Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

Here is an excellent review on this topic.

I agree with Dr. Ghamdi that ethics must be instilled first before talking about religious sheanigans.

Here we a great Maulana Sahib, who knows what he is talking about.

Mad-house-russahs (mudrassahs) must be closed down immediately and students transferred to secular schools. This is the only way to raise future generations in Pakistan.

The time has come to seperate Mullah from the education and other worldly affairs.


By emphasising “ethics” before a study of religion, Dr Ghamdi is clearly arguing that “ethics” and “religion” are two different categories, and religion, if it is to be understood in its correct perspective and not induce violent hatred, must be tempered with ethics. This is an incisive argument and by presenting it Dr Ghamdi has done a great service to this country.***

Read the rest at the following link

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\06\03\story_3-6-2006_pg3_1

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

my first counter argument against mr Ghamdi:

from that definiton one can understand the trouble sent into religious minds by Mr Ghamdi! dissociating ethics and religion is to promote atheism! because a philosphy that is excluding religion as grounding for moral code is the basis of an atheist ethics!
basically teaching ethics before religion is promoting atheism, but is that only reaslist to assume that in a religious society like pakistan people will accept not to teach any single muslim moral values to their kids before sending them to schools?
i mean kids are tought muslim way of life by their mothers and fathers in their very home, so religious education is absolutely a part of most pakistani kids growing up, anyway.

my second counter argument against mr ghamdi:
i personaly don’t believe atheist ethics is the appropriate answer to bigotism and religious stupid fondamentalism. i have learnt from talk to some young americans and muslims that bigotism is first promoted by the LACK of scientific knowledge and understanding.
ignorant minds need false explanation and gurus talks to appeas their fears. scientific explanations (physics, chemistry, biology, geology and obviously mathematics) and facts about the world : geography, history, economy; are the basic grounds to having sane minds who can think alone without endangering their countries.
ethics versus religion is a wrong question, and a wrong polemic.
Knowledge for ALL (both girls and boys) must be emhasized first! (before learning Quran by heart), and bigotry will slow down.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

yeah paris noor, maybe this is what we should follow instead:

FIRST GRADE

" Every religion other than Islam is false."

“Fill in the blanks with the appropriate words (Islam, hellfire): Every religion other than ______________ is false. Whoever dies outside of Islam enters ____________.”

EIGHTH GRADE

“As cited in Ibn Abbas: The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus.”

“They are the Jews, whom God has cursed and with whom He is so angry that He will never again be satisfied [with them].”

“Activity: The student writes a composition on the danger of imitating the infidels.”

NINTH GRADE

“The clash between this [Muslim] community (umma) and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills.”

“It is part of God’s wisdom that the struggle between the Muslim and the Jews should continue until the hour [of judgment].”

ELEVENTH GRADE

“Do not yield to them [Christians and Jews] on a narrow road out of honor and respect.”

Read full article here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769_pf.html

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

those BS that are fed to KSA students is revolting!
what about teaching them some maths and biology instead?

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

This is what anti-obl was saying, close these madhouses and open up proper schools.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education


no that is not the point of antibiol, read his post and read mine
if you don't understand something in my post, ask me question before attacking me

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

It takes great courage to speak the truth particularly when issues are made non-debatable as demonstrated by our lameduck PM.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\06\03\story_3-6-2006_pg3_1

Saturday, June 03, 2006
[ necessary from the beginning. Religious education… helps character building,” he said at the concluding ceremony of the conference. Mr Aziz added that the education system must be based on “Pakistani values and religious norms”. How should we look at these two arguments?

First, we commend Dr Ghamdi on his insightful argument. Equally, however, we think it most unfortunate that Mr Aziz, supposedly a moderate and “enlightened” gentleman, failed to grasp Dr Ghamdi’s argument, both for its intrinsic value and its contextual significance. Consider.

By emphasising “ethics” before a study of religion, Dr Ghamdi is clearly arguing that “ethics” and “religion” are two different categories, and religion, if it is to be understood in its correct perspective and not induce violent hatred, must be tempered with ethics. This is an incisive argument and by presenting it Dr Ghamdi has done a great service to this country. Since the benighted days of General Zia ul Haq, this country has mixed religion and ethics with disastrous results. Ritualistic piety has arrived centre-stage and upstaged every other value. One of its consequences is textual literalism that is Calvinistic, bigoted, sectarian and violent. But while “religion” provides the overhang under which we have been breathing for a quarter century now, humanism, civic sense, probity and work ethic have all made an unceremonious exit. Nothing can revive them unless we heed what Dr Ghamdi has said: that for religion to become meaningful, for it to become spiritual, for it to become socially relevant, we need to first study ethics. The young have to be exposed to ethics as the basis of humanity, the larger framework in which religion can be placed and the only way it can then be appreciated in its true spirit.

It is a matter of concern that Mr Aziz, instead of appreciating the vigour of Dr Ghamdi’s argument, chose to parrot the politically opportunist and cynical line that has become so familiar to us and which has been the bane of this society — religious education helps in character building and education must be based on Pakistani values. No sir, you are wrong on both conceptual and empirical counts. If religious education helped in character building we would not have had the spectre of religious violence that has consumed thousands of lives so far and shows no signs of abating. Similarly, there is no such thing as “Pakistani values”. Ethical values are universal and they are non-spatial and non-temporal. Surely Mr Aziz knows that. This is exactly what Dr Ghamdi is pointing out. Teach the children ethics so they can be saved from the essentialism of religion. Do not queer the pitch by starting with religion. Let young minds be exposed to a universalism that is essential for them to be good human beings so that they can become good Muslims. This makes sense. To say that a religious-minded Pakistani will automatically be a good human being is not correct. Our society is full of such religious minded “Muslims” who are bad human beings. We see the flaws of this sort of thinking in everyday life, from the workplace to the roads to the workings of the government and its functionaries. It is time to get rid of it.

Mr Aziz should reconsider Dr Ghamdi’s argument and see the merit in it. There is no point, political expediency notwithstanding, for a person of his upbringing and intellect to take the beaten path for the sake of politics and refuse to pick up Dr Ghamdi’s logic. Doesn’t the government want to instil enlightenment and moderation precisely because there is a lack of these in a “religious minded” culture of ignorance and extremism? Neither of these values can come without appeal to universal human values that are a function of ethics as it stands and not as a hyphenated adjunct with religion. Indeed, this is an issue on which the government should hold a separate conference and invite comment. It is important for us to understand the essence of what Dr Ghamdi is saying if we want to put this society and state back on the rails of humanism and civility. *](“javascript:;”)

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

1- insulting me is not a debate
2-copy and paste of an article is not a debate
3- i have posted an argumented comment that adressed the topic of the thread, no one has done it so far

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

^^ Oh Paris, Paris. Your stuff sounds oh so intellectual. However it has nothing to do with ground realities in Pakistan. May be we should stick to the topic of touring France this summer.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education


let's go to ground realities:

religious education is not a priority
basic education is a priority
teach math and science to your children

do tour france as you wish antibiol, i'm glad i won't be in france

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

Violence, hatred, and corruption taught in the name of religion. Or human values? Even a monkey could figure, a monkey without a beard that is ;)

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

They should make these madarssas much more acceptable.. That Madarssas equate to terrorism is not right... ex-president Ch. Rafiq Mohammed Tarrar had suggested that Huqumat-e-Pakistan should spent 7-10% of its budget in teaching about Islam to countries where Islam is not well known esp. the west and south-east. A lot of foriegners study at madarrssas too. ParisTonNoor'ji, you might consider touring one of them during your next visit to Pakistan ;)

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

Mad-house-russahs are a thing of the past. It is sad to see that they can't be reformed or made acceptable.

These Mad-houses should be closed down and funds be directed towards regular schools.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

:k:
but i am concerned that people don’t realise the very HIGH importance for pakistani people to educate themselves in ALL fields, not only islam!

First all: boys AND girls ! paki children should be given the opportunity to learn to read and write and grammar in their MOTHERtongue (around 5 or 6 years old)
Then they all should learn their second and third language: Urdu (from the age of 8) and English (from the age of 10)
They should also be given all basic calculus and geometry education (btw 5 and 10), and some natural sciences classes, using the nature around especially in rural areas could be helpfull.

All the above is a ground core of education that children depending on their intelligence could complete with some Quran and Arabic classes.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

but feudal landlords ruling pakistan with the former help of english, and current bribes of americans don't want their (cheap slave labor) people to get educated.

let's try to impose a tax on the 20% richest paki people to fund rural schools and education for ALL children ;);)

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

Were you born muslim or you got converted at a later stage? Most of the Pakistanis especially in villages and small towns prefer their kids to know Quran by heart- they should have all ayats memorized.. it would be hard to change this mentality.. respect for science and maths etc. is not there.. secondly, there is already a debate about changing national language from Urdu to something else.. sadly, there is very strong resentment (esp. in Punjab/Frontier) against Urdu- ppl think it is imposed on them and refuse to speak in any language other than punjabi.. since you are going to settle in Pakistan, I suggest you learn a little bit of Punjabi too.. maybe helpful. I suggest you settle in some village of Punjab or Frontier.. ppl tend to be warm in villages..

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

i got converted at 10
i know how people in villages like their kids to learn aya, i looked in the eyes of village people: they were so proud to tell me that their daughter/ son knew this and that part of the Quran, mashallah:blush:
but learning by heart something one doesn’t understand is extremely brainwashing! that’s why i share ghamdi (article author mentioned by the thread starting post) view it should be changed! that’s the only way for pakistan to “evolve”
but unlike him i don’t think people need atheist moral classes, i think instead people must learn respect for science and math because only people who know science, know how helpfull it is.

ps, i’m not learning punjabi but pashto, the mother tongue of my future spouse

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

Govt should provide Islamic education to the citizens.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

PPL are getting religious knowledge as well as general education. Do you beleive that all supporters of Mumtaz qadri who consider him hero are non educated. Infact there are many who highly educated. But eductaion ne unka kuch nahi bigara....

We need to be a tolerant society.. Relegious and sectarian tolerance is what is needed to be taught. Any one who is spreading religious in tolerance must be put behind bars.

Re: Pakistani education about ethics vs. Islamic education

People are getting religious knowledge.... True and sincere effort and seeking of religious knowledge would not let you allow to support Mumtaz Qadri ....
Knowledge should delimit and minimize the grey areas of understanding....