There’s a big debate in Europe (in yesterday’s NYTimes there was a big article about foreigners living in Denmark.. totally amazing.). It discussed the plight of 2nd generation Turkish migrants. It was so interesting to see their views about racism and how the foreign society posed mitigating restrictions on them. That is certainly not the case in the US. Let’s hear from Pakistanis living in Northern/Western Europe about how the foreign cultures imposes such restrictions of them that it is so hard to relate to your native culture and it is even harder to relate to the one your parents forced you into. Other than economic benefit, what else have you adopted, and what have you repudiated from the culture of your ancestors.
In my case, I have learnt to view differing opinions objectively, which was not the case in the culture that I grew up in.
There was a case in Germany last year where a young 3rd generation turk was deported to Turkey for some crime he had committed. The guy in question had spent all his life in Germany and could not even speak turkish! The main reason for being able to do so is that the "krauts" do not give nationality to immigrants.
In France, muslim school girls are not allowed to wear scarves. The policy the French work on is "Forced Integration". However even after integrating, the "frogs" treat immigrants (esp Moroccans) very badly and there are some establishments where immigrants are not allowed in!
In Britain however, there is no "Forced Integration" and asian communities are allowed to thrive. Nationality is given to all immigrants if they fulfil the criteria. However the down side to this policy is that muslim asians (Bengalis & pakistanis) generally do not mix in society and stay in there communities. As a result, there is a widening gulf between the achievements of asian muslims and the sikhs/hindus, who are good at integrating and therefore are successful. Infact there was a TV program a few years ago which stated that asian muslims are the "new underclass" of Britain (overtaking the Kaalays).
I do not know too much about the Scandinavian countries so I will not comment.
Being a true paindoo I like to wear shalwar kameez and had to give it up for jeans which hurts and you feel like in the prison of clothes.
Other thing, I used to be quiet but noticed if you don't talk too much then people think that you are not friendly and all and hence I had to give up my quietness.
I agree with you, NYA. I think I have learned to view things objectively as well. There is just so much hatred in Pakistan against things that if you look at objectively does not make sense at all. I think I have learned tolerance, which may be a gift of shear education; but I attribute it to West. What have I kept? Probably everything else...especially, the family values. I think even with all it's faults, Pakistan is still the number one place for me.
[This message has been edited by Dopey (edited December 24, 2000).]
One thing that i learned here which i couldn't in Pakistan is HONESTY. And one thing i miss the most is 'KHALOOS', us Pakistanis have a lot of "Khaloos", which these Gorras and ABCDs are lacking.
honesty and khaloos still exist in pakistan..
as they say..u get wht u deserve!..
good and bad ppl are everywhere!..
if u consider urself a honest person then there are millionz like u!..obviously most ppl think they are honest!..not until u r told by sum1 ur a dishonest person..
mr-fraudia..v r not here to apply this hand in hand policy!..
The concept of 'forced integration' is quite intriguing.
And yes, after reading Bhola's post, I am also wondering whats the difference between an honest person and a purkhaloos person? But then this may be just semantics.
I am sure we all are interested in knowing more about specific instances instead of generalization, as to how ppl here have faced the culture clashes.
I remember, my khala who was visiting NY, told me when she came back, that in once instance she and her daughter were having icecream in a busy NJ neighborhood, when several red-necks passed lots of lewd comments and rude remarks directed at their dress. Both of them were wearing shalwar-kameez-chaddar.
I dunno if this is a common sight or not. I hope not. But I definitely feel, USA is less racist than some of the European countries e.g France, Germany and Denmark. Is that true?
ok may be i was not clear, so i will re-define what i was saying ..
honesty: the system here is honest, well more so than pakistan, we can trust the police, trust the goverment, the politicians. they are not all perfect but a lot better than pakistan. there is less 'chor bazari' here , less 'frauds'.
khuloos: people in pakistan are more friendly, more 'mehman-nawaz', they will go out of their way to help you , there is more love ... may be because we are same people ... here we are always gonna be immigrants.
does honesty == khulloos ?? not always.
I will given a simple example, if you are with a gorra, and you do something bad, or dumm, or he doenst like you, they will be honest, and tell you , in which case you will feel insulted. now the gorra is just being honest. now if its a desi, he wont be honest, he will ignore, or just pretend that nothing happened, wont make you feel bad, may be laught at you when you are not there, or do 'chuglee' but atleast wont make you feel bad. ... it's something little, but i have hard time adjusting to it. People here are too blunt, they will hit you with an insult right away without hesitation. Us pakistanis are little more careful in that regard, we always thing twice before passing on a comment, so that we dont hurt the next guy.
One thing that I feel that I have acquired is a much broader outlook on life in general. And that means better mental flexibility, tolerance, and a unique perspective on life.
It's not so much that the people here have it. They are often not much broader minded in many ways than those back home, despite infinite opportunities (TV!) to widen their horizons. It's that having lived in different types of societies myself, I can see that they are all functioning groups of people, and because one is OK doesn't mean that the other, simply because it isn't the same, is not OK. There are lots of ways to be right.
I used to think that here time is much harder to get for leisure, but I see that things are changing back in desi-land as well. I used to think that human values were more important back home but as you get to know the society where you live you discover other ways of evaluating these values. Your neighbour may not invite you for a meal but if you end up in hospital they will do everything they can to help your kids.
As desis we love to invite people for meals. After years of getting very few invitations back, we have let up on that - even the desi community is very lacksadaisical about entertaining. We no longer expect invitations back - so when they happen we are surprised. Italians will land up here with a bottle of wine - often it turns out as "payment" for the dinner. But they feel they cannot offer us something comparable as a meal at home so they don't invite us very often. Well you can tell this is something we have been upset about - but have gotten used to by now.
I said honesty and khaloos go hand in hand because you can not be pur-khaloos/sincere without being honest as well. would a dishonest person be sincere? if he is not honest then he is being fake, and thus the "khaloos" is just for show and does not mean anything.
we are comparing apples and oranges in your example.
NY, to answer your question i feel that by being abroad I have picked up the best traits of both cultures and avoided/given up weaker traits of both cultures as well..or i try to do that as much as possible.
[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited December 28, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Bhola#1:
**
People here are too blunt, they will hit you with an insult right away without hesitation. Us pakistanis are little more careful in that regard, we always thing twice before passing on a comment, so that we dont hurt the next guy.**
[/quote]
If desi's were not so over sensitive they will not feel hurt by a bit of honesty. Haven't you heard honesty is the best policy. you may be sparing the feeling in the short term.. but is that really in the other person's best interest? khuloos is when you actually do something for the benefit of the other person.. not sparing his hur feelings for you.. telling the truth in such situation required tact.. which of course is completely out of the nature of desi's. can't be tactful if their life depended on it.
just because desi's are not tactful does not mean they are purkhuloos.. quite the opposite most of the time.
I would rather have a gora who would tell me the truth with some tact.
Salamz..
I honestly am sick of sterotypes!!!
Desi/Fobs Blah Blah and American/abcd’s yada yada yada..
o.k i just had to take that out of my system!
When i first came here my perspective about life was very one dimesional but now its multidimensional. I was very naive about everything and i still am on certain issues. But Alhamdullilah U.S has enabled me to strive for things.
And All thanks to Sarah Blaksmith who made me a stronger person.. way back in middle school..