Had she specified the identity of the people she spoke of you would have a point.
Now that she hasnt, she is criticising a moral failing in pakistanis abroad. you may (IMO wrongly) argue the point that it doesnt really reflect reality, but talk of casting judgement on a public bbs is bs, because the identity of the people involved is hidden. its a perfectly valid topic to talk about and it isnt a personal attack in any way. personally i think most of the attempts at clamping this topic down arent really altruistic.
going back to the main topic, its true larki. we’ve forgotten a lot of our pakistaniness and muslimness, most of our heritage, both within and outside of Pakistan. when we leave our countries, most of us are afforded complete freedom for the very first time, and its usually then that one’s attachment to his roots and heritage is put to the test. Its one thing to put on a glitzy kamiz and a sindhi topi at Pakistan Mela and bhangra to Abrar, another to actually make more of that than just an image.
^where did i say that she was disclosing identities? I'm saying that she has no right to criticize ppl that she thinks are straying from their "culture" and whatnot. Whether these guys are fornicating or not, it should not matter to her unless it is directly affecting her or it is out of sheer envy. Shortly put, you hate what you can't get :)
Now to your point that "we've forgotten our heritage and muslimness". Do we need to be overly-attached to our traditions and heritage? No. Such rigidness gets your nowhere. You need to adapt to the environement as much as your principles allow you to. No need for this heritage bs to hold you back.
PS. I do not in anyway condone their drinking/fornication as my religon tells me it is wrong. All I'm saying that is that noone is a moral judge. Focus on your own flaws first and let it be.
why would you assume that is the motivation? tell me, if someone posts a lot against american atrocities, does that mean the reason is either envy or not being able to make naked pyramids of others?
define overly. define rigidity. i certainly dont consider it ‘overly’ attached to resent what is so obviously, absolutely alien to our culture as is this culture of sex and booze. so yeah, you adapt to the environment, but the moment one descends into behaviour absolutely incompatible with muslim and pakistani standards of morality you do deserve censure. this is NOT heritage bs.
the whole context of this discussion has been drinking and fornication. and you just seemingly argued that some flexibility should be shown in that direction. Im not talking about chewing paan when I talk about heritage.
im sorry, but everyone here is a moral judge and should rightfully be one. and there is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about moral issues. you dont expect perfection in others when talking about every topic from here to pluto, why this one?
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why would you assume that is the motivation? tell me, if someone posts a lot against american atrocities, does that mean the reason is either envy or not being able to make naked pyramids of others?
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this could be one of the reasons. Some people actually have this bug in their head that makes them think that they'r the moral gestapo and shove their thinking on others. Then some are who would like to do everything they are critcizing but for whatever reasons they cannot. That leads them to put up a front of this moral highness and a reason to avoid those activites. And how are you comparing some guys drinking to Abu Ghraib prison? It's like comparing apples and oranges. Read it again and you'll realize the stupidity in this contrast.
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define overly. define rigidity. i certainly dont consider it 'overly' attached to resent what is so obviously, absolutely alien to our culture as is this culture of sex and booze. so yeah, you adapt to the environment, but the moment one descends into behaviour absolutely incompatible with muslim and pakistani standards of morality you do deserve censure. this is NOT heritage bs.
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Define rigidity? Well someppl don't even like to be present in situations where this is alocohal. Now if you're in a different enviornement it is obvious that you would need to step out of your comfort zone and be flexible. By which I mean that don't drink but tolerate its limited presence in your surroundings. Not accepting that is rigidity. But again, I'm not a judge here. If that's how you are then so be it. I respect that. Everyone is different.
And i totally agree with you. Booze and sex are not part of our culture. But that's not what i'm talking about. My point is that just because you're a Paki does that mean that you HAVE to follow these traditions? Absoultely not. One has a right to discard these shackles. And again this should be of no business to someone else.
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im sorry, but everyone here is a moral judge and should rightfully be one. and there is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about moral issues. you dont expect perfection in others when talking about every topic from here to pluto, why this one?
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again, who made you the moral judge? What somebody does should not be any of your interests. Stop obsessing about what "immoral" stuff others do and engage your mind in something else. I guess here on msg board it can fly, but not in real life. One can tolerate this kind of BS from parents but not from some strangers who the only thing u share with is your native country.
I wasnt comparing the actions. I was comparing the motivation for condemning the actions. just because you condemn abu ghraib doesnt mean you secretly want to be a part of it. likewise, you just cant claim the motivation of having a discussion on morality is infact a desire to be immoral.
firstly, you are the person who brought in the rigidity aspect of it. the discussion focused on criticizing an extreme behaviour, and not tolerating other people drinking.
if one person has a right to be immoral, another has the right to view his actions as immoral. you dont HAVE to follow your culture, but seeing it undervalued impacts me too, because its my culture too.
everyone passes moral judgements, and debating them probably only makes them more educated. nobody is obsessing here, you’re just getting a tad too defensive.
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I wasnt comparing the actions. I was comparing the motivation for condemning the actions. just because you condemn abu ghraib doesnt mean you secretly want to be a part of it. likewise, you just cant claim the motivation of having a discussion on morality is infact a desire to be immoral.
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As I said before envy CAN be one of the reasons for critcisizms. Not the sole reason. And in situation like these this is most rampant esp when coming from guys.
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firstly, you are the person who brought in the rigidity aspect of it. the discussion focused on criticizing an extreme behaviour, and not tolerating other people drinking.
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abey, you asked me to define regidity. So I gave you an example.
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if one person has a right to be immoral, another has the right to view his actions as immoral. you dont HAVE to follow your culture, but seeing it undervalued impacts me too, because its my culture too.
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Yes I guess view it as "immoral", not that it matters. But keep it to yourself at the most. One should look inwards first. Instead of gripping yourself with imperfections of others, deal with yours first.
Why does someones incongruence with their culture impacts you and what you practise? Are you so insecure with it that you need other ppl strictly following your intrepretation of culture.
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everyone passes moral judgements, and debating them probably only makes them more educated. nobody is obsessing here, you're just getting a tad too defensive.
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Debating and passing judgements are different things. Debating if something is right or wrong is far away from saying that someone's actions are wrong. I am getting too defensive? Dint mean to. Just wanted to clear few things that desis have trouble comprehending.
great. but since you dont know the personal circumstances of any of us, could you cut out the conjectures? it shouldnt matter what the motivation is so long as the topic is a valid topic.
because you brought rigidity in. the example you gave was irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Why should one keep what one views immoral to himself? If someone has no objection presenting his immorality before me, he should be able to take the criticism. not that this thread was ever about specific people to begin with.
kindly tell me where the insecurity lies. If anything I am too secure in my culture and religion being the ‘proper’ conduct.
and theres many ways this incongruence impacts us. One reason could be that I am very attached to my society and conservative culture, and deplore the impact this mindless western immorality will have on me, my family and my country.
what?? ‘something’ happens to be ‘someone’s actions’ in this thread. make up your mind if its right or wrong.
They have parades ALL OVER the city a week prior to Mardi gras (today). But today is the big day. It’s called ‘fat tuesday’. They give out a lot of beads. Girls are half naked in the parades already but this day, they top it off Before the guys on the floats give out beads, they tell the girl that she has to flash her breast and since poor girl needs the beads so badly to support her poor ill mother at home , she flashes. And ofcourse then all the guys around her stare at her, touch her, feel her etc. This happens in downtown ONLY, on bourbon street to be exact. If anyone tries to flash outside of downtown, you get arrested because those are families’ spots. I’ve never been to downtown because it’s just a mess. No place to park, no place to walk, 75%+ people are drunk, so mucn nudity and all that.
Today is Mardi Gras (the big and final day). All this is going on in downtown. I will be sitting home and doing my homework and then go to bestbuy if it’s open
p.s. My good friend Ahmadjee HAS TO post today or else we all will know where he is :rotato:
It is a guess, but a very reasonable one. And motivation does matter, it serves the purpose of figuring out the physche of this moral gestapo. This moral brugade only has problems with these activites becuase they personally can’t indulge in them. It’s aiiight man, atleast it gives those guys a cover and might boost up the shattered self esteem. Whatever makes them happy :). And it boils down to this: nobody gives a rodent’s prosterior of what this “selfrighteous” brigade thinks. This kind of response is expected just out of envy. So this discussion is useless.
shikra bhai, that sounds a lot of haraam fun. But I hope u don’t go there, otherwise we’d be seeing threads here on GS on paki intl students at Mardi Gras
No. I didn’t go this year. It’s a record. I had been going for 7 years and it used to be interesting but not it’s boring Mind you, I used to go to family spots free of nudity, not to downtown like ahmadjee
Look, people will fornicate and its not surprising. College kids are at a biological age where their bodies are telling them to do it - and yes, for those who can hold onto their religion and impose self-control and are successful at it - that's a big achievement. Refraining from having sex before marriage is not bad at all, although there is a lot worse you can do aside from fornicating.
Many of these kids come here for the first time and they're blown away by the openness of the society. You don't get that in Pakistan - there everything has to be done behind closed doors. And God forbid if someone finds out. Here, you can get away with anything - parents wont know, neighbors wont care to know as long as you're not making too much noise, fellow pakistanis live too far away to know anyway...
What I find disappointing is when these guys and girls will screw non-desis but then expect to marry a pious virgin Pakistani muslim. My girlfriend has been husband hunting for a few years, and she was trying the online thing a lot (no really it was my girlfriend, I dont think I'm at that stage yet thank-God), and she kept running into a lot of guys who would openly admit to her that they have had sex before, but they were wanting to make sure SHE was a virgin. After arguments about what is up with the double standard, she's drop her conversation with that guy.
I found that to be really bad. I dont mind marrying someone who has lost their virginity, but that person had better not expect me to be a virgin then. Or at least he better not make any demands about it - although I am still a virgin, it still makes no difference. If I was not a virgin, then what? The relationship would end?
Khair now I digress.
Second point is that many ABCD's or desis living abroad and born abroad engage in similar behavior. So what is the difference? FOB's or ABCD's - the same pattern exists.
As for PSA's being exploited for dating purposes - I agree its ridiculous and it happens a lot - but remember, the PSA's are not just set up by FOB's.
‘cant’? you make it sound like getting booze and sex is so difficult in this country. every oddball washed out homeless drunk epitomises the life our pakistani wannabe beatniks strive for..
we wouldnt be having this discussion if they didnt give a rodent’s posterior of what the self righteous brigade thinks. you wouldnt be inventing this complicated reasoning as to what motivates our contempt of this lifestyle if you didnt need to lessen the blow from your inner critics.
well well, dont brand everyone in this category, some people actually study as well. but you are right cause they are mostly from certain class in Pakistan. (though it doesnt depend on class anymore, but on friends or social circle)
some fell bit more liberty and no checks and they want to live it to the full. we shouldnt point them out cause what ABCD's and BBCD's doing ??
I myself was once an international student, i met hand out with every kind of guys . but i had set limits for myself so never crossed it. i never have to force myself. cause I dont like that stuff anyway.
you are also right PSA most of the time spend less time for Paksitani activities but become more as social club. That was one of the reason I was invloved in International Student Association only at my uni.
and you just found out Larki :) Pakistani International students have been coming here since the 1950's, 60's and doing the things you have listed above :) But then again not all of them are like that. There are exceptions!
Before the guys on the floats give out beads, they tell the girl that she has to flash her breast and since poor girl needs the beads so badly to support her poor ill mother at home 
, she flashes. And ofcourse then all the guys around her stare at her, touch her, feel her etc. This happens in downtown ONLY, on bourbon street to be exact. If anyone tries to flash outside of downtown, you get arrested because those are families’ spots. I’ve never been to downtown because it’s just a mess. No place to park, no place to walk, 75%+ people are drunk, so mucn nudity and all that.
Mind you, I used to go to family spots free of nudity, not to downtown like ahmadjee 