Pakistan's great history

I don’t see much on Pakistani history here. A lot of Indians appear to be trying to claim Pakistani history as their own, such as the Indus Valley culture etc. I would like to propose an educational thread that people can contribute to (perhaps people want to forget pre Islamic history but there is much knowledge and significant impacts on world history that Pakistan has contributed to). I think that every Pakistani should be aware of what their own long history is, and should seek to prevent Indians and others from taking the credit for Pakistani history. I wasnt sure where to put this thread, but I chose here, as there’s no other place for it (to be moved as appropriate).

To start a discussion I would like to begin as far back as the first significant part of Pakistan’s pre Islamic history - the Indus Valley civilization. India of course claims that this is part of their history. Nonsense I say. All the major settlements (and majority) were along the Indus River eg. Harrapa, mohenjendra. I’d like to name a couple of famous people from Pakistan’s past history such as Panini (grammarian but a Mathematician whose work is still used today) and Brahmagupta (his Mathematics treatizes had an impact all round the world). An important civilization that was basically Pakistani (but referred to as Indian) was the Kushan Empire. Indeed a very advanced Empire, that was located on the Silk Route.

It’s highly unlikely that Hinduism was ever practised in the Indus Valley, but many others were such as Buddhism, Vedic traditions, and of course Islam. Is all of this an identity worth saving and indeed promoting?

Re: Pakistan's great history

Nice to know noone has the slightest interest in this. Go back to talking about Meera and Pakistani cricket. Nothing to see here, move on folks.

Re: Pakistan's great history

Good point.. Our land, our ruins, obviously that doesn't mean we should be stuck in the past, demographs change, people change, their identities change but you are right all that doesn't change the histroy of their land and it makes a lovely read in the history books so yeah Indus valley is Pakistan's history just as that South Indian king (can't remember name) who built all them fancy temples in Southern India is India's heritage 'till the Tamils and what have you get independence.

I find it funny how India thinks it's the "daddy", the original South Asian country, an ancient nation say like the Greeks or Egyptians which it is not, it is just as artificial as Pakistan, created by the British in 1947 (not because they felt intimidated by Gandi ji's dhoti or Jinnah bai's cap but because they feared the likes of Mangal Pandey and wanted to leave with dignity before they got their butts kicked, our passive and docile father's of the nations' got all the credit whereas it was the rebellions and those that layed down their lives who did the real work).

Anyway I'm going completely off tangent as usual.. But yeah it's annoying when Indians act like India is this ancient nation and Pakistan something superificial, both are superficial as each other, both created by the ferangi British colonists and part of various other empires before them, just because more or less all the regions comprising the presentday countries were under the same empire for a certain amount of time does not make them a nation or an ancient country because even today they are multi-national states instead of nation proper, so never mind a few thousand year ago.

Re: Pakistan's great history

It's more than just history books, it's the whole image of a country that can be created through its history.

[quote]

I find it funny how India thinks it's the "daddy", the original South Asian country, an ancient nation say like the Greeks or Egyptians which it is not, it is just as artificial as Pakistan, created by the British in 1947 (not because they felt intimidated by Gandi ji's dhoti or Jinnah bai's cap but because they feared the likes of Mangal Pandey and wanted to leave with dignity before they got their butts kicked, our passive and docile father's of the nations' got all the credit whereas it was the rebellions and those that layed down their lives who did the real work).

[/quote]

Gandhi did not want to see Pakistan created. The Islamic religious groups did not want to see Pakistan created. The only people who wanted Pakistan created were the ordinary Pakistanis and Jinnah/Nehru combination.

[quote]

Anyway I'm going completely off tangent as usual.. But yeah it's annoying when Indians act like India is this ancient nation and Pakistan something superificial, both are superficial as each other, both created by the ferangi British colonists and part of various other empires before them, just because more or less all the regions comprising the presentday countries were under the same empire for a certain amount of time does not make them a nation or an ancient country because even today they are multi-national states instead of nation proper, so never mind a few thousand year ago.
[/quote]

As you said I think, Pakistan was the real India. India is after all the name derived from the Indus. Jinnah's small lack of foresight in letting Nehru choose India could be seen here

Re: Pakistan’s great history

The geographical region that forms Pakistan has been at the crossroads of Aryan, Arab, Iranic and Indic influences. These mostly enriching influences, together with a strong indigenous character of the region, have given rise to an identity that can be termed Pakistani identity. Many of us may look down on some customs of Indus Valley people, or we may find ourselves completely divorced from the theological beliefs of our predecessors, but we can not deny that from these territories have sprung some of the greatest civilizations in the history of mankind.

Re: Pakistan's great history

Yes, the Indus Valley People were an incredibly advanced civilization for their time. Note the Indians trying to steal this part of Pakistani history by claiming the Indus Valley is of Dravidian origin, when in fact, it's a completely undecipherable, unknown script that has been used.

Some very interesting facts about the Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan.

  • The value of Pi was probably known to the Harrapan people as long ago as 4000 years ago..evidence from metallic rim around the circumference of wheels of bullock pulled carts.
  • The Harrappan civilization had the first system of measurement in the world. *]The world's first navigational system using the stars was invented in the form of Harrapan instruments to measure the horizon - 2000 years before the Greeks or so. And many more..

Re: Pakistan's great history

Pakistan's history starts after 14 August 1947. Before that it's all sub-continent.

Re: Pakistan's great history

I see..so the history of a people are tied to a name? You change the name, you change the history of the people?

Did Pakistanis just fall from the sky in 1947?

Re: Pakistan's great history

Neither history is tied to a name nor Pakistanis fell from the sky in 1947. You can not call Pakistan's history what happened before 08/14/47. That's Indus Valley Civilization, which is now known as Pakistan.

Re: Pakistan's great history

Why play with the semantics? The whole gist of this thread was to talk about Pakistani people's history..That was obvious from the opening post. Let's not spam this thread with arguing about pointless semantics of the thread title.

Re: Pakistan's great history

Pakistanis and their history is composed and comprimised by groups and races namely Dravidians, Indo-Aryans, Persians, Greeks, Scythians, Parthians Kushans, White Huns, Afghans, Turks, Mongols and Arabs; who travelled through these areas. You cannot just call their history Pakistanis.

Re: Pakistan's great history

According to roadrunner's argument, everything that happened within the current political boundries of Pakistan should be considered the history of Pakistanis. If that is the case, than what do you do with the Indus Valley civilization? It stretched all the way into the current boundries of India as well (see: Lothal). Who determines what was an important settlement and what wasn't? Who decides what country should keep the history of those people? I see some major flaws with the argument that Indians should detach themselves from any historical events that occured within the boundries of Pakistan. If tommorow India and Pakistan become a single country, would Indians magically gain so much history? Your argument is based on current political boundries. If history has taught us anything, its that in the greater scheme of things, boundries are pretty insignificant.

I agree with Man with a Plan. The "History of the people of Pakistan" is a sub-category in the main category of the "History of the Sub-continent".

Re: Pakistan's great history

As an Indian I have no problem sharing our history, and claiming the achievements & civilization belonged to the people of both the countries.

The problem occurs in the minds of some Pakistani's who do not want to be associated with any civilization which was pre islamic. The Egyptions have always felt proud of their pre islamic civilization, including Pharoahs, piramids etc.

Re: Pakistan's great history

We have a shared heritage all the way up to the creation of Pakistan...
I dont see them claiming indus civilization as part of their history as a problem.
I will go up one and say that Pakistan and India should combine their tourist sectors so both countries can profit from tourists to their respective historical monuments. Pakistan should have access to the mughal heritage sites in India and Indians to the religous and cultural sites of Pakistan. But ofcoruse, this will be a long way of.

Re: Pakistan's great history

The Kushans, the Scythians, the Afghans, the Mongols, the Turks, ALL these groups settled in Pakistan and as such are part of the Pakistani people's history. You cannot be trying to say that before 1947 Pakistani people did not have an ancestral history. This is simply not true. Pakistani people have a very long and distinguished history, and the Indus Valley civilization is one of the earlier recorded examples of this.

Re: Pakistan’s great history

Good stuff, I’m glad you brought this up. Look at the map below. Some sites of the Indus Valley Civilization extend into Afghanistan also. Does this make the Indus Valley Civilization an Afghanistani civilization. The answer is no. The reason is that only a handful of sites existed in Afghanistan. In the same way you can see that about a third of the sites were in India and about two thirds were in Pakistan. So what does this make the Indus Valley Civilization. Clearly it’s a Pakistani civilization, with parts in Afghanistan and India.

Wait a sec. You’re getting this mixed up. Indians do claim the Indus Valley Civilization, the Kushan Empire, the Hunnic Empires, the Aryan rule as part of their own history. This is not true, these were Pakistani based Empires (for technicality sake, these were Empires that were created and staffed by ancestors of Pakistani people, not Indian people). Currently, all Pakistani Empires, are called Indian, so if the two combined, India wouldnt gain anything anyway. Pakistanis should know their own history, and call a Pakistani historical Empire, one belonging to the ancestors of Pakistani people, rather than the Indian people.

I disagree. This is what Indians would like to hear. Reason is they can claim that Pakistan should not have seperated from India. Pakistan must develop its own image, identity to shrug off the Indian propaganda that India and Pakistan are culturally and historically the same.

Re: Pakistan's great history

I agree with this. Some Pakistanis do not want to remember their pre Islamic history..or do not care about it. And it makes it easy picking for other countries to claim it.

Re: Pakistan's great history

This isnt true. Before Pakistan was created. India and Pakistan were very much seperate countries.

Here is a summary of Pakistan's history (or for the pedanticity in some people, here's a summary of the history of the peoples of Pakistan)..

*Pakistan from 3000 BC to the present: *

  1. Indus Valley Civilization: 3000-1500 B.C. i.e. about 1500 yrs. Independent, separate from India.

  2. Aryan period: 1500-522 B.C. i.e. about 978 yrs. Independent, separate from India.

  3. Small semi-independent states: 522-326 B.C. i.e. about 196 yrs. Under the suzerainty of Iran's Kayani (Achaemenian) Empire.

  4. Conquered by Alexander and remained under his successor: 326-300 B.C. i.e. about 26 yrs. Under Greek rulers, not part of India.

  5. Province of Mauryan Empire which included Afghanistan: 300-200 B.C. i.e. about 100 yrs. Part of India, mostly Buddhist rule.

  6. Graeco-Bactrian period: 200-100 B.C. i.e. about 100 yrs. Independent, not part of India.

  7. Saka-Parthian period: 100 B.C.- 70 A.D. i.e. about 170 yrs. Independent, separate from India.

  8. Kushan rule (1st phase): 70-250 A.D. i.e. about 180 yrs. Pakistan-based kingdom ruled over major portion of north India.

  9. Kushan rule (2nd phase): 250-450 A.D. i.e. about 200 yrs. Independent, separate from India.

  10. White Huns and allied tribes (1st phase): 450-650 A.D. i.e. about 200 yrs. Pakistan-based kingdoms ruled over parts of north India.

  11. White Huns (2nd phase--- mixed with other races): 650-1010 A.D. i.e. about 360 yrs. Independent Rajput-Brahmin Kingdoms, not part of India.

  12. Ghaznavids: 1010-1187 A.D. i.e. 177 yrs. Part of Ghaznavid empire, separate from India.

  13. Ghorid and Qubacha periods: 1187-1227 A.D. i.e. about 40 yrs. Independent, not part of India.

  14. Muslim period (Slave dynasty, Khiljis, Tughlaqs, Syeds, Lodhis, Suris and Mughals): 1227-1739 A.D. i.e. about 512 yrs. Under north India based MUSLIM govts.

  15. Nadir Shah and Abdali periods: 1739-1800 A.D. i.e. about 61 yrs. Iranian and Afghan suzerainty, not part of India.

  16. Sikh rule (in Punjab, NWFP and Kashmir), Talpur rule in Sind, Khanate of Kalat in Baluchistan: 1800-1848 A.D. i.e. about 48 yrs. Independent states, not part of India.

  17. British rule: 1848-1947 A.D. i.e. about 99 yrs (1843-1947 in Sind). Part of India under FOREIGN rule.

  18. Muslim rule under the nomenclature of Pakistan: 1947-present. Independent, not part of India.

The above table reveals that during the 5000 years of Pakistan's known history, this country was part of India for a total period of 711 yrs of which 512 yrs.

[quote]

I dont see them claiming indus civilization as part of their history as a problem.
I will go up one and say that Pakistan and India should combine their tourist sectors so both countries can profit from tourists to their respective historical monuments. Pakistan should have access to the mughal heritage sites in India and Indians to the religous and cultural sites of Pakistan. But ofcoruse, this will be a long way of.
[/quote]

As it stands this is not a problem, but the Harrappan civilization is referred to as an Indian civilization (through lack of foresight by Pakistan), more correctly Pakistan and India can share the Indus Valley civilization, as can Pakistan and Afghanistan (since some Indus Valley sites were located in Afghanistan), but the majority of the sites were located in what is now known as Pakistan. So this makes it an ancient civilization of the Pakistani people.

Re: Pakistan's great history

Like I said people, demographs change.

The societies and empires which inhabited South Asia in the past are part of the history of our region and make a interesting read in the history books but the ethnic groups which inhabit these regions today are completely different.

Both Indians and Pakistanis have an unhealthy obsession with the past history, culture and civilisation, stop living in the past, live in today, e.g. it doesn't matter where Jatts came from thousands of years ago you changed racially and culturally and are ethno-nationally Punjabi today and religiously Sikh or Muslim not some ancestor worshipping European.

I just consider myself a Muslim and a Pashtun, simple; don’t need unnecessary baggage.

Mohenjadaro, Gandara, Harapa, Mughal empire etc. are part of the history of my land but I don't feel ethnically attached to them, my culture today has nothing in common with those people.

It's as senseless as Caucasian Americans claiming Cherokee heritage as their own.

The Ancient Greeks and Egyptians are different case, they're still pretty much the same people, India/Pak is a larger area and were always ethnically very diverse and even if they have inherited some blood from the past people of our region we're not the same people anymore.

History yes, heritage no.

Re: Pakistan's great history

Noo, this is not true (well the mohenjendaro not being part of Pashtun heritage is true). But all the people of modern day Pakistan have either their own histories, or they are mixed in with people that have other histories. Example of Moheejendaro. These descendants of these people are currently living in Pakistan. Some might be a bit mixed, some might not be, but their ancestors (some of them), were the people of Mohenhandaro. It is part of their heritage and part of the history of the land.