Pakistani Identity...

Re: Pakistani Identity…

Thats why I mean. Initially, when the first Muslims came from wherever it is they came from, they probably didnt bring the women with them, atleast not in large numbers. Later perhaps these women migrated, but its doesnt make sens for them to follow along with an invading army or tribe. Initially im sure that these tribesmen married local women, and since they could do this being the dominant power in the region. As time progressed, marriages outside the tribe reduced even further, until the Hindu bloodline become almost completely diminished.
This however only applies to those with paternal lineage that can be traced to someone of Muslim descent/.

Re: Pakistani Identity…

Thats true, but strictly speaking, that only means that our ancestors were Indianized. But at the same time, India was changed by them. The culture which we share, is amalagamation of other cultures aswell. Qawali for instance is a common thing across the border but it is also Afghani and Persian, in fact much of our heritage which we consider to be South Asian has Persian influences. Even architecture of Muslims in India have influence of Hindu as well as Arab and Persian…

Re: Pakistani Identity...

Ranjhan is right, NWFP and Balochistan have traditionally been under the influence of Persia and Afghanistan. NWFP only became part of British India reletively recently when the Durrand line was drawn up. NWFP, at deal of contact with India through Punjab, was for the most part not Indian. Pashto itself has similar words to Urdu, but I think thats because of the comman influnece of Persian and Arabic over the two languages, not some affinity to Hindustan. If you look historically, even from ancient time, while empires in Punjab and Sindhi extended into Hindustan, and were ruled by Hindu and some Buddhist rulers, the empires of NWFP and Balochistan were always on the periphery, changing hands over and over. Sometimes in the Hinads of Persian, Afghan, and sometimes Indian.
Its Sindh, Punjab and some parts of Kashmir I think that one can consider to have had the most consistent and deep Indian influence.

Re: Pakistani Identity...

Just look at the surnames of a lot of Punjabi Pakistanis. Chances are you will find a hindu and Sikh family with the same surname/tribe/caste.

You have Gujjars who are both Hindu and Muslim. Amost all Rajput Muslims were one time Hindus, same for Khatri Sikhs. All Kashmiri Butts were Hindu Brahmins at one time. Jats were Hindus before some embraced Islam and others adopted Sikhism.

Many tribes came down from the West into Punjab, but most of them adopted Hinduism before Islam came into the subcontinent.

Re: Pakistani Identity…

does not prove anything because punjabis and sikhs are just 2% of india’s population.

i am forever thankful to Aurangzeb, Ghauri and Ghaznavi for converting my hindu ancestors to Islam, and saving us from the fire of Hell

Re: Pakistani Identity…

lot of converted without being invaded. first indian to met porphet muhamed os from south.

Cheraman Perumal was the last of the Chera kings to rule Cheranad (ancient Kerala). Trade with Arabs flourished during the Chera reign. Interaction with the Arabs brought Cheraman Perumal closer to Islam. According to legends, the king accepted a personal invitation from the Prophet himself. He went to Mecca and converted to Islam around the 7th century. He is reputed to be the first Indian to become a Muslim. He died on his way back. But his last wish was honored with the construction of one of the first places of worship in Islamic faith outside Arabia. This is the Cheraman Juma Masjid, the first mosque in South Asia.

http://www.india9.com/i9show/14884.htm

Re: Pakistani Identity...

Re: Pakistani Identity…

Yeah, thats true…

Re: Pakistani Identity…

Yeah, thats true… I dont think the the tribes from the west could have adopted Hinduism though, you cant just become Hindu from what I know. Hindus dont prostelatize.
I think they would have became Buddhists first, since the region was predominently Buddhist at the time.

Re: Pakistani Identity…

Thanks for sharing dude, may Allah reward you with the good that will benefit you in both worlds. :k:

If what you say is true then Cheraman Perumal is a Sahaabi (disciple/apostle of the last Prophet :saw: ) and worthy of reverence by all Muslims, we should say Hazrat Cheraman (radhi allaah anhu).

Re: Pakistani Identity…

This is news to me! Never heard of this before.. Any other resource on this?

Re: Pakistani Identity…

there may be some source but not resource:Dwell by the way i m also weak in south indian history and geography like u.

Re: Pakistani Identity...

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Re: Pakistani Identity...

Indian element in pak’s identity

Anwar Syed Saturday 2, July 2005

Source: The Asian Age

I have been reading a volume entitled, The Final Settlement, prepared by a think-tank in Mumbai, called "Strategic Insight Group." It identifies the "pre-requisites" for a durable peace between Pakistan and India. I shall mention one of them here, for it is both intriguing and provocative.

The group maintains that contradictions in Pakistan’s self-perception work as a major obstacle to peace. Some Pakistani spokesmen trace their national origin to the All India Muslim League’s Lahore Resolution of 1940, making their state a protest against Indian dominance. Others trace it to Mohammad bin Qasim’s conquest of Sindh in 712 AD, which makes Pakistan a "representation of foreign conquests." A final settlement between the two countries will require Pakistan to perceive itself not as "non-India" and "not in terms of protest or conquest but simply as a normal and progressive state."

The group goes on to say that Pakistan is currently witnessing a contest between the advocates of socio-economic modernisation and the proponents of religious orthodoxy. Peace will more likely be made if the balance of power shifts in favour of the progressive and modernising forces.

Some of our own commentators have sought to establish our "non-India" character by appealing to our nativity. Mr Aitzaz Ahsan argued a few years ago (The Indus Saga) that the areas now composing Pakistan are the inheritors of a civilisation that flourished in the Indus Valley several thousand years ago, and that it was distinct and separate from the civilisation that developed in India of which the Indus Valley had never been a part. More than an affirmation of the Muslims’ separateness from the Hindus, the establishment of Pakistan in 1947 was a reaffirmation of the separateness of the Indus Valley from India.

In a recent article in Dawn (June 17), Sardar Aseff Ahmad Ali holds that our allegiance to Islam is only a part of our identity. Unwilling to say that we are in any sense "Indian," he observes that we are South Asians, and that we are the people of the Indus Valley. But, unlike Aitzaz Ahsan, he sees the Indus Valley as a part of the subcontinent. Its civilisation is not to be regarded as unconnected with developments in the rest of South Asia. He argues that religion alone cannot explain our nationhood: Muslims in other lands — Turks, Iranians, Egyptians, Iraqis, etc. — have each their own distinct identities, and they are proud of their pre-Islamic history. Why, then, can’t we take pride in the Indus civilisation? We must seek our identity in our own land.

Pakistan is not the same as India. True, but I should like to submit that the term "South Asia" has come into usage mostly since independence, and that the word "India" can be used in more than one sense. India is a state, but it is also the name of a landmass, a geographical region. Pakistan may then be seen as a part of the Indian subcontinent, just as it is a part of Asia. India is also the home of a complex and advanced civilisation of which we do partake to some degree.

Civilisations are not self-contained; they interact with one another. There is evidence that the Indus Valley did interact with the Iranian and Mesopotamian cultures. But what happened when Harappa and Mohenjodaro became extinct? According to the Cambridge History of India, some of the hymns in Rig Veda mention the Indus and all the five rivers of Punjab. A map showing territorial delineations around 500 BC places all of the Indus Valley in India. The rule of some of the ancient Hindu kings extended all the way into Afghanistan.

It would then be reasonable to conclude that as the Aryans consolidated their hold on the land, and as their men of learning articulated Hindu philosophy, codes, and mythologies, a two-way process of interaction materialised. The Indus culture found its way into India, and the Indus Valley itself was first Hinduised for some 2,000 years, and then Islamised for more than a thousand.

As we stand today, we are a mix of the aboriginal, Dravidian, Aryan, Semitic, and Mongol ethnicities; our beliefs and cultural expressions represent a mix of Animist, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Judaeo-Christian, and Islamic influences. These elements are at peace with one another in the personalities of most of us, as if they had been homogenised. It is hard to see why any of us has to apologise for the presence of a Hindu element in our identity: after all, the ancestors of many of us were once Hindu, and in today’s Pakistan many millions of Muslim individuals (Rajputs and Jats among others) carry last names, denoting caste affiliations they share with Hindus and Sikhs across the border.

The ordinary Pakistani links the matter of identity with his family, clan, tribe, village and, if his horizons extend that far, with his district and province. He is content with these identifications. The worrisome problem here is not that he is caught up in a crisis of identity, but that his identification with Pakistan remains nebulous. This applies to folks in the minority provinces more than it does to the Punjabis. The issue of identity becomes relevant in domestic politics basically with reference to the striking of a balance between the interest of the collectivity (the nation) and that of the regions and localities. The purists among us maintain that all elements in our identity other than the Islamic deserve to be expelled. But it so happens that the vast majority of Muslims in the world will not accept this advice. They want to keep Islam along with everything else that makes them what they are. Let me take a moment to recall an interesting incident. About 20 years ago, a friend of mine set out to establish a Pakistan Society of Western Massachusetts. The project encountered opposition from some of our other friends who argued that since we were all Muslims the fact of our being Pakistani was of no consequence, and that any attempt to firm up our Pakistani identity would dilute our Muslim identity.

The same argument has been made within Pakistan. The Punjabi and Urdu-speaking elite who dominated our government and politics argued that since we were all Muslim it did not matter who ruled and got a larger slice of the "cake." All talk of provincial rights and under-representation of other ethnic groups in governance was said to be simply mischievous. The majority of the Pakistanis in western Massachusetts did not accept this reasoning and went ahead to establish the organisation referred to above, which is still thriving. Nor has the idea of Muslim nationalism done any better in Pakistan: it has not kept the country together; its failure dramatised by the secession of East Pakistan in 1971. In the same vein consider also the emergence of sub-nationalism and the persistence of separatist feelings in Sindh, Balochistan, and to some degree even NWFP.

Those of the ruling elite in Pakistan who did not look to Islam as an integrating agent (for instance, Ayub Khan and Z.A. Bhutto) were nevertheless unwilling publicly to set aside the idea of Muslim nationalism. They chose to be ambivalent. They relied upon a "strong" Central government to keep the country together. The present regime, headed by General Pervez Musharraf, is doing the same. But we know that reliance on a "strong centre" is just as unavailing as reliance on our common allegiance to religion for promoting national solidarity.

Reconnecting with our Indus legacy, which in effect means recognising the presence of a Hindu element in our identity, may facilitate the process of reaching some kind of reconciliation with India. But it is not likely to be any more effective in bringing about national integration or unity than the other two agents mentioned earlier. A Sindhi nationalist may argue that if Islam is all that matters, he does not need Pakistan to be a good Muslim. Nor does he need a political union with the Punjabis and others to be able to honour his Indus legacy.

India, Iran, Egypt and numerous other countries have been in place for hundreds, even thousands, of years. They have their share of ethnic divisions and internal conflict. But that fact does not diminish the sense of belonging to the country that the people in each case have. They continue to be Egyptians, Indians, and Iranians even as they differ or fight amongst themselves. That is not the case in our country. The Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, and Pakhtun identities have existed for hundreds of years. But Pakistan is only 58 years old, meaning that we still have to get used to the idea of being Pakistanis.

This will not happen until opinion-makers in the minority provinces begin to feel, and tell their audiences, that being Pakistani is something good and profitable. They will not develop this feeling until they have a satisfactory level of participation in this country’s governance. They cannot have that kind of participation if authority and power vest mostly in the Central government. They can exercise power effectively only if it resides in the provincial governments. Hence their demand for provincial autonomy.

I am inclined to conclude that Pakistani nationhood will not mature, and national unity and solidarity will not materialise, until the bulk of decision-making power is transferred to the provinces. There was much talk of provincial autonomy a few months ago and Gen. Musharraf’s government appeared ready to concede it. The government was said to be contemplating constitutional amendments that would enable it to transfer power and functions to the provinces. But that talk has abated, and folks like Nawab Akbar Bugti have become mysteriously quiet. I will say that if the plan for provincial autonomy has somehow been swept under the rug, those who have swept it are no friends of Pakistan.

Re: Pakistani Identity...

This dude who wrote the article is as stupid as they come. The problem here is the truth, Pakistan doesn't have any history, nor does it have great historical cultures, traditions, or languages. The very word Pakistan is 50 some years old, let alone it's history.

Pakistan is a buffer zone between the Central Asian, Persian, and Indus culture. Pakistan will never have a true identity till it admits that it doesn't have one to begin with. It is neither Arab nor Indian, it is both. It has taken part of one and part of the other and curved a nation out of each other. None of the people that compose Pakistan are willing to let go of their own mother tongues, not just Pashtuns, Balochis or Sindhis. It is ridiculous to say that Pashtuns, Balochis, and Sindhis are more attached to their languages and cultures better then Punjabis. If Punjabis feel ashamed of speaking Punjabi, the same is the case with Pathans. I have noticed that if there is one Pathan and six Punjabis, all Punjabis will either speak in Punjabi or Urdu. But if there is one Punjab and six Pathans, Pathans will only speak in Urdu and if they know Punjabi, they will try to speak in Punjabi. The only Pashto a Punjabi will speak to a Pathan is “peeshta rawra naswar rawra ahahahhahah”. According to this guy now the Punjabis are the victims, please give me a fcuking break man. Pakistani Punjabi police won’t talk to you in Urdu, people in the embassy won’t talk to you in Urdu, and they didn’t even change their official language status while NWFP did already. They even objected NWFP for doing it because the pressure was on them. Urdu Karachi is a graveyard compared to Punjabi Lahore. Urdu movies are garbage compared Punjabi movies. I’m not even going to mention the status of Pashto movie or Peshawar.

Today Pathan Mullanas are known for their proficient Urdu, all kutbas on Fridays in frontier are in Urdu, all MMA meetings and speeches are in Urdu, MMA teachers in colleges and in universities encourage Urdu more then Pashto, they specially target the girls, the females. Something I encountered myself. The girls were being told to let go of the jungly language Pashto and speak Urdu the civilized language amongst your kids.

I bet you that 90% Pathans on gupshup speak better Urdu then the 90% Punjabis, 90% Pathans on gupshup don’t even know how to say thank you in their mother tongue.

Re: Pakistani Identity...

^^ Preach on Logo....Amen....I've come across so many poonjabis off the bat speaking punjabi with me and expect me to know it too.....Plus Pukhtoons can also pronounce urdu words a lot better then poonjabis and do not butcher the language because of being ganwars like poonjabis....

For Punjabis....
Taalluq is Taalaq
Waqt is Waqat
Mulk is Mulak
HuNsna is Hunasna
Matlab is Matbal....