Pakistan's Road To Democracy

[LuxuryItem]

Some questions for democracy loving Pakistanis:

1. Does Pakistan have (non democratic?) institutions that support democracy?

2. How long would it take Pakistan to have those institutiosn in place?

3. Free elections don’t make a country democratic. What does democracy mean to Pakistan? Public sentiment for change and ‘just’ leaders may be hollow idealism not grounded in, well, ground realities. Similarly, civilian rule and rulers may not be democratic, just non-military rulers and that’s what the latest events indicate that civilians rulers (read: families) are exerting pressure to take over the ruler-ship of the country from military.

4. Is Pakistan strong enough to survive a period of transition to democracy? In light of the external pressures i.e. afgi situation, and internal chaos i.e. mullah movement and other political instabilities, can a vulnerable Pakistan develop gross roots leadership with ties to foreign markets and finance.

5. Democracy looks great in books but costs money. Who’s paying for it?

6. Is Pakistan governable by civvies? Are Pakistani people law-abiding, tax paying, honest people who can support a “democracy” even if it means obeying strict laws?

Answer the questions to the best of your ability.

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

Dear democracy lovers,

this is a great opportunity for us to discuss Pakistan's road to democracy without personal jabs, taunts and political sloganeering. Also, these questions require a deep understanding of political democratic process as well as history of Pakistan.

Let's have a calm, cool, and educated discussion without the usual invectives.

[wunderkind]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

1. It has some institutions but the institutions it has are not strong enough. There's a relatively vibrant press but it is prone to corruption. The legal system is also corrupt and politicised. But most of all, it's the army that is the stumbling block. Even though the army is strong as an institution, it is too political and hence a major obstacle to democracy.

2. The institutions are in place. What you need is a radical re-ordering and overhaul. The army should be depoliticised.

3. Pakistan first needs to grapple with the question: why does it exist? is its existence justified?

4. It is clearly not strong enough. Weak and decentralised rule would be an invitation to neighbours to come in and tear the country apart. Even Musharraf seems incapable of containing the Pushtuns.

5. It's not as costly as a military government that overspends on defence.

6. Yes. But it will take many decades, if not centuries, before any change takes place.

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

1. It has some institutions but the institutions it has are not strong enough. There's a relatively vibrant press but it is prone to corruption. The legal system is also corrupt and politicised. But most of all, it's the army that is the stumbling block. Even though the army is strong as an institution, it is too political and hence a major obstacle to democracy.

Some institutions? What are they? Is Army an obstacle to democracy or incompetence of the civvies?

[quote]

1. The institutions are in place. What you need is a radical re-ordering and overhaul. The army should be depoliticised. [/quote]

Which institutions? Your reponse is too vague.

[quote]

1. Pakistan first needs to grapple with the question: why does it exist? is its existence justified? [/quote]

This has no correlation with democratic rule. Democracy lovers would have you believe that democracy cures all.

[quote]

1. It is clearly not strong enough. Weak and decentralised rule would be an invitation to neighbours to come in and tear the country apart. Even Musharraf seems incapable of containing the Pushtuns. [/quote]

Then what do you make of cries of democracy from every doodh-wala, moochie, and peon?

[quote]
5. It's not as costly as a military government that overspends on defence.
[/quote]

What exactly does Democracy bring to people if not good public programs and they cost money. What makes you say that military spending will/does outpace public spending?

[quote]
6. Yes. But it will take many decades, if not centuries, before any change takes place.
[/quote]

I wonder if this (grim) reality is all too evident to general public (excluding peon/typist judges and lawyers and their political puppet masters) and not to special interest groups.

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

Surprised to see such a deluge of responses from the democracy lovers.

[legbreakgoogly]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

I started a much better thread on this topic not long ago.

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

^

Stay focused on this thread or move on.

[Captain1]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

1. Does Pakistan have (non democratic?) institutions that support democracy?

What institutions is Pakistan lacking?

[quote]
2. How long would it take Pakistan to have those institutiosn in place?
[/quote]

When you can point out the missing links then we can talk about what it would take and how long it might take to have them.

[quote]
3. Free elections don't make a country democratic. What does democracy mean to Pakistan? Public sentiment for change and 'just' leaders may be hollow idealism not grounded in, well, ground realities. Similarly, civilian rule and rulers may not be democratic, just non-military rulers and that's what the latest events indicate that civilians rulers (read: families) are exerting pressure to take over the ruler-ship of the country from military.
[/quote]

I agree, free elections wouldn't make country as 'democratic'. The very same political parties who shout their lungs out for 'democracy' are run based on non-democratic ways, their leaders are (s)elected and no 're-election' is sought after any defined period, rather non-agreeing party has to break away and form another party.

[quote]
4. Is Pakistan strong enough to survive a period of transition to democracy? In light of the external pressures i.e. afgi situation, and internal chaos i.e. mullah movement and other political instabilities, can a vulnerable Pakistan develop gross roots leadership with ties to foreign markets and finance.
[/quote]

Yes we can do it, it might not be in 2 years, 4 years, may take a decade or 2 to develop.

[quote]
5. Democracy looks great in books but costs money. Who's paying for it?
[/quote]

All the supposed institutions are still there in the existing dictatorship (parliaments, assemblies and what nots) so why would a pure democracy cost more?

[quote]
6. Is Pakistan governable by civvies? Are Pakistani people law-abiding, tax paying, honest people who can support a "democracy" even if it means obeying strict laws?
[/quote]

Pakistan is very much governable by civvies, if MQM supporters can be loyal to the leader then Pakistanis can be loyal to the country if the country gives same respect to its citizens.

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

^

Don't answer questions with questions. If you don't understand the purpose of this thread, kindly leave.

[Captain1]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

@LuxuryItem

^

Don't answer questions with questions. If you don't understand the purpose of this thread, kindly leave.

You should've said in your first post that you are not ready for any questions.

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

Don't turn this thread into a personal slug-fest.

The purpose of the thread is to answer the questions I posed. If you can't understand the simple premise, start your own thread or move on. No need to get personal.

[zobia]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

they have their own hidden definition of Democrazy. :D

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

^

Seems like it.

Not one single lover of democracy has answered the questions cogently other than typical verbal sparring. Bottom line is that people have a romantic notion of democracy that's not rooted in Pakistan's ground realities.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

true

[Haris]

Re: Pakistan’s Road To Democracy

LI,
I liked this post of yours few days ago in another thread. Good idea starting a thread on it. :k:

@LuxuryItem

^

Seems like it.

Not one single lover of democracy has answered the questions cogently other than typical verbal sparring. Bottom line is that people have a romantic notion of democracy that’s not rooted in Pakistan’s ground realities.

All well put!

[zobia]

Re: Pakistan’s Road To Democracy

@LuxuryItem

Seems like it.

Not one single lover of democracy has answered the questions cogently other than typical verbal sparring. Bottom line is that people have a romantic notion of democracy that’s not rooted in Pakistan’s ground realities.

true wat u have said, but if we have roti in r tummy.
democracy is a healthy mindz game. wat we have is democrazy n every crazy of this demo (unpredictable amount of time) comes wid a new way to run us crazy.
democracy may exist if we all acknowledges and follow law n order, one as united. whereas one may only see fraternity when it comes to corruption.

ironic ea…but dats a bitter reality. rulers r ppl among us not outsiders. they not only represent us, but also represent wat we r (or in otherwordz precisely speaking >earlier generations)
so so far we dont have time to find out wat exactly this fish, democracy is. (we just spend time to find how else one may grab more?)

lover of democracy wont gonna help. we need believer who actually gonna implement. (iff dats the best solution)

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

aur khamooshi cha gayee chaar soo..

[zobia]

Re: Pakistan’s Road To Democracy

[Croquet]

Re: Pakistan’s Road To Democracy

@Fraudz

aur khamooshi cha gayee chaar soo..

democracy? pakistani romantacised notion? yes very much so.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Pakistan's Road To Democracy

Some questions for democracy loving Pakistanis:

R u one of them?

1. Does Pakistan have (non democratic?) institutions that support democracy?

Nope.

1. How long would it take Pakistan to have those institutiosn in place?

I dont remember what Ayub said but Zia promised 90 days. Mush said 3 years.

1. Free elections don't make a country democratic.

Interesting.

What does democracy mean to Pakistan?

Same as it does to everyone else. Free fair elections, honest reps, strong institutions with proper checks and balances.

Public sentiment for change and 'just' leaders may be hollow idealism not grounded in, well, ground realities.

Opinion.

Similarly, civilian rule and rulers may not be democratic, just non-military rulers and that's what the latest events indicate that civilians rulers (read: families) are exerting pressure to take over the ruler-ship of the country from military.

Is the phenomenon u talk about because of a malfunctioning system or because the people want to be ruled by inept leaders? Takes two to tango. If military is sincere, why hand over the rule to these "families"

1. Is Pakistan strong enough to survive a period of transition to democracy?

Pakistan is stronger than u give it credit for.

In light of the external pressures i.e. afgi situation, and internal chaos i.e. mullah movement and other political instabilities, can a vulnerable Pakistan develop gross roots leadership with ties to foreign markets and finance.

Why not?

1. Democracy looks great in books but costs money.

What does the alternative cost?

Who's paying for it?

I do and I demand democracy.

1. Is Pakistan governable by civvies?

If not, who else?

Are Pakistani people law-abiding, tax paying, honest people who can support a "democracy" even if it means obeying strict laws?

Let the people decide. If they r crook and want a crook to lead, their choice. The collective wisdom shall prevail.

Answer the questions to the best of your ability.

:)