Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
president cannot even dismiss the the junior most judge of SC ..not even the chairman of Federal public service commission...how he dare to dismiss CJ ?????????
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
You know what? You show me in constitution that a prime minister can sack army chief whenever he likes without giving any reason, just because Prime minister wants to and does not like the face of army chief. If you can show me that in constitution, I promise you that I will show you in constitution that if army chief wants to, they can make prime minister naked and then give him a big danda. :D
I am happy that Nawaz got a danda, unfortunately it was that of army chief and not of Awam. I'll be very happy every time when a corrupt leader gets a Danda from awam.
While despite having differences people have been discussing the issue in a civilized manner.
Stooping to filthy language shows that you hae lost it. If getting the **** out of your mouth makes you happy, continue by all means.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Yea, like reason being that he (Nawaz) becoming lunatic :) ..
What about not informing the PM about starting an operation in Kargil as a reason.
Nawaz earlier also sacked Jahangir Karamat, no one ever said that it was un-constitutional.
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
errr..excuse me sir but I think you failed to decipher the underlying point of my question. It was a simple and straight forward question with a yes or no answer. We’ll go clause by clause:
180 Acting Chief Justice. At any time when-* (a) the office of Chief Justice of Pakistan is vacant;
So I repeat my simple and innocent question: Had the CJ office fallen vacant on March 9? Answer that and we proceed to clause b. 
PS: Admitting its folly, the govt. has retreated from its “suspended” the Cj stance so this debate is merely academic anyway…the latest stand is that the govt. has sent the CJ on “forced leave” waaaweee waaaa:clap:
I think the govt. lawyers on GS have been left high and dry. 
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Great satire.
THE OTHER COLUMN: Confirm’d in full stupidity*** —Ejaz Haider***
If this government wants to survive, even though it has shown itself to be suicidal, someone needs to put a gag order on the Great Leader and two minions of the Realm
This column is never about politics, even though the more finicky would say that everything is political; indeed, that politics, like decrepit age, is tied to us as to a dog’s tail. But while I may eschew politics, stupidity I can’t let slip by without a comment.
Indeed, *rank stupidity *it is that I want to write about because there is no other way to describe the events of the past several days, flout as they do the accepted norms of regular stupidity. A friend once commented that everything, including *ibtizaal *(roughly, vulgarity, obscenity and low-brow behaviour), should have some standards; this is equally true of *himaqat. *
The GOP, not the Grand Old Party but the Government of Pakistan, is traditionally given to shooting itself in the foot; as regularly as that, it also puts the injured foot in its mouth. But the Great Leader has to do something different, more in line with the panache he always displays. So, he seems to have decided to shoot himself in the head.
That definitely is spectacularly stupid; it leaves no room for survival.
In Gujranwala, the other day, the Great Leader thumped his chest and said that no one but he knew the real reasons behind the chief-justice episode: “The issue is sub judice and my lips are sealed. But the day the Supreme Judicial Council gives its verdict, I shall reveal the full details.”
And I thought he would slink away after March 9.
But let’s consider the statement.
First, he seems to be saying that since he is the only one who knows what the suspended CJP might have done, he was right in summoning the judge to the Army House and asking him to resign. There is also an implication here that other people might not have been consulted on this issue. So this is not team stupidity, thank you.
Secondly, the Great Leader has implied that now that the sh** has hit the fan, as it often does when rank stupidity is allowed to run amok, he shall stay quiet.
Thirdly, and this is interesting, he shall unseal his lips only when the Council has passed its verdict. What does that mean? Is the Great Leader implying that the Council may impale the suspended CJP on the reference or is he saying that if the Council does not do that he shall then reveal the true nature of things?
I am confused. Here’s why.
Either way the statement does not correspond with his declared reverence for the matter being sub judice. If the Council is to give a verdict against the CJP (one implication) and the Great Leader already knows about it then the Council is compromised and the Great Leader becomes a contemnor for having referred to such an outcome ex ante.
On the other hand, if he were to reveal the true details ex post — whatever the verdict may be — then it means the Council (second implication) doesn’t have full details on the matter. This again amounts to contempt and raises the question of how the Council can try the respondent judge without having full knowledge of the reference against him — as also the question of why must the Great Leader find it necessary to opine on the issue *after *the Council has adjudged it. Is he saying the Council is irrelevant to this affair?
This is not just being rank stupid, this is rank stupidity at its rankest and most nonsensical.
Meanwhile, we have the Great Leader’s coxcomb-wearing sidekicks kicking high and low and in the process falling all over the place. Two are worth mentioning.
The first is the la-la minister. Were expletives and vulgarity to be given human form, it would come to resemble this gent. He does Punjab proud. The gent is as slow with the use of the head over his shoulders as he is quick with the use of his hands and tongue. That he should formally be the law minister leaves the entire concept up the creek and without a pedal.
That’s exactly the current location of this government.
Which brings me to the other gent, the blah-blah minister. The man, if you ask me, is definitely depriving a village somewhere of an idiot. :hehe: But in the Realm of Rank Stupidity, he is of course a minister and some village shall continue to suffer his absence until rank stupidity can become a thing of the past and he can be sent back to perform his natural function. Incidentally, he also makes the former blah-blah minister look good.
If this government wants to survive, even though it has shown itself to be suicidal, someone needs to put a gag order on the Great Leader and these two minions of the Realm.
While I was sitting in front of the television on Friday shaking my head, some instinct forced me to pick up Dryden’s *Mac Flecknoe. *I wish I could reproduce the entire scene from the Realm of Nonsense, but a few lines may be in order. Shear the poem of its specific context and you shall find, dear reader, much affinity with some living characters. So help us God:
*…pond’ring which of all his sons was fit
To reign, and wage immortal war with wit;
Cry’d, ‘tis resolv’d; for nature pleads that he
Should only rule, who most resembles me:
Shadwell alone my perfect image bears,
Mature in dullness from his tender years.
Shadwell alone, of all my sons, is he
Who stands confirm’d in full stupidity.
The rest to some faint meaning make pretence,
But Shadwell never deviates into sense.
Some beams of wit on other souls may fall,
Strike through and make a lucid interval;
But Shadwell’s genuine night admits no ray,
His rising fogs prevail upon the day…
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\03\18\story_18-3-2007_pg3_4
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
gems..by..our..lawminister
Iconoclast,I..guess..you..were..referring..to..this
he..used..crass..language,bullied..eitezaz.ehsan…but..what..he..said..to..AnsarAbasi..is..indeed..shameful,an..unbecoming..conduct..by..a..lawminister..of..a..country
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Is this sad or what..
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
^They'll say it was constitutional.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
everyone and roadrunner,
stop getting personal every now and then.
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Cowasjee this Sunday 18 Mar 2006;
http://dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm
Mismanaged and dysfunctional
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
PONDER: Naeem Bokhari’s credentials are widely known. Who, or what, inspired him to write as he did in his letter addressed to the Chief Justice of Pakistan? And how and why did he ensure that it was immediately widely circulated? It was dated February 16 and by the 17th was plastered all over cyber space.
One must agree with what many have written (including a most pertinent editorial in a Lahore weekly) that the now suspended and rendered ‘non-functional’ Chief Justice of Pakistan has for long been infringing on the jurisdiction of the establishment in such matters as the Steel Mill, the New Murree scheme (or rather scam), the conduct of the police, the desecration of parks and other open spaces in various cities of the country. Perhaps his worst crime was to infringe on the jurisdiction of our agencies which have assumed the prerogative to ‘pick up’ and magically to make citizens of this country who were not towing the official line to ‘disappear.’.
- President General Pervez Musharraf is a military dictator, but so far he has not proven himself to be endowed in any manner with fascistic tendencies. This being so, one must ask who was it that attempted to prove himself more loyal than the Fuehrer by engineering that the offices of Geo Television, Jang, and The News be invaded by lowly members of the Punjab police on the afternoon of March 16? Was the intention to pander to Musharraf’s undeclared wishes, or was it to make the concerned group better known worldwide? If the latter, that has been achieved. If the former, it has done probably irredeemable damage.
But what we must do is to thank the electronic media and acknowledge that without it, and the freedom it has been accorded, millions of us would not be aware of what is what and what is actually happening in our dysfunctional land.
Ponder again : Who was it who masterminded the ‘suspension’ of the Chief Justice of Pakistan before the presidential reference against him was heard? Which bright spark was it who has added to the local legal lexicon the phrase ‘non-functional’ in this particular context? Those who may attribute this to my friend and lawyer, Jadoogar of Jeddah Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, are as wrong as wrong can be. The Jadoogar, while the preparation of the reference was underway, was actually in Jeddah overseeing the revision of the OIC charter.
To anyone conversant with the legal skills with which he is endowed it is evident that he was not consulted in the matter. Had he been, things would not have come to such a sorry pass. As astutely and correctly noted by a fellow columnist in a Lahore-based newspaper writing on the mess that has been made by inefficient, if not downright stupid, advice. “Another disturbing aspect is how blindingly clear it is that the deft hand of Sharifuddin Pirzada is absent. Never before has a military ruler attempted to fiddle with the judiciary without Pirzada masterminding the operation. He is a lawyer of both tremendous ability and vast experience . . . . [he] also always ensured that a legal footing, no matter how tenuous, was provided, which is not the case here.”
And again : Which hamfisted nincompoop ordered that the Chief Justice of Pakistan be kept under virtual house arrest and incommunicado from even the lawyers who are defending him? Which dysfunctional functionary ordered that the Chief Justice (regardless of what he should or should not have done) be waylaid when he set out for the Supreme Court and the reference hearing on March 13, and thus ensured that a photograph of his being manhandled – grasped by the hair on his head – by members of the police force be printed on the front page of one of our press publications?
And worse, which ‘information’ genius advised the general to call into his camp office on March 9 the press and the electronic media? We and the world could well have done without shots of a military general sitting with the Chief Justice of his country.
We need to know the answers if we are to come anywhere near understanding the whys and wherefores of the ridicule to which this nation is being held because one man has been misadvised, has not calmly thought out the issue, and has acted in undue haste.There are those who maintain that the politicians have made capital out of this misadventure. Why should they not? The army is marching on its stomach. How long can our greedy politicians remain hungry?
Now, it is up to the general to try and retrieve the situation. An editorial in The Times (London) gives due praise to Musharraf “for his resolute opposition to fanaticism” and “for his efforts to modernise Pakistan, not least by improving the appalling legal status of women . . . .”. It points out “a signal error of judgment on his part” which has resulted in an uproar – his suspension of “the outspoken Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry” on allegations of abuse of authority “whose substance has yet to be made public.”
It ends : “It is useless for the government to deny any political motive. Its action is almost universally seen as an attempt to tame the judiciary before elections this year under rules that are expected to come under legal challenge. President Musharraf must calm this storm . . . . Good Generals know when to retreat.”
Yes, they do, but then it is far more difficult to make the retreat than to advance. Few would have ‘gloriously’ retreated as Musharraf so wisely did on the day after 9/11.
- This is a short column. Disgust and dismay prevents me from writing more.* All we can do is murmur to ourselves “Let Good triumph over Evil.”
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
I think they’ll say he is a criminal cuz he was resisting the police 
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
hello genius. 180(a) also says the Pres. shall appoint an Acting CJ "WHEN" the Chief Justice of Pakistan is absent or is unable to perform the functions of his office due to any other cause
Great Logic!!
When all the lotas and chamchas are making a fool of themselves explaining government's postition on the media you have made some great points, your language qualifies you for the law minister position (wasi zafar will be proud of you)
may be you don't understand that CJ cannot be suspended on the grounds of a reference and neither can he be under house arrest until a decision is made on the reference by the SJC and sent back to president for action
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
^^If you don't understand the Constitution that been explained to you hundreds of times, this is a problem with your logic, not mine. I dont know about placing the CJ under House Arrest, whether that has in reality been done, or whether it's lies, whether it should be done or whether it shouldnt. But as far as suspension goes, the Constitution of Pakistan is 100% clear that the President can appoint a new Chief Justice (and by definition suspend the other one as per Article 180), if the President is only of the opinion that the Chief Justice is guilty of misconduct (as per Article 209).
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
As you can’t read further back than a page, here is the Article that gives the President the power the appoint a new Chief Justice (and by implication to suspend the old one)
Article 180 is very CLEAR that Musharraf can suspend the Chief Justice and appoint a new one to act in his place while the SJ Council inquire into the allegations. It is clearly mentioned implicitly that Musharraf has the power to suspend the Chief Justice, here it is once more.
*180. Acting Chief Justice. At any time when- (a) the office of Chief Justice of Pakistan is vacant; or (b) the Chief Justice of Pakistan is absent or is **unable to perform the functions of his office due to any other cause, the President shall appoint **[163]](http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part7.ch2.notes.html#163) [the most senior of the other Judges of the Supreme Court] to act as Chief Justice of Pakistan. *
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/co…part7.ch2.html
The important point here is the phrase “The President shall appoint”. This means that the president has the constitutional obligation to invoke this Article, and appoint a new acting Chief Justice if the Chief Justice is unable to perform the functions of his office. This much is clearly stated, and this is a clear statement that the President has the power to suspend the Chief Justice. Only the President can invoke this Article, and appoint a new Chief Justice, it so follows that the old Chief Justice will remain suspended. Taken together with Article 209, it is clear the President cannot sack the Chief Justice, and has to abide by the Council decision, which makes the judiciary independent of the government, though the president does clearly have the power to appoint a new Chief Justice while waiting for the results of the inquiry.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
roadrunner doesnt wanna play with me :/
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Funnily enough, you can’t seem to be able to read.
The FULL (you know what this means) Article 180 is this..
*180. Acting Chief Justice. At any time when- (a) the office of Chief Justice of Pakistan is vacant; or (b) the Chief Justice of Pakistan is absent **OR **is **unable to perform the functions of his office due to any other cause, the President shall appoint **[163]](http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part7.ch2.notes.html#163) [the most senior of the other Judges of the Supreme Court] to act as Chief Justice of Pakistan. *
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/co…part7.ch2.html
Note the big OR that i’ve highlighted in blue, put in bold type, and underlined, so even you can read it and understand it. If you can’t understand it after this, then go find someone else as dense as yourself to play with.
Government hasnt changed its stance. Dawn might have, or might be misreporting as usual, but the Pakistani government have used Article 209 and Article 180 of the Constitution to justify their position.
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Thanx for the kind words. I am sure a moderator will have a look at them
That OR is part of clause b. Why leapfrog to clause b when we haven’t even established facts about clause a.
So my innocent question searching for a simple yes/no answer from ur self:
Had the CJ office fallen vacant on March 9. Yes or No. Simple enough?
Answer that and we proceed to clause b and discusses the and’s & or’s :chai:
Sir, you can keep denying, but the govt. has conveniently pulled the rug from under u
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\03\18\story_18-3-2007_pg1_8
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2007/18/index2.php
http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=539648&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate=
Lets see here. I wonder what best describes the predicament this leaves the unofficial cyber-counsel of the govt. in :hmmm:
Like I said, I am willing to forget this change of govt. stance and argue on 180 and 209 only if u go clause by clause and prove to u the unconstitutionality of Musharraf’s decision. After all, u seem to know the constitution better than those who actually helped craft it.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
That OR is part of clause b. Why leapfrog to clause b when we haven't even established facts about clause a. :)
Hello brain, anyone home? The keyword is OR
[QUOTE]
lots of irrelevant waffle
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
lots of irrelevant links.
[/QUOTE]
I actually read a government statement on how they justified their position and it was through Articles 180 and 209 as I said. Whatever your links are trying to say, the government statement was quite clear.
[QUOTE]
Like I said, I am willing to forget this change of govt. stance and argue on 180 and 209 only if u go clause by clause and prove to u the unconstitutionality of Musharraf's decision. :)
[/quote]
Not interested. You can't even understand what the word "or" means.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Hello brain, anyone home? The keyword is OR
I actually read a government statement on how they justified their position and it was through Articles 180 and 209 as I said. Whatever your links are trying to say, the government statement was quite clear.
Not interested. You can't even understand what the word "or" means.
Sure. Ur choice. My challenge stays. Any day u want to take it up. Clause by clause. I suspect u have seen the folly of ur argument already and backed down, much like the govt. :)
Thanx for saving me a lot of time, though. Like the govt. I think its time for its supporters to lose their frequencies :)
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
180. Acting Chief Justice. At any time when- (a) the office of Chief Justice of Pakistan is vacant; or (b) the Chief Justice of Pakistan is absent ORis unable to perform the functions of his office due to any other cause, the President shall appoint **[163]](http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part7.ch2.notes.html#163)* [the most senior of the other Judges of the Supreme Court] to act as Chief Justice of Pakistan.*
Roadrunner: You are absolutely right about the above clause. YES chief justice office was vacant in Pakistan on 9th of March and there was effectively no chief justice in Pakistan that could have performed duty of CJ. Thus, under the consitution, it was obligatory that President appoints an acting chief justice to perform that duty.
Question is not that how or why CJ office was vacant, but if it was vacant or not? And the answer is that ‘YES’, chief justice office was vacant on 9th of March, due to chief justice getting suspended.
There could be many reasons for CJ office getting vacant. I won’t go into all reasons, but nevertheless, one reason is that CJ got suspended and due to that reason, on 9th of March, chief justice office became vacant and there was need to appoint acting chief justice.
According to constitution clause 180, given below, if chief justice office becomes vacant, it becomes duty of President to appoint an acting chief justice.
Clause is as under: It says that for any reason, if chief justice office becomes vacant, President should appoint an acting chief justice. Acting chief justice is not chief justice but is temporary in the position of chief justice, and stays in that position until chief justice again resumes the duty of chief justice or another person is appointed as chief justice or acting chief justice is replaced by another person.
180. Acting Chief Justice. At any time when- (a) the office of Chief Justice of Pakistan is vacant; or (b) the Chief Justice of Pakistan is absent ORis unable to perform the functions of his office due to any other cause, the President shall appoint **[163]](http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part7.ch2.notes.html#163)* [the most senior of the other Judges of the Supreme Court] to act as Chief Justice of Pakistan.*
Note: unable to perform the functions of his office due to any other cause: Where any other cause means all possible causes (that includes suspension) that may stop chief justice to perform the duty of chief justice and thus making chief justice office vacant. If such situation comes, it becomes duty of President to appoint an acting chief justice.
But roadrunner, I hope that you wont ask me to argue with those that would argue without any arguments not because of being right or wrong, but because for me, it would be waste of time 