Pakistan's new arch rivals in cricket & hockey

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21

Very true - They have stopped pak from reaching Asiad finals since 1990 and keep beating them in every tournament they meet pakistan.

Its funny though that you guys keep insisting on having Germany as your rivals. Last time Pakistan won any big tournament was in 1994. However Germany has been among the top 3 since 1990s.
In Hockey - There should be three Groups -
Group 1 - Australia, Holland, Germany (Because these three Teams have been winning all the major tournaments)
Group 2 - Pakistan, South Korea, England, Argentina,Malaysia
Group 3 - India, Spain, Japan,Newzealand and all other Teams

In Cricket -

Group 1 - Australia, South Africa, Sri Lanka (in That order)

Group 2 - Pakistan, New Zealand, England, India, West Indies, Zimbabwe (In that Order)

Group 3 - Kenya, Bangladesh (In that order)

AK

22

[quote]
Originally posted by Asif_k:
** In Hockey - There should be three Groups -
Group 1 - Australia, Holland, Germany (Because these three Teams have been winning all the major tournaments)
Group 2 - Pakistan, South Korea, England, Argentina,Malaysia
Group 3 - India, Spain, Japan,Newzealand and all other Teams

In Cricket -

Group 1 - Australia, South Africa, Sri Lanka (in That order)

Group 2 - Pakistan, New Zealand, England, India, West Indies, Zimbabwe (In that Order)

Group 3 - Kenya, Bangladesh (In that order)

**
[/quote]

Its more like this
1.) Pakistan, Australia, Germany, Holland
2.) South Korea, Argentina, Spain
3.) India Japan Newzeland and all other teams

Pakistan looses the world cup and they are in the league of england and malaysia.
C'mon when India defeated Australia, it didn't mean that they were in the league of south africa and the aussies.
Couple wins against one team does not prove anything, Pakistan, Australia, Germany, Holland have always been the four dominate countries for hockey and they will stay for years on.
The german tournament is coming in several months and Pakistan will surely win that one.

As for cricket, srilanka and Pakistan are very much even teams, srilanka is no where close being like australia, as far as Iam concerned Australia should be all alone on group 1.
1.) Australia
2.) South Africa Srilanka Pakistan
3.) England Newzland
4.) India Zimbabwe Westindies
5.) Bangladesh Kenya

23

[quote]
Originally posted by UMAIR316:
** Its more like this
1.) Pakistan, Australia, Germany, Holland
2.) South Korea, Argentina, Spain
3.) India Japan Newzeland and all other teams
Pakistan looses the world cup and they are in the league of england and malaysia.**
[/quote]

Umair, I cant help it if it hurts you, But Let me tell you that Pakistan has not won any major tournament since 1994 (Last Time it won the Champion's Trophy and World Cup), Pakistan has not won Asiad Gold Medal in 10 years (infact they finished 3rd in 1994 and 1998) and only Tournament of any significance won by Pakistan was back in 1999 (Sultan Azlan Shah Cup, In which Australia and Holland didn't participate)
Pakistan is a good team, but not the best (Not even in Asia, They have lost consistenyly to the South Koreans). On the Other Hand Germany, Holland and Australia have won at least one major Tournament in last couple of years.

Can you specify any data/Statistics suggesting Pakistan is at Par with Australia/Holland/Germany ?

[quote]
** C'mon when India defeated Australia, it didn't mean that they were in the league of south africa and the aussies.**
[/quote]

Never, Thats' why I put them in their Place, but it does say something about Australian team, They are not invincible and they can be beaten (Because they been beaten twice in a row in 1998 and then 2001)

[quote]
Couple wins against one team does not prove anything, Pakistan, Australia, Germany, Holland have always been the four dominate countries for hockey and they will stay for years on.
[/quote]

Pakistan was the dominating force until 1990s (like India was until 1960s) - But now it is Australia,Holland and Germany. Unless Pakistan/India bring prefessionalism to their game - they are going to go backward.
I hope you are not implying here that Koreans wins against Pakistan are just fluke. If you do - then please refer to the stats books - they are pretty consistent.

[quote]
*The german tournament is coming in several months and Pakistan will surely win that one.
[QUOTE]
*

Well Good Luck to Pakistan - But I will not put my money on Pakistan.

[QUOTE]
*As for cricket, srilanka and Pakistan are very much even teams, srilanka is no where close being like australia, as far as Iam concerned Australia should be all alone on group 1.
1.) Australia
2.) South Africa Srilanka Pakistan
3.) England Newzland
4.) India Zimbabwe Westindies
5.) Bangladesh Kenya
*
[/quote]

I dont know how you say that Pakistan and Sri Lanka are even teams - They have beaten Pakistan fair and square in last couple of Test Series (In Pakistan). Can you back your claim by stats ? or is it just what you feel ?
Anyways - I have no intentions of waking you up from your dream world. Keep dreaming.

AK

24

Orgiginally posted by Asif_k

Umair, I cant help it if it hurts you, But Let me tell you that Pakistan has not won any major tournament since 1994 (Last Time it won the Champion's Trophy and World Cup), Pakistan has not won Asiad Gold Medal in 10 years (infact they finished 3rd in 1994 and 1998) and only Tournament of any significance won by Pakistan was back in 1999 (Sultan Azlan Shah Cup, In which Australia and Holland didn't participate)
Pakistan is a good team, but not the best (Not even in Asia, They have lost consistenyly to the South Koreans). On the Other Hand Germany, Holland and Australia have won at least one major Tournament in last couple of years.

Can you specify any data/Statistics suggesting Pakistan is at Par with Australia/Holland/Germany ?

You said it yourself, not winning major tournaments means you are not a good team, that means South Africa should not be in the same class as Australia, since they have never won a major tournament.

originally posted by asik_k

dont know how you say that Pakistan and Sri Lanka are even teams - They have beaten Pakistan fair and square in last couple of Test Series (In Pakistan). Can you back your claim by stats ? or is it just what you feel ?
Anyways - I have no intentions of waking you up from your dream world. Keep dreaming.

As you have suggested I went back and looked at stats, the last time these two met Pakistan defeated Srilanka in test match series 2-0.
In one days both teams have been preety even
Pakistan winning the last trophy in Sharjah and Srilanka winning the one before, its amazing that you can only remember the time when Pakistan has lost to Srilanka but not the time when Pakistan has beaten Srilanka.

Since you are big fan of stats, here is one for recent test and one day matches between pak and SL from past two years including atc

test match played won lost draw
pakistan 7 3 3 1

srilanka 7 3 3 1

here is the stats for one days
matches played won lost
pakistan 14 7 7
srilanka 14 7 7

here is the link, its too long so go find out yourself.

go to cricket.org
look under database, click on stats guru, look for pakistan's record against SL for both test and one days in the past 2 years.

[This message has been edited by UMAIR316 (edited March 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by UMAIR316 (edited March 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by UMAIR316 (edited March 11, 2002).]

25

Umair, You got to be kidding here - Did you watch the latest Tri-Series between Australia-South Africa-NewZealand in Australia ? If you did then you will find that South Africa won the Tournament. Australia didn’t even reach the Finals. South Africa is second best TEam right now Both in Tests and Onedays. They have been winning One-Day Tournaments and have beaten every country (Australia) in Test Series Both at home and abroad.
Also It was funny that you mixed my Hockey comments with Cricket.

Either Accept the fact that Pakistan hockey is not as good as Australia/Holland/Germany or provide the stats to prove otherwise.

I really doubt it that you checked the stats - Infact Lanka is the First country to win back to back series against Pakistan in Pakistan.

I am fan of stats and here is the stats :- TEST RANKINGS

AK

26

asif bhai, here are all the links for the past test matches between Srilanka and Pakistan in the past 2 years.
http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/SL_PAK_T1_26FEB-01MAR2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/SL_PAK_T2_05-09MAR2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/SL_PAK_T3_12-16MAR2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_T1_14-18JUN2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_T2_21-25JUN2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_T3_28JUN-02JUL2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/ASIA-TEST/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ASIA-TEST_T-FINAL_06-10MAR2002.html

asif bhai, here are all the links of one day matches between Pakistan and Srilanka in the past two years.

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/SL_PAK_ODI1_13FEB2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/SL_PAK_ODI2_16FEB2000.html
http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/SL_PAK_ODI3_19FEB2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/OD_TOURNEYS/ASIA/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ASIA_ODI6_05JUN2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/OD_TOURNEYS/ASIA/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ASIA_ODI-FINAL_07JUN2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/OD_TOURNEYS/SINTRI/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_SINTRI_ODI1_05JUL2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/OD_TOURNEYS/SINTRI/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_SINTRI_ODI4_09JUL2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/OD_TOURNEYS/ICCKO/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ICCKO_ODI-QF2_08OCT2000.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/OD_TOURNEYS/ARY/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ARY_ODI1_08APR2001.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/OD_TOURNEYS/ARY/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ARY_ODI4_13APR2001.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/OD_TOURNEYS/ARY/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_ARY_ODI-FINAL_20APR2001.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/OD_TOURNEYS/CHT/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_CHT_ODI2_27OCT2001.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/OD_TOURNEYS/CHT/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_CHT_ODI6_02NOV2001.html

http://statserver.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/OD_TOURNEYS/CHT/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_CHT_ODI-FINAL_04NOV2001.html

Asif bhai, I hope you checked all the links I gave you before replying.
Please don’t call me a lier, I spend alot of time providing you with the links.

Asif bhai, here are the links of the last of test series played in Srilanka which Pakistan won back to back.
http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1994-95/PAK_IN_SL/PAK_SL_T1_09-13AUG1994.html

http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1994-95/PAK_IN_SL/PAK_SL_T2_18-23AUG1994.html

http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1994-95/PAK_IN_SL/PAK_SL_T3_26-28AUG1994.html

here is the second series of which pak won.
http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_T1_14-18JUN2000.html

http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_T2_21-25JUN2000.html
http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/PAK_SL_T3_28JUN-02JUL2000.html

Asif bhai, I preety sure it hurts you inside why India isn’t the best like SL and Pak.
As far as the world test championship table, that doesn’t mean anything, sl are no in 3rd place because they defeated Pakistan back to back but also because they played third class teams like Zim, and Westindies in four different occasions in the past 2 years.

As for hockey Iam still looking for a decent site which provides the completer stats for each team, I will post the as soon as I find them.

27

Rest Assured, I am all for a healthy discussion. also my appologies If you got any such indication from my post.

Umair Bhai, It hurts to see Indian team perform badly in international Tournaments and in Tests Abroad and I personally dont give much credit to Indian wins at HOME.
But to Say that Pakistan is the Best is wrong on your Part because Pakistan has lost at home and abroad both whereas India has won consistently at home and lost consistently abroad. Pakistan is mriginally better than India but not the best. However Lankans are the among the best and have won at home and abroad and have beaten good teams like Australia.

Well, If that doesn’t mean anything to you means you dont accept ICC version and have your own rating systems, then probably there is no point in continuing any discussion because I think ICC is the Supreme body and all cricket playing nations and fans accept its touring plans and its ratings. So Pakistan can’t really compain that their rating is low because they have played Tough teams and Sri Lanka is better because they have played weak teams.

Also - Pakistan and Sri Lanka both have faced Zimbabwe and WetIndies Twice.Sri Lanka Won the Series against Zimbabwe both at Home and Away, On the Other hand Pakistan Lost the series at home and won the away Series.
Here are the links :- http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/ZIM_IN_SL/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/SL_IN_ZIM/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1998-99/ZIM_IN_PAK/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1997-98/PAK_IN_ZIM/

Now Coming on to West Indies - Sri Lanka won at Home and lost in West Indies however Pakistan lost at home and won in West Indies
http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/WI_IN_SL/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1996-97/SL_IN_WI/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_WI/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/WI_IN_PAK/

Apart from the above - Sri Lanka has Won Againast Australia at Home and has not played in australia for a while whereas Pakistan has Lost against Australia both at home and away. http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1998-99/AUS_IN_PAK/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_AUS/

Sri Lanka has drawn the Home Series against South Africa and Lost the Away Series, OTOH Pakistan Lost the Home series and Drew the Away series http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1997-98/PAK_IN_RSA/ http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1997-98/RSA_IN_PAK/

Against England -
Pakistan Drew the Away Series - http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001/PAK_IN_ENG/
Lost the Home Series - http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2000-01/ENG_IN_PAK/

OTOH Lanka Won the Home series and Lost the Away series against England.

I am not adding India because India has not travelled to Pakistan.

AK

28

Asif, you are getting into a complete different topic, we are comparing Srilanka to Pakistan, the confentrations between them, not Pak vs Zim or any other team, I am saying that both teams are equally the same according to the stats, you can figure on Paks performance against other teams.
For example when India defeated Aussies fare and square, did it meant that India is better than South Africa because Australia just defeated South Africa.
Or South Africa defeated India in couple months in test series, does that mean that South Africa is better than Australia, you just can't look at the performance between other teams, we are only comparing Pak and SL and the confentrations between them, not against Zim or Eng.

29

[quote]
Originally posted by UMAIR316:
Asif, you are getting into a complete different topic, we are comparing Srilanka to Pakistan, the confentrations between them, not Pak vs Zim or any other team, I am saying that both teams are equally the same according to the stats, you can figure on Paks performance against other teams.
[/quote]

Not at all, Both teams are equal Head to Head but If compared over all Sri Lanka is much better than Pakistan and at present is no. 3 Team in the world whereas Pakistan is at no. 7 . Now I will give you another example :- India and Australia have played 10 Tests(4 Series) between them India and Australia both have won 5 Tests Each. Now If I consider your Logic then India and Australia are similar teams ? But in reality, are they ?? Only a fool can say that because despite losing to India Australia have been very consistent in beating any other team.

[quote]
*For example when India defeated Aussies fare and square, did it meant that India is better than South Africa because Australia just defeated South Africa.
Or South Africa defeated India in couple months in test series, does that mean that South Africa is better than Australia, you just can't look at the performance between other teams, we are only comparing Pak and SL and the confentrations between them, not against Zim or Eng.
*
[/quote]

I am also comparing Sri Lanka to Pakistan and If you see the Stats - Sri Lanka is a more Consistent Team than Pakistan regardless of their Head-to-Head Comparison. And That, My friend, makes Sri Lanka the best team in Asia.

AK

30

WHen you gave the example of Australia and India, you are talking about the whole history between the 2 sides, I am only talking about the recent series between the two sides.
If you look at the all time history then Westindies should be above every single team.

I guess you have no idea what I am saying, Iam only talking Pak vs SL, not SL vs other teams, ICC table doesn't prove anything but both sides performance against all the teams in the world, they are their only for moment, what if Newzeland wins the series against England right now, and NZ goes to NO 3 on the table, does that mean that NZ is
better than SL, no chance.

31

[quote]
Originally posted by UMAIR316:
WHen you gave the example of Australia and India, you are talking about the whole history between the 2 sides, I am only talking about the recent series between the two sides.
[/quote]

Umair, If you check your earlier posts, you will notice that its you who has provided the history of Sri Lanka -Pakistan matches from 1994-1995 series untill 2002. And I didn't talk about the whole history of India-Australia series but only the ones played from 1997 untill the last one 2001 series (Still One Year less than you). Because over all Australia is much ahead of India.

[quote]
If you look at the all time history then Westindies should be above every single team.
[/quote]

You are wrong, Australia would still be the best team, West Indies were good only in 70s and 80s.

[quote]
*I guess you have no idea what I am saying, Iam only talking Pak vs SL, not SL vs other teams, ICC table doesn't prove anything but both sides performance against all the teams in the world, they are their only for moment, what if Newzeland wins the series against England right now, and NZ goes to NO 3 on the table, does that mean that NZ is
better than SL, no chance.
*
[/quote]

Well I am talking about consistency in performance by Sri Lankan Team and Pakistani teams. and Right now Sri Lanka is way ahead of Pakistan and India in this regard. How long this consistency last, well time will tell, Instead of Playing Nostradamus, Lets wait and watch. Icc table proves one thing - That is consistency, If NZ wins against Eng then NZ may become no. 1 but Sri Lanka will wot be far behind (on No. 4) they will have to prove themselves better than NZ by winning their Next series. If they win they are better If the lose they are not.
For Pakistan to Catch up with Lanka, It has to win at least two more series, despite of its good record against the Lankans.

I know you will not accept anything, You dont accept ICC rating, you have your own rating and according to that Pakistan is DA BEST TEAM in the world. Please continue to think so, we know the truth. I tried very hard, but it seems you will continue to live in your world, happy dreaming

AK

32

Go back and look at the whole post and tell me where did I say Pakistan is the best team in the world, I only said Pak and SL are even teams.
You are right only tme will tell who is more consistent, both teams played against so called the two best teams in the world(SA and Aus) and failed by a big margin, eventhough Pak fought longer.

33

Umair and Asif_k, I think both of you have more than made your point and it is time to stop as any further discussion will not contribute anything more to your respective postions.