended. If his suspension was right, then these judges should also be suspended. If it wasn't then CJP should be restored. If he is to be sent on forced leave for what he's allegedly done, then more than half of Pakistan should be on leave right now, including our great savior and the people hearing his case.

Intriguingly enough the very judges against whom references r pending restrained the CJP from performing his duties. I smell a contradiction.

in your own post referring to CJ, you said innocent until proven guilty. Sure I agree 100% CJ is innocent until proven guilty although evidence of arrassment of media indicates that he is not but thats for the council to decide.

There's even more damaging evidence against some of the judges. Its in the papers. I am sure u have read it.

By the same token however the other judges are innocent, even if there are references filed against them which are under review..if they are under review at all. Since they are also innocent until proven guilty then they are free to review his case. If the references against them pain such huge issues that they can not review cases while the references are being reviewed then they should not have been in a position to be reviewing any cases, whether they are for avg joes or for CJ Ifti.

Sure they r innocent until proven guilty but the fact that there were cases against them in front of the judge who they are now going to be judging themselves brings in an element of bias which is why there seat on the SJC is contentious. No conspiracy theories behind it.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

How is the CJ to oust another CJ just becuz they are not on talking terms.

so by this you are saying that there was just a spat between them and the other CJ is not a corrupt judge. If so then what is iftis problem with having this guy review his case? Is it because

Going by this line of argument, the CJP should not have been suspended. If his suspension was right, then these judges should also be suspended. If it wasn't then CJP should be restored.

well I guess he did not do his job then right? so just because he dod not do his job does not mean that others dont do their job of suspending him if there are allegations of corruption that need to be investigated.

If he is to be sent on forced leave for what he's allegedly done, then more than half of Pakistan should be on leave right now, including our great savior and the people hearing his case.

why dont we just let all criminals out, bring altaf and benazir and all back too. I mean after all the whole country is bad...why single them out, why single musharraf out.

Intriguingly enough the very judges against whom references r pending restrained the CJP from performing his duties. I smell a contradiction.

how did they prevent him for performing his duty? until the day he was suspended he had the power to do something about these judges, does not appear he did nw. does it.

There's even more damaging evidence against some of the judges. Its in the papers. I am sure u have read it.

to quote you "innocent until proven guilty"
question is, what was ifti doing about this damaging evidence that was aganst other judges?

Sure they r innocent until proven guilty but the fact that there were cases against them in front of the judge who they are now going to be judging themselves brings in an element of bias which is why there seat on the SJC is contentious.

so ifti only wants his friends to judge him? hey, ifti let these ppl stay in power...he could have done sometign about it, he did nt, if he thought that these gusy were good enough to handle all the other cases for now...then they are good enough to handle his case as well.

[Zakk]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

Has anyone read Shariffudin Pirzada and Naeem Bokharis recent interview in the Herald and newsline?

Presidential reference hearing adjourns till April 18
ISLAMABAD: Supreme Judicial Council (SJC) has adjourned the hearing of presidential reference against non-functional Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry till April 18.

The SJC had decided that from now onwards, the hearing would be carried out on two consecutive days.

The lawyer of Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry Barrister Atizaz Ahsan argued about the position of three SJC judges Justice Javed Iqbal, Justice Chaudhry Iftikhar and Justice Abdul Hamid Dogar.

In a three-hour session, Atizaz Ahsan completed his legal arguments on the objections and reservations regarding judges’ position. He had completed his arguments.

Muttahida Majlis Amal(MMA) leader Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Tahreek-i-Insaaf Chairman Imran Khan, Maulana Fazlur Rehman, Makhdoom Amin Fahim and other leaders along with political workers led the protest carried out by large number of political workers of Pakistan Peoples Party, Muslim League (N), Jammat-I-Islami, Pakistan Tahreek-i-Insaaf, ANP and JUI( Sahibzada Fazal Karim Group) outside Supreme Court building.

Panel of lawyers of Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry comprised of Munir A Malik, Qazi Anwar, Tariq Mahmood and Hamid Ali Khan.

The Constitution Avenue has been closed for traffic and traffic jam was reported in various parts of the city.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

so by this you are saying that there was just a spat between them and the other CJ is not a corrupt judge. If so then what is iftis problem with having this guy review his case? Is it because

1. I believe i asked a simple enough question. How do u remove a CJ of LHC just cuz he dont talk to the CJP?

2. If u have to ask me what reservations CJP has abt CJ LHC, then obviously ur knowledge on the issue is limited.

well I guess he did not do his job then right? so just because he dod not do his job does not mean that others dont do their job of suspending him if there are allegations of corruption that need to be investigated.

Pir sahab. Highest respect for u. but to be honest that does not deserve a response. No offense.

why dont we just let all criminals out, bring altaf and benazir and all back too. I mean after all the whole country is bad...why single them out, why single musharraf out.

Thanx for reinforcing my point. Thats what I am saying. Why single CJ out?

how did they prevent him for performing his duty? until the day he was suspended he had the power to do something about these judges, does not appear he did nw. does it.

to quote you "innocent until proven guilty" question is, what was ifti doing about this damaging evidence that was aganst other judges?

already answered.

so ifti only wants his friends to judge him? hey, ifti let these ppl stay in power...he could have done sometign about it, he did nt, if he thought that these gusy were good enough to handle all the other cases for now...then they are good enough to handle his case as well.

Law is equal for all judges. He's not the first person to ask for a change of judges. There r several precedents for this so I dont see this as an issue.

Ur post doesnt come forward with any new arguments for me to answer. As it is I have already addressed most of the issues u raised in ur previous post. So unless there is something new to discuss, please excuse if I dont reply. Dont consider it as a lack of counter argument on my part.

Thanx for ur time. :)

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

the point is that Ifti can not have all his buddies and best pals on the council evaluating the charges against him. Now regardless of LHC judge and ifti not getting along personally, if he is a comptenet judge, then i dont see any issue with having him on the review council.

It does not matter what reservations ifti has against the LHC CJ. the question is, is the LHC CJ a competent person? is he actively under investigation for something? if not, then he is fit to serve in that council.

and then the whole issue of respected ppl like Javed Iqbal not being able to be on the council because his removal will be in their interest, well of course his removal will be in the interest of all senior judges from a career perspective, so why single a few out and not others.

you may not feel that my point about references against other justices is not worth answering, but they are innocent until proven guilty right? so they should e able to review his case. As far as the point that they cant review the case against someone who would be reviewing references agsinst them, well any SCJ would be doing that if ifti is gone and bhagwandas takes over, he will have to review those references. and lastly the point which you are not getting is, that if these references are old and he has not taken any action on it, then it shows that he is either incompetent or insincere.

He claimed he had full trust in justice bhagwandas, and now it appears he did not mean what he said.

PS: love your politeness, wish other ppl can learn from you and be able to disagree in a civilized manner :)

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

@Zakk

Has anyone read Shariffudin Pirzada and Naeem Bokharis recent interview in the Herald and newsline?

yeah..I got both of them

[Zakk]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

^show off :p

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

I spent good money on the black market

i ma get Friday times tomorrow. they got some investigative journalism germ in them as well.

acha..if anyone wants any article from these two publications, I can post it here.

PS: doesnt busharraf look cool in that headgear?

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

@Fraudz

the point is that Ifti can not have all his buddies and best pals on the council evaluating the charges against him. Now regardless of LHC judge and ifti not getting along personally, if he is a comptenet judge, then i dont see any issue with having him on the review council.

incidentally LHC’s CJ brother happens to be a cabinet minister. Now what was that tish tush in the code of conduct about not sitting in ur relatives’ cases:hmmm:

lets see..ah here it is:

@Fraudz

It does not matter what reservations ifti has against the LHC CJ. the question is, is the LHC CJ a competent person? is he actively under investigation for something? if not, then he is fit to serve in that council.

refer above

i think he is one of the members against whom references r pending along with justice dogar.

@Fraudz

and then the whole issue of respected ppl like Javed Iqbal

Debatable. Highly highly highly debatable. Justice Iqbal’s actions on 9th March and in subsequent days are questionable. I could give u several examples just off the top of my head but I am not going to go into that. Anyone who’s observed this whole from close counters will not agree with ur statement.

@Fraudz

not being able to be on the council because his removal will be in their interest, well of course his removal will be in the interest of all senior judges from a career perspective, so why single a few out and not others.

Dear sir…u r obviously oblivious of the facts.

Justice Bhagwandaas retires this December. So whichever way this case goes, he stands to gain/lose nothing. At the rate this enquiry is progressing, he’d probably retire b4 even an opinion is made.

On the other hand, if CJ loses this case..which isnt a case. actually…lets rephrase this..if the SJC gives an opinion against the CJ then Justice Iqbal becomes the new CJ and sees an extension of 4 years in his service. if CJ Iftikhar is exonerated, Justice Iqbal never becomes a CJ. He is 2 years older to CJP.

I am not going to say more on this matter.

@Fraudz

you may not feel that my point about references against other justices is not worth answering, but they are innocent until proven guilty right? so they should e able to review his case. As far as the point that they cant review the case against someone who would be reviewing references agsinst them, well any SCJ would be doing that if ifti is gone and bhagwandas takes over, he will have to review those references. and lastly the point which you are not getting is, that if these references are old and he has not taken any action on it, then it shows that he is either incompetent or insincere.

To be honest, I dont know when the references were received. And when CJP says he was reviewing them, I take his word for it. The law does not put a time bar on the CJP for reviewing references so I am not going to hang him for that. If u wish to however, then more power to you.

@Fraudz

He claimed he had full trust in justice bhagwandas, and now it appears he did not mean what he said.

yeah?

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

so if bhagwandas is running the whole review, he still does not trust the review? or did he mean that he wanted bhagwandas to lead it but ifti picks who he wats to review his case.

as far as LHC judge goes... why is he still there then? if references are pending then either he should to be able to try any cases, or he should be able to try all cases.

was he not trying cases until iftis case started?

yes or no?

[Iconoclast]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

I thinking of doing Baiya of Flame of Life

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

so if bhagwandas is running the whole review, he still does not trust the review? or did he mean that he wanted bhagwandas to lead it but ifti picks who he wats to review his case.

Again pir sahab...defense's objection to bhagwandaas is not in his duties as head of the SJC but as the Acting CJ. I would like to see a defense statement saying they dont want bhagwandaas to chair the SJC. Read closely and u'll notice that the objection is regarding his Acting CJ office.

as far as LHC judge goes... why is he still there then?

Thats what I would like to ask.

if references are pending then either he should to be able to try any cases, or he should be able to try all cases.

was he not trying cases until iftis case started?

yes or no?

I believe thats an issue of how the law is drafted. Address ur anger to the parliament. The law does not bar a judge from performing his duties if a reference is filed against him. At the same time, law does not put a time frame on the CJP to review the reference.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

@Iconoclast

I thinking of doing Baiya of Flame of Life

whats baiya?

[Iconoclast]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

@Flame_of_Life

whats baiya?

Baiyat

Jo pir key haath pey ki jati hai

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

yaar aag kay sholay

I am not angry at all. I just think that if we are going to use the excuse that some dude has references pending against him so he can not sit as a judge here, then he should not be sitting as a judge on any other case too.

It has little to do with ifti or anyone, I just find the premise ridiculous.

as far as bhagwandas, ifit had said he would be okay wih what bhagwandas does and all, and now he is finding issues in how bahgwandas wants to do this? correct me if i am wrong, thats the impression I am getting.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)

@Iconoclast

Baiyat

Jo pir key haath pey ki jati hai

oo thanx. U r too kind but I dont believe in this business of piri/faqeeri

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

oh yaar toh masla kya hai...haath par naeeh kaheen aur baiyat karwa lo icon say yaaar....

[Iconoclast]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

oh yaar toh masla kya hai...haath par naeeh kaheen aur baiyat karwa lo icon say yaaar....

Tajarba bool raha hai pir jee:D

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)

@Fraudz

yaar aag kay sholay

I am not angry at all. I just think that if we are going to use the excuse that some dude has references pending against him so he can not sit as a judge here, then he should not be sitting as a judge on any other case too.

It has little to do with ifti or anyone, I just find the premise ridiculous.

as far as bhagwandas, ifit had said he would be okay wih what bhagwandas does and all, and now he is finding issues in how bahgwandas wants to do this? correct me if i am wrong, thats the impression I am getting.

again the law is not of the CJ's making. This is how it is. Its not an excuse really. What could be the CJP's motivation to stop a judge he trusts from forming an opinion about him? Just think about it. Doesnt make sense to me. Obviously there r some reservations in CJP's mind abt some judges so he wants them out. Simple as that. Moreover, the law gives him a right to question the composition of the judges. Whats the issue then?

The defense has issues with Justice Bhagwandaas or anyone from becoming an acting CJ when the CJP is still around. And the govt. knows they r right. Take a hint from the the change in govt's stance from suspension to forced leave. At the same time, consider that the SJC under Justice iqbal issued orders that mirrored most of what the govt. was saying. Instance:

1. CJP suspended
2. No one allowed to report on SJC proceedings
3. SJC proceedings in camera.

1,2 r out of the ambit of the SJC. Its just a tribunal. It can NOT issue orders.
3: this statement was made by Justice Iqbal the day Aitezaz Ahsan filed a petition for open trial. Needless to say Aitezez Ahsan was only highly amused when he appeared on TV that night.