Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
and who is the judge for someone being 'responsible' or not? is it US? UK? UN? all of which are very irresponsible themselves.
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I tell you very honestly Captain what I feel from inside, You are trying to pretend him just coz of he belongs to your land, a pure muslim like you and a founder of your country's nuclear technology but that does'nt means he could cross his limits.
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Yes I am defending him because he belongs to Pakistan and without him we may not have the deterrent we have today, we would have to rely on someone else to defend us militarily.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
captain is right, freedom that we enjoy today wouldnt have been posible had we not had people like AQ Khan, we wouldve been living in the state of fear. I dont think he didnt anything wrong by transfering the knowledge to other (oh-so-called irresponsible countires) islamic countries.
It reminds me of the hadeeth : a muslim is a not a proper muslim until he wishes for his brothers what he wishes for himself. From Islamic point of view, he did the right thing but ofcourse your so called responsible countries are not going to like all this but then if all people keep thinking what they like that then we aren't going to get anywhere (i.e what most gutless, spinless muslim leaders are doing). Im so proud of him and people like him are ray of hope for muslim ummah.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
captain, can you provide some credible proof that the military was behind it all? please seperate facts from fiction, and dont just respnd by saying 'we all know'...
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Nuke is top secret program and Dr AQ Khan was a VVIP, all personnel who work in secret labs/programs are always followed by CIA people, given the sensitivity of nuke programs ISI also remains in the scene. Who AQ Khan meets, where he goes, whom he talks to, his financial transactions... every single step is monitored, if he was sellling something worth millions of dollars and involving nuclear technology there is no way ISI/military will stay on sidelines and let him earn all those millions of $$$. You asked for "credible proof"???... I am sure you not asking for receipts of money received by military personnel etc.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
on another note, whilst he did help in the nuke program, there were many other people involved in the creation of Pakistan nuke program. Pakistan would have been a nuclear power with or without him. But he did help.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Also all nuclear technology was not sold to Iran as Hollowman said, else Iran would be capable of enriching enough Uranium to make a bomb, which it is not yet capable of doing.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
the guys you’re talking about know that suicide is haram in islam, and therefore such goals are still very realistic in conventional terms.
however, i was referring to the individuals within the establishment…the people who used bechara AQ Khan as a scapegoat for their state-run nuclear supermarket.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
That is just plain speculation, nothing concrete... Also, can you explain what you mean by the 'military'? You are speaking as if every jawan or sipahi in the military was involved... Also, how much do you know about the ISI, do you know any inside information, perhaps you can tell me where their HQs are located at, and then maybe I can be convinced that you know enough and are conveying something that you have hands on knowledge about. I mean if the ISI is really so 'covert' and 'mean' like you say it is, we shouldnt know much about it, let alone who and when they spy ppl...
can you also explain why there have been US scientists, even in recent times who were recently been caught by the US govt and were leaking secrets to China? Now dont tell me these scientists had 100% backing from the US Govt or military or CIA. How ddi they manage to sell technology in a country where there is about a thousand times more financial monitoring and surveilence than Pakistan, let alone their superior secrurity and intelilgence. If they can have rogue scientists doing that, so can we, or any other nuclear power.
You guys dont even realize that AQ Khan didnt play a big role in shaping up to go ahead with the n-tests. KRL isnt the technological brains behind it, its PEAC. Sadly, its just that those who see AQ as an Islamic hero have a hard time admitting he sold technology. Based on their perception on their hero, I dont think they should be complaining, I mean all he did was accept money, and hey nothings free right? I strongly believe he didnt just do it for the money, part of him had other motives, some of which can be beneficial if the people he sold the technology are trusworthy and show restraint.
p.s. If you goto Pindi/Isloo anytime soon, you should go visit some of the lavish kothiz he built around bara-kahu and a big one right next to rawal dam with an underground aquarium.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Spock for a top secret/defense project you don't really need to know how well they are monitored and protected. When I said 'military' it doesn't mean the whole military of course, I thought that was common sense that only some part which is associated with defending such projects will be involved.
What do we know about crimes of BB and NS? Do we have 'concrete' proofs? If we had those proofs then wouldn't next govts be able to get them prosecuted in courts? But we all know that they were involved in so many scams, no? This crime is similar to those crimes in sense that no traces are left behind as 'concrete' evidences .... hence they get called as 'speculations'.
I am not saying he is 'Islamic' hero, he is simply hero of Pakistan and that in selling the technology to other countries he wasn't working alone. Government(s) used him for their interests.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
^ We have concrete proof against Nawaz Sharif and Benazir, if you are interested, I can show you some stuff myself, pretty concrete, one of them would be NS's own taxes, which you will be astonished to see.
Again, I repeat, people say 'the government' was involved, but theres been no credible evidence, and why do you think that the US Government stayed quiet, if you know the government was involved, they would know too, but they dont think so. We do have alot of independent rogue elements in Pakistan working without the governments interference too.
I really dont consider AQ an hero (or maybe not a hero of this national stature), not because of the 'technology selling incident', but because of the fact that someone else's hard work goes uncredited. We must, as a nation learn to give credit to the actual person who worked dilligently rather than someone who does not believe in engineering ethics. As for this cancer fiasco, some people are saying its all a big drama, but whatever the case, wish him a speedy recovery.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Not many countries in the world have developed nuclear weapons without some ambiguity, intrigue or 'deception' surrounding their nuclear programs. Pakistan was perceived as a threat for some other reasons. Obviously the world is concerned about proliferation and 'holy warriors' getting their hands on such weapons. However a number of countries (Canada, UK, Russia, France etc) can be accused of proliferation because they transferred nuclear know-how to countries like India and Israel in one form or the other. In Pakistan's case, any proliferation is history (not a good news for Delhi), and the idea that these nuclear weapons will fall into the hands of some terrorists is rather ridiculous. These weapons are not hand-gun bullets which everyone can use. Besides, Pakistan has a solid control and command structure in place now. In so far as knowledge is concerned, you can get it from a number of places. Converting this knowledge into weapon is not a joke.
I would like to share this article that appeared in Daily Times on June 23, 2006.
Whenever I introduced Munir Khan to a friend I would say light-heartedly “and this is the father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb” just to enjoy the pleasure of watching the reaction. Khan himself would give a self-depreciatory smile. As Hans Blix, the former director of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the world’s nuclear policeman, put it to me, Khan was “a cheerful soul”.
The world has been told over and over again that the father of the Pakistani bomb was AQ Khan, the metallurgist, who in fact ran only one part of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission whose chairman was Munir Khan. More correctly we have recently been told that Qadeer Khan secretly set up an international network to supply the likes of North Korea, Libya and Iran with blueprints and materials for the manufacture of their own nuclear weapons. This was done for his private profit.
Khan and Khan. Too many got the two men muddled. And this worked in Qadeer’s favour. He was a man who had no compunction about claiming every bit of credit for himself and who loved to woo gullible journalists and parliamentarians who adored his tales of achievement. No wonder when he was finally exposed as a nuclear racketeer President Pervez Musharraf couldn’t have him arrested. He had become a popular icon in Pakistan, untouchable.
A long and well-researched article that has just appeared in the Pakistani Defence Journal, written by MA Chaudhri, has usefully drawn back the curtain on the precise roles of these two men. Both foreigners and Pakistanis, he writes, “have failed to understand the underlying efforts under Munir Khan and his team of world class nuclear scientists and engineers. They developed and led the entire nuclear weapons programme including uranium mining for the bomb itself, and all related nuclear facilities, training institutions and technologies and the development of the complete nuclear fuel cycle and the still-largely-unknown plutonium programme.”
Munir was a friend of Zulfikar Bhutto and the two of them tried unsuccessfully to persuade President Ayub Khan to build a bomb. But when Bhutto became president in 1971 he made his famous remark “we shall eat grass if necessary but build the atomic bomb” and Munir was given the green light.
Munir had been on the staff of the International Atomic Energy Agency since 1958, head of the reactor engineering division. He developed vast international contacts and was rich in managerial and scientific experience. It was he who pushed for the refinement of domestic uranium and persuaded the French to train his scientists in enrichment know-how. Munir later recruited Qadeer who, as is well known, brought to Pakistan the drawings of centrifuge designs he had purloined from the Dutch company he had been working for. But to develop these designs to enable the successful enriching of uranium was a complicated and complex process and depended on the expertise Munir had put together in Pakistan.
All along the pathologically ambitious Qadeer was working to undermine Munir. According to Chaudhri he paid journalists to accuse Munir of being unpatriotic and belonging to the ex-communicated Qadiani sect. (Earlier the Nobel prize winning physicist, Abdus Salaam, had been driven out of Pakistan by a similar campaign.)
*After the coup by General Zia and the hanging of Bhutto, Munir’s grip was loosened. Zia, seeing Munir as a friend of Bhutto, allowed Qadeer to build up his image. Qadeer was willing, as Munir was not, to trumpet the idea of an “Islamic bomb”. Munir, self-effacing to a fault, later confessed that he should have fought off Qadeer’s grab for fame. Nevertheless, Munir still held the reigns when in 1983 Pakistan reached an historic milestone — the bomb was ready and secretly a “cold test” was held. (A cold test is the actual detonation of a complete bomb but instead of enriched uranium in the middle of the bomb natural uranium is substituted.) So only nine years after India’s “peaceful nuclear explosion”, but 15 years before it came into the open with a full nuclear test, Pakistan had its bomb. *
Munir retired from the chairmanship of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission seven years before Pakistan went public with the bomb. He died in 1999. In his later years he tried to persuade successive presidents that Qadeer was selling Pakistan’s know-how for profit. But by then Qadeer was simply too powerful to move against.
Munir was no saint. He was chairman of the board of the International Atomic Energy Agency from 1986 to 87. Supposedly the chairman of the world’s policing authority, back home he was engaged in subverting it. Presumably earlier, when he had been an important staff member, he was building up the contacts and knowledge he later milked to build the bomb at home.
The world was duped many times over by the intrigues of Pakistan’s nuclear scientists and the politicians who sponsored them.
Jonathan Power
(The writer is a leading columnist on international affairs, human rights and peace issues. He syndicates his columns with some 50 papers around the world)
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Again, I repeat, people say 'the government' was involved, but theres been no credible evidence, and why do you think that the US Government stayed quiet, if you know the government was involved, they would know too, but they dont think so. We do have alot of independent rogue elements in Pakistan working without the governments interference too.
I really dont consider AQ an hero (or maybe not a hero of this national stature), not because of the 'technology selling incident', but because of the fact that someone else's hard work goes uncredited. We must, as a nation learn to give credit to the actual person who worked dilligently rather than someone who does not believe in engineering ethics. As for this cancer fiasco, some people are saying its all a big drama, but whatever the case, wish him a speedy recovery.
Very true indeed. Please see the following :
Reference held in 2003 in memory of Mr. Munir Ahmed Khan, PAEC chairman 1972-1991.
Reference in honor of late Munir Ahmad Khan held :
ISLAMABAD: At a reference held in Islamabad Wednesday evening glowing tributes were paid to late Munir Ahmad Khan former Chairman of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission who died four years ago in Vienna from cardiac complications.
Dr. Samar Mubarakmand Chairman of the newly created strategic production complex, Dr. N.M. Butt scientist emeritus at the PAEC and Farhatullah Babar spokesman of the Pakistan Peoples Party addressed the reference meeting held under the auspices of the Islamabad chapter of the Ravians Association.
A large number of former Ravians, as the old students of the Government College Lahore are called, attended the function held in the memory of a fellow Ravian.
*Dr. Samar Mubarkmand recalled how late Munir Ahmad Khan nurtured, guided and inspired his younger colleagues in the implementation of the nuclear programme ranging from uranium prospect ion, mining, making of uranium gas, fabrication of nuclear fuel, to the making of the nuclear device and to the selection and development of test sites in the Chaghai mountains in Baluchistan so that when the time came the actual blast could be carried out at a short notice. *
He said that Pakistan's nuclear capability was confirmed the day in 1983 when the PAEC carried out cold nuclear tests under the guidance and stewardship of late Munir Ahmad Khan. The tests however, were not publicly announced because of the international environment of stiff sanctions against countries, which sought to acquire nuclear capability.
Fifteen years after the development of Chagahi sites and cold nuclear tests it fell to the luck of Dr. Samar to lead the PAEC team, which blasted the bomb five years ago.
*"Munir Khan was both a visionary and a doer who planned goals and targets at least ten to fifteen years in advance and then set out in all earnestness to achieve those goals". *
Dr. Samar said that the initial work for the setting up of the Kahuta enrichment plant was also carried out under the stewardship of late Munir Ahmad Khan who selected its site and put in place the basic infrastructure of manpower, machines and materials for it.
*He said that as many as nineteen steps were involved in the making of a nuclear weapon ranging from exploration of uranium to the finished device and its trigger mechanism. *
Dr. Samar Mubarkamand said that the technological and manpower infrastructure for eighteen out of these nineteen steps were provided by the PAEC under the leadership of Munir Ahmad Khan who led it for nearly two decades from 1971 to 1991. Today all the major key scientific organizations linked to the country's security like the PAEC, the Kahuta Research Labs and the strategic production complex were run and operated by Pakistani professionals produced by the policies of the Commission both under him and Dr. Usmani of producing indigenous trained manpower, he said.
Late Munir Ahmad Khan was however kept most secret the achievements of the Commission as he thought that publicity would damage the programme. After his retirement Munir Khan however realized that it was not wise to keep a very low profile as it pushed into oblivion many of those who helped make Pakistan nuclear, he said.
Scientist emeritus Dr. N.M. Butt said that late Munir Khan was also greatly respected in the international nuclear community. That was why even after his retirement from the Commission he was invited to international meetings on issues of nuclear diplomacy and kept visiting world capitals for this purpose.
Dr. Butt who retired several years ago as the head of premier nuclear research center called PINSTECH near Islamabad is now scientist emeritus at the same institute.
N.M. Butt said that Munir Khan worked quietly away from the glare of publicity and projection and within the parameters of rules and regulations. He also quoted from the writings and speeches of important state functionaries who had worked closely with Khan on the nuclear policy and issues testifying to the impeccable integrity of the former chairman of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission.
Dr. Butt said it was time that a full account of the PAEC's achievements and the role played by Munir Ahmad Khan was documented and made public for the benefit of the posterity.
Farhatullah Babar said that Munir Ahmad Khan played several roles in life ranging from as Chairman of the PAEC, to the informal spokesman of the third world for acquisition of nuclear technology, to the unofficial advisor ship to the government of Pakistan on science and technology and as the first president of the Ravians Islamabad which honorary office he held for nearly quarter of a century till his death.
"In all these roles, Munir Khan has been succeeded but in none has he been replaced because he was simply irreplaceable", he said.
S. Bashiruddin Mahmood the first project director of the Kahuta research laboratories and the person credited in press reports to be behind the building of indigenous nuclear reactor also attended the reference meeting.
Known to friends as SBM, Bashir last year underwent severe grueling at the hands of American and Pakistani security agencies investigating whether Osama Bin Laden had acquired nuclear weapons through clandestine means before he was finally acquitted with indelible emotional scars. Professor Dr. Ijaz H. Khawaja of the International Islamic University and Secretary General of the Ravians conducted the proceedings.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Someone's tax numbers don't really reflect their criminal activities, all it does is tells us that he knows how to play with tax rules, same goes for almost all of our political leaders... (there might be some exceptions though)
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Again, I repeat, people say 'the government' was involved, but theres been no credible evidence, and why do you think that the US Government stayed quiet, if you know the government was involved, they would know too, but they dont think so. We do have alot of independent rogue elements in Pakistan working without the governments interference too.
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US government stays quiet on number of issues, they only pull strings when its in their interests to do. They don't use satellite pictures only to monitor any movements.
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I really dont consider AQ an hero (or maybe not a hero of this national stature), not because of the 'technology selling incident', but because of the fact that someone else's hard work goes uncredited. We must, as a nation learn to give credit to the actual person who worked dilligently rather than someone who does not believe in engineering ethics. As for this cancer fiasco, some people are saying its all a big drama, but whatever the case, wish him a speedy recovery.
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For every project there is a champion (the one who promotes, encourages, provides resources etc), to Pakistan Dr AQ Khan was the champion of that project, he wasn't the sole developer of nukes, he was probably the accelerating factor when he brought the technology to kick-start the project or take it off the ground - hotly sought in those times by ZA Bhutto.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Wrong, tax evasion is a criminal activity, last time I checked. There is ample proof against Benazir and Nawaz Sharif, even available internationally (in case of Benazir), but 'no' proof of what you just accused the Government of, except speculations and fiction.
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US government stays quiet on number of issues, they only pull strings when its in their interests to do. They don't use satellite pictures only to monitor any movements.
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Its in their interest to point out 'if' the Government was selling nukes to Iran. They rightly pointed out it was a rogue scientist, and pulled their strings.
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For every project there is a champion (the one who promotes, encourages, provides resources etc), to Pakistan Dr AQ Khan was the champion of that project, he wasn't the sole developer of nukes, he was probably the accelerating factor when he brought the technology to kick-start the project or take it off the ground - hotly sought in those times by ZA Bhutto.
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Accelerating factor? A person who works and develops something is the accelerating factor. You should perhaps read what the KRL did, and what the PEAC did. AQ is just a hero to those that rely on newspapers for information about the program. Nuclear technology is no joke, real scientists like Munir and Samar worked very hard on it, and its just sad to see how people still think AQ was some sort of a genius.
Re: Pakistani nuclear scientist has cancer (merged)
Tax evasion is something which almost every one does, there are very little number of people who are honest about their tax numbers, esp high profile people. NS, BB are from those majority, so their crime of tax evasion is a common crime, they have performed many more crimes like getting large-sum loans sanctioned for their personal projects then using their influences to get loan-pardon. There are kick-backs in Motorway, Hub, Cotecna, Yellow cab, but I haven't heard of them getting implicated in those crimes (?).
We can agree to disagree, some people don't think AQ Khan as hero and some do, simple.