Pakistani neocons?

This is a hurried but I believe a cumulative reply to some members here but specifically to Big Daddy. Big Daddy you were civil and asked a question in a polite manner. I appreciate that. I am not calling you a neocon sympathizer, I wanna let you know that.

Yankees don’t give a damn about Pakistan, about lives and Pakistan’s national interest. We have an entire corpus of examples to what happens when a nation becomes a proxy to another usually when it is ruled by a corrupt dictatorial oligarchy. It is the yanks which have brought the instability in Afghanistan and Iraq which they can’t control. Musharraf sided with them yet still he gets blamed or rather Pakistan gets blamed in such an abusive shameless manner. .

On top of that, there was no organized terror infrastructure in tribal areas until the incompetency of Bush and Mush. The former for its failed policy which has disenchanted the world and the afghans, and Mush who instead of standing up for Pakistan’s interests and sovereignty sold the country with flamboyant rhetoric. Funny. It didn’t solve anything and instead brought in foreign fighters into Pakistan(chechens, uzbeks, arabs, afghans etc…) and then he still had a chance of going about with sagacity dealing with the sordid affairs but instead the one call troll of washington sent in the troops: who got defeated with casualties on both sides largely Pakistani..then he sent in more firepower and radicalised more people and made it into a righteous struggle by a people who had nothing to do with 9/11, Osama and so forth. After all, top Alqaeda operatives were captured in major cities in all 4 provinces of Pakistan.

And now i is sad to see these fascists, these cruel misguided, dictator loving fools advocate more mayhem, more murder, more disintegration of Pakistan. Bomb this, bomb that. Have not the yanks done so in Afghanistan? Rapid indiscriminate carpet bombing with moabs and daisy cutters? Have they squashed what they refer to as taliban but infact are Afghan peasants?

Musharraf’s and his supporters actions of barbarity and cruelty will solve nothing but inflame situation further. A people will rebel and must do so if they feel the government does not represent them or their priorities. So how about a little humility first. These murders in Balochistan and FATA have done nothing but pitted Pakistani citizens against Pakistani military. The military which supposed to protect them.

No wonder instead of pacifying, army has become the most hated entity in the country, and fires have spread into hitherto peaceful and secure back waters of the country Swat, Waziristan, Bajaur and so forth.

And I don’t blame the Americans, it was never their job to watch out for Pakistan’s interest, pakistani lives, Pakistani liberty. We can criticise Bush’s regime in its own right true, but they didn’t carry the burden for Paksitan. We know they were ignorant o the regional politics, history and culture just like they were in Iraq and Somalia and Vietnam. It was our job to educate them by hook and crook. If Nawaz was in power, sure everyone would agree hat Pakistan doesn’t need to Get bombed defending a fanatical spartan regime. But trust me, Even in the US they did not anticipate such whole hearted sell out disposition from Musharraf, and the result is stil nothing is ever enough and his masters are still unhappy.

And if it was Nawaz, he would’ve taken even a harder line with the US, and US would’ve understood given that

Pakistan has always been Ameriophile and doesn’t want confrontation.
Pakistan has genuine safety and security concerns in the region.
A skeptic conservative approach of Pakistan is much better than no cooperation at all

And Nawaz would’ve been conservative in his approach because he would’ve known that his name and his party’s name is at stake. That the sensitivity in the area and the bombing of Afghanistan would cause Pakistanis angst and anger and that Pakistan army is also a conservtive army. That many in the top brass of Pakistan’s intelligence and military are also very sensitive about the pending doom about to befell Pakistan.
Infact I dare say, given the flamboyant militant gnarls of this incompetent musharraf who was then COAS with his stupid misadventures in Kargil, and hot air dramas in Agra etc. would’ve been foremost in keeping a lust ful eye on the crown if Sharif were to become or appeared weak. And god forbid if any indication of AQ Khan being questioned by the AMericans had come about, this yantha himself would’ve engineered some coup or assasination.

That is right, mush is a coward. He adopted this mantra of enlightened moderation and related yelps national interest, extremism, pakistan first, giving mixed messages to everyone in and out of the nation, when he himself is this situation because he is weak, and he’s a coward and he lusts for power. And unfortunately other than his assasination there is no way to get rd of him, much less put a check on him.

But Pakistan’s a volunteer army (largely peasant) and it is disciplined and my salute to those poor jawans who refused and those pilots who refused. You are real heroes. you are real soldiers.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

I’ve met him.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

Ron Paul debates Neocons (incidentaly and Indian American). August 2007

He is a classical Liberal. In the tradition of America’s founding father whom even the dirtbag Khalid Sheikh Mohammad praised. And I consider them no less than God’s prophets or at he very least enlightened men. After decades, a voice has emerged which reflects what US was supposed to be.

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Re: Pakistani neocons?

There is a difference between doing something for U.S. at the cost of Pakistan, and doing something because of a common goal that benefits both countries. Unless you are blinded by hatred for U.S., you will realize that eliminating Jehadi violence from Pakistan is our need to, and just America's.

The situation has become so bad that a cabal or Arab, Uzbek, Tajik, Afghan and some Pakistani warlords is trying to create a parallel states within our country run by local Mullahs through intimidation and might. Not too different from what they tried to do in Afghanistan in the late 90s. Open your eyes, FATA warlords are not serving Islam, they are fighting for power.

And U.S. is not the name of 'an' american politician. There are a variety of voices and it is our job to work with the rest of the world, including U.S., to achieve a common goal of peace.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

You tow the exact same line as Bush. Unfortunately. Blinded by hatred for the US? LOLZ It seems you are deluded as well as presumptuous. US is the best country in the world especially for its own citizens. Chalk that one down.

And their is absolutely no partnership with US only dictation to a dictator. A dictation which has caused chaos in the world and destabilization in regional politics.

We do have our problems which should be dealt with in our own terms in our own time, not through such decrepitude and certainly not from musharraf's failed regime. An unpopular illegal regime.

Yes and the situation has become bad, that's what patriots here have been saying all along: each passing day under this idiot Bush's puppet exacerbates the situation.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

Sultan Toora, You seem like an intelligent guy... so allow me to make two simple points to you. I am not trying to change your mind on anything just telling you how I approached the conclusions about the situation in Pakistan. This thinking is not from Fox news mind you. Most of the news I watch related to Pak comes from Geo, Ary and even our Pak state TV that we are able to get in US. So, please remember that before judging me to be an American desi who is brainwashed by its corporate media.

  1. I believe radicalization of islam is the gravest danger Pak faces. If we can not agree on this point then any further discussion is fruitless. I agree with you that it might as well have been revived by US-USSR cold war tussle and was sponsored by US for its interest. Everyone acknowledges that.

  2. Since I, and a lot more like me, agree with the nature of the danger we face - then the question is what can be done about it. The tribal land is a safe heaven for these loonatics - thats a fact. Fix it first and then clean up all the mosques and madrassas in the country. Ignorant mullahs spreading the massage of hate should be flagged and thrown in jails.

Can I kindly ask you keep your reply short and concise. Tell us what your thoughts are on what is the gravest danger Pak faces and how to fix it?

Re: Pakistani neocons?

Short reply you ask? LOL, It's something I've always struggled with, but I'll try to be concise. Thankyou BigDaddy.

It's good to know you get your news from Pakistan media. Trust me I have much more respect for Pakistan media than I have for US. It's good you get that news from Pakistani channels. Perhaps since they are new and fresh phenomena in Pakistan, they still hold on to idealism and pursuit of Truth and not just towing the govt.'s line like the news media in the US had done. US news media is now a business. Instead of reporting, it's become a sensationalist tabloid. OK, not all of them, Not even all the bignames in equal capacities. Perhaps Fox and its number 1 popularity examplifies the caricature of corporate for profit journalism in the US. Hence hats off to brave Pakistani journalists and mediamen. They are heroes. And more of a journalists then their many of their brethren in the US. And Americans themselves have turned to more smaller, independant, no corporate news sources and internet to get facts. Even late night comedy shows are more trust worthy than the main stream big whigs.

Funny thing: I see the pro Musharraf bandwagon in these and other forums, accusing the heroes of Pakistan's 4th pillar (media/journalists) the same as what neo conservative hijackers do in the US vis a vis dissent, opposing voices and muckrakers. I am absolutely not surprised.

Now,

1) Radicalism of any sort s always a danger, because beneath it are revolutionary forces. And though revolution sometimes becomes important (and Pak may quallify for that now) it's a risky business and many times sets the country backwards. We've seen this even in the controlled coup of 1999. So agreed. One of the dangers that face are Islamists, who want to impose a will whether or not people want it. That is different than people actually voting for more conservative, orthodox individuals in elections because then it has become the will of the people. About that we need not worry. But my point is to address any radicalizaton we need to adress the system which allows for it to burgeon. Even in the case of "elected" MMA, they had never had any majority or mass following in in any province and much much less in NWFP and Balochistan until Musharraf and mushraffism. This point needs much reflection.

2) Pakistan is a poor country, and the wave o fundamental christian bigotry is in full swing in the US. Fortunately, it is republic, a democracy and an iron clad system with bills of rights and independant judiciary. Americans are a great people and redress of this trend has begun. Remember, in case of Pakistan we have had these madrassah's for centuries. In fact most madrassah's are not even in the tribal areas. They are in heartland of Pakistan. These institutions ae part of a culture in Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and ofcourse the shiite equivalents in Iran. There areover 10,000 madrassahs, which are a sanctuary for the poor kids in this country, where the military leeches out the national funds better spent on education and citizen measures.

Of these madrassahs, only a couple half dozens are where outright indoctrination is done. Both issues need to be addressed. But do not buy into this hype of this madrassah being some kind of a bogey man inherently. It would be as irrational as this sensationalism in he West against Pak nukes. Blown ou of proportion.

These Islamist movements in Pakistan would be addressed and indeed were being addressed with much much more effective discourse and implementation during our "corrupt" democratic era of Nawaz and Benazir then they have been now. A dictator, on top of that a very weak inimical dictator and his approach towing the paranoia of the west cannot and has not done so.

So we agree on both points. There are even more pressing issue: rights of sectarian minorities. Note I didn't say religious minorities for in Pakistan they tend to do better than the our sectarian ones.

Yes, I do realize now that the reply is not concise. Oh well. Thank you for thy patience.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

Thanks for keeping it short. I agree with most points you make for example on Pakistan military as they are logical and make sense. But, for the sake of keeping it short can we only talk about radicalization of our beautiful religion? Again related to the two points we are discussing.

  1. We disagree on scope and nature of the threat we face. This is not a half a dozen madrassas. I wish it were that simple. If it was it would have been solved a long time ago. But, are we trivializing the problem by thinking its scope is this small?

  2. To solve this radicalization we disagree on what can solve this problem. You mention that 'we need a system/environment in which we can addresses this'. That my friend is exactly where the problem is. These guys dont play by any rules and are not bound to any particular systems - but their own. So we could have a democracy, monarchy, communism, martial law, dictator sponsed democracy or any other form of Government - it is my assertion that these guys will not change their modus operande. Take a look around - these guys blew things up in Saudi, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia the list goes on. Check how diverse their governments are.

The fact that Pakistan has military dictatorship currently makes little difference to them. Btw, I do and always have opposed military intervention in Pakistan politics but its a different problem and should not be lumped together with this.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

How many madrassahs do you think are supporting osama bin laden or the takeover of the world, destroying the western civilization and outright slaughter of non muslims through out the world? I ask this because this is what I hear from Bush lovers. Do you have any statistic where you can show me how many madaris are involved in preparing their enrollees in this global jihadist mentality?

Now I believe that they are only a few of these rogue institutions. Of these I perhaps only 1 or 2 inspire for global aggressive militancy. But that's besides the point. Even one is one too many, any kind of fringe teaching or indoctrination must be kept in check and must be challenged by the civil society. Infact I say, we should revamp the entire obsolete education system of Pakistan including the centuries old institution of Islami Madaris. However, what we have in Pakistan is a very different and much unrelated scenario tot he one espoused by Bush and his supporters (and that would ofcourse include Bush's loyal poodle in Pakistan).

What we have in Pakistan is like I have stated earlier a local phenomena whose roots and problematic archaic views have regional antecedents. We had this problem during the middle ages, we had it in British times and we and sure enough many of the countries in the area suffer from the same malaise. I speak of sectarian strife, mingling dogmatic dominant school of thought's views with the establishment's politics, and so forth. The West especially the US was never bothered by it and indeed shouldn't have been.

But what we have right now in the region and indeed in neighboring region is the manifestation of a Super power's paranoid mania. It's roots are based in ideology, archaism, imperialism and bigotry.

Not one Pakistani has ever been accused of any terrorism in the West. Not ever. Especially from Pakistan's Tribal areas. That's saying something. We were accused of sponsoring terrorism by local geopolitical entities especially India. Now disregarding the merit of those accusations, it was still a very regional event. The only country accused of sponsoring, training and exporting terrorism vis a vis direct confrontation with the West and US in the region was the Iranian regime. Now that's a discussion perhaps for another time where the exaggerated paranoia of the US and the underlying reasons maybe explored regarding both genuine and inflated concerns.

My entire point being that what we are doing right now are sowing seeds of discontent among Pakistanis. What's happneneg in Pakistan's northern border region, all the violence and anger against the military and of course the dictator was not there before. It has becoime a people's war. A people (Mehsuds, Afridis, Waziris) who have not been involved in (or atleast didn't exemplify the local problems of sectarian violence, ethnic conflicts and even the Pakistan state sponsored adventurism in India's turbulent regions etc.

The danger is that this has become a people's war against what they quite rightly perceive as an arrgant, destructive, imperialist crusade of a Hegemon. We see that in play in Iraq, In Afghanistan. And of course in Pakistan. Which is even worse because here is a regime, ruled by a cowardly dictator who was very much part of the "problem" and the defensive militant mindset who now uses arbitrary powers to kill people, women and children. He does not represent the people, he has absolutely no mandate, and he has done much more than he has been asked only to encourage more demands, more bootlicking by the neocon Hegemon. And he keeps doing it, for Muaharraf knows that this is the only life line he has.

Look at Pakistan today. it's been a downward spiral. Most dictatorships usually are. Add tothe mix a tin pot chattel dictatorship. The military's morale is at its lowest. And indeed schisms have appeared within the military. Again I salute those poor 1500 rupees a month salaried army peasants who refused orders, the upstanding officers and the pilots who question. They are the Heroes. Examples like them are the glue which beckons Pakistanis regardles of their geographical or lingual origin to hope for the better. That their allegianc eis to the flag and constitution of Pakistan. A flag and constitution this foolish tinpot chattel has insulted and violated.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

Re: Pakistani neocons?

(Message from the maker of this video):

"War Within, Pakistan Army. The objective of this video is not to impose any opinion but to brainstorm the masses. It shows what is going on in Pakistan, the defenders of the Nation become the killers of the Nation.

Music: Nusrat Feteh Ali

Re: Pakistani neocons?

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Re: Pakistani neocons?

We will need a Democrate in USA, otherwise the tyrant will never leave his kursi.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

Are you saying that the Democrate leader in USA will not recognise BB's 'Will' and ask Zardari to leave the PPP chairman's Kursi? Interesting.

Re: Pakistani neocons?

I said tyrant not Saheeds Mian Saheb. I hope you can differ :)

Re: Pakistani neocons?

This video gets very explicit after first couple of minutes, the main purpose of the video is to provoke Pakistani people against army and Pro-Jihad propagenda is clearly recognizable. I suggest you kindly remove the video.
Thanks