The concept of tolerance in our society is still at the primitive stages. However Mullahs in our country do not command that type of authority, which could lead to killing of thousands of minorities as witnessed in our neighboring country. There are disgruntled elements in every society, the difference being that our militants are extremely well “equipped” and to put in a rather crude phrase “have the balls to do it”.
Rajput, u stole my words. Well said :k:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
On another note: I will strongly defend spock, because he has said what most of us were thinking. Being a patriot does not mean being blind. If you don't believe that Pakistan has been radicalized, your living in fools paradise, and even moderates become angered when an event like 9-11 occurs in a country. Being a minority is tough, its even tougher when someone from your group commits an act of terrorism, so who are we kidding? The Mullas and the Politicos of Pakistan would be on standby in stroking flames of hatred.
[/QUOTE]
I'd love to strongly defend Spock as well, but I see some inconsistency here in that Spock is championing the USA when it comes to military force yet he doesn't seem to want the same rights for Pakistani citizens that US citizens enjoy (he's a big defender of the military dictatorship).
For all it's faults I guess the US has one major plus which all people will agree with. It represents it's people and their aspirations. At the moment, so does Pakistan, but really US can look after their own. Maybe Pakistan should start doing the same.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 5Abi: *
According to CAIR:
Number of reported incidents by State
Total number since Sept. 11: 1717
Interesting to see California top the list.
_________________________________________________________--
Dont forget that California is the most populous state!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks yara! Always glad to know there are people out there seeing reality.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
I'd love to strongly defend Spock as well, but I see some inconsistency here in that Spock is championing the USA when it comes to military force yet he doesn't seem to want the same rights for Pakistani citizens that US citizens enjoy (he's a big defender of the military dictatorship).
For all it's faults I guess the US has one major plus which all people will agree with. It represents it's people and their aspirations. At the moment, so does Pakistan, but really US can look after their own. Maybe Pakistan should start doing the same.
[/QUOTE]
Well I was not aware of the background info, however I don't understand why you would disagree with the statement: Hell would break loose in Pakistan if 9-11 type attack occurred and say the terrorists were Christians. There is no doubt that the radical elements would begin a systematic targetting of Pakistani Christians while there would be atleast a few politicians towing that same line.
As for your other statement, I agree. I mean the US can seriously look after its own. Even if one US citizen is under threat or in trouble, you sure can count on the State Dept or other US agencies to jump into action. In comparison, the Pakistani State could care less about its people, which is evident both foriegn or abroad. How callous can a government or to lesser extend society become to random bomb blasts, shootings and other horrible occurrences in the urban areas?
I think "looking out for their own" not only applies to the Pakistani State but also average folks like us. We should reach out and make sure we do support our own. It is damn pathetic that even in the US there is a nonstop proliferation of Paki organizations working supposedly for the benefit of the community, however in reality, they much like the Pakistani State, are looking out for their own narrow minded self interests.
Sorry if the pill is too hard to swallow, but sometimes we must look within before we criticize others.
Excertps frrom todays LA Times article:
**Frustrated U.S. Muslims Feel Marginalized Again **
By TERESA WATANABE, TIMES STAFF WRITER
A year after the Sept. 11 attacks, American Muslim leaders increasingly fear their community is being pushed to the margins of the American political system.
“On the political scene, we are back to square one,” said Hussam Ayloush of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. “In general, there is a fear that associating too closely with Muslims could be a liability.”
Until the attacks, Muslims had been making steady gains in moving into the American mainstream. Muslims were just beginning to win appointments to government commissions. Politicians were knocking on the doors of their mosques, asking for support. Muslims were becoming politically emboldened to run for office themselves—producing 700 candidates for local, state and federal offices in 2000, according to Agha Saeed of the American Muslim Alliance.
**Evidence of a hardening of attitudes against Muslims—at least on the part of some Americans—comes in several forms. So far this year, more than 20 books on the “Islamic menace” have been published. Two of those books are the best-selling titles among 7,219 books on Islam at Amazon.com: “American Jihad: The Terrorists Among Us,” by Steven Emerson, and “Militant Islam Reaches America,” by Daniel Pipes.
Leading figures among evangelical Christian denominations have made a series of public statements denouncing Islam as an evil.
And polls show that although Americans have gained familiarity with Islam, their increased knowledge has not led to greater approval. In a recent Los Angeles Times poll, 37% of those surveyed said they had a negative impression of Islam, compared with 28% whose impression was favorable.
While those surveyed had a more positive impression of American Muslims than of their faith, roughly a quarter said they had a negative impression of American Muslims.**
Politicians appear to be responding to those developments and are shying away from Islamic conferences, Muslim activists say. Not a single national politician appeared at a recent convention of 30,000 Muslims in Washington, D.C., for example. Najee Ali, an activist with Project Islamic Hope, said one member of Congress even told him she would be in a photo with him only on the condition that it did not appear in any Muslim newspaper.
Muslim activists say the ostracism extends to the White House, where Bush met with a group of leaders shortly after the attacks, then went nearly a year before seeing any of them again.
The recent arrests of six Muslims in New York on charges of supporting terrorism and the 17-hour detention of three Muslim medical students in Florida on suspicion of terrorism have only added to the American Islamic community’s worries.
To critics, the New York arrests amplified fears of an Islamic “fifth column” in America, while many Muslims see the Florida men, who were later released, as evidence of injustices caused by paranoia.
“The tragedy,” said Aslam Abdullah of the Los Angeles-based Minaret magazine, “is that American Muslims were working so hard to be accepted as equal citizens, and now all of a sudden they find they have to prove their loyalty all over again.”
American Muslims remain a small minority group; estimates have ranged from about 2 million to 7 million. Educating Americans about their faith has been a priority for Muslim activists.
The attacks clearly have increased the amount of information Americans have about Islam and its American followers. Books about the religion have become bestsellers; college courses have sprung up nationwide.
**And Americans clearly feel they know more about Islam now than in the past. In 1993, when the Los Angeles Times poll asked Americans their impression of Islam, fully 64% said they did not know enough to have an opinion. Asked again last month, only 34% said they knew too little.
That greater knowledge, however, has not improved the overall view that Americans hold of Islam. In the poll a decade ago, 22% had an unfavorable impression of Islam, compared to 14% with a favorable view—a margin virtually identical to the one in the recent poll.**
Many Muslim activists blame what one called “a troika of evangelical Christians, right-wing conservatives and the pro-Israel lobby” for their plight.
Indeed, the Times poll showed that unfavorable impressions of Muslims are stronger among Republicans than among either Democrats or political independents.
Many Muslims say they have found greater acceptance among ordinary Americans than among political or religious leaders.
Muslims like Gail Kennard, manager of a Los Angeles architectural firm, say they are reaching out to their neighbors. The terrorist attacks prompted her non-Muslim colleagues to begin asking about her faith for the first time, Kennard said. The questions were surprisingly basic, with inquiries such as “Do Muslims believe in God?” and “Do Muslims believe in heaven?” (Yes and yes). Prompted by the experiences, she invited non-Muslim friends to a Ramadan fast-breaking meal for the first time last year
Abdullah, for instance, envisions a new phase of American Muslim activism focused on showcasing Islam’s best ideals of justice and compassion through involvement in broader community issues of crime, homelessness and poverty.
Activists like Ayloush say they already have made the switch, spending far more time on community events than traditional political ones. “Gaining acceptance in America won’t come through ad campaigns or meetings with elected officials,” Ayloush said. “It’s by winning the minds, hearts and trust of our neighbors.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by seeker: *
Mr Spcock, not every Pakistani is as barbarian and ruffian as you are.
[/QUOTE]
I suggest you have a look at the anti-US demonstrations we had after the US attacked Afghanistan... Besides, youre an Indian, you probably think we are madrassah trained barbarians...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
I'd love to strongly defend Spock as well, but I see some inconsistency here in that Spock is championing the USA when it comes to military force yet he doesn't seem to want the same rights for Pakistani citizens that US citizens enjoy (he's a big defender of the military dictatorship).
For all it's faults I guess the US has one major plus which all people will agree with. It represents it's people and their aspirations. At the moment, so does Pakistan, but really US can look after their own. Maybe Pakistan should start doing the same.
[/QUOTE]
Xtreme bhai, in case you didnt know, I have never said the Military government in Pakistan is legitimate... I am all for democracy, and I personally hate the way our economy has been handled by this military government, and despite what people outside of Pakistan might think, the economy is truely in shambles here... But this does not mean I do not support my Government in a time of crisis, be it a military one. Wouldnt it look awful if I carry out my usual bickering against the Government, when they have locked horns with India?
However, I hail our Governments foriegn policies and the way they handled this crisis. Their policies regarding India have been excellent, and we have held out with dignity despite the two 'decisive battle' threats that they have made...
As for the mollah part... Even though their influence on people has greatly reduced, they are still a very vocal minority. I repeat, had this incident happened, and the parties could be switched, our mollahs would have made sure no Americans walked in Pakistan. They have already proven this numerous times too. However, they are still a vocal minority and their aspirations do not relfect the ppl of Pakistan in general, so my post was not directed against Pakistanis as a whole. If all of Pakistan was like this, the mollahs and khalifah lovers would have already made this another taliban type afghanistan.
btw, explain this to me... Its an analogy to what I said. Just because the MQM doesnt believe in what the MMA has to say, the MMA handled the situation in the typical mollah style, invading and looting the MQM office... Fundoism is still prevelant in the society, which is why I made that statement.
Attack on MQM election office in Karachi, 29 MMA activists detained
By Afzal Nadeem
(Updated at 1030 PST)
KARACHI: The police on Friday arrested 29 party activists of Majlis-e-Aamal (MMA), accused of an attack on the election office of Mutehda Qaumi Movement (MQM) in North Karachi, reports our correspondent.
The police sources told that an injured MQM activist, Adeel-ul-Rehman registered FIR at Buffer Zone police station, complaining that dozens of Majlis-e-Aamal activists attacked on their election office located at North Karachi, sector 15-A/2 and damaged it.
Meanwhile, the leaders of Mujlis-e-Aamal have accused that the workers of MQM had also attacked on the election office of Majlis-e-Aamal nearby Mosque Taha, injuring its five workers. They told the police have not registered the case and accused the police of favouring MQM.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Xtreme bhai, in case you didnt know, I have never said the Military government in Pakistan is legitimate... I am all for democracy, and I personally hate the way our economy has been handled by this military government, and despite what people outside of Pakistan might think, the economy is truely in shambles here... But this does not mean I do not support my Government in a time of crisis, be it a military one. Wouldnt it look awful if I carry out my usual bickering against the Government, when they have locked horns with India?
However, I hail our Governments foriegn policies and the way they handled this crisis. Their policies regarding India have been excellent, and we have held out with dignity despite the two 'decisive battle' threats that they have made...blah blah blah
[/QUOTE]
You may bring up facts and quotes.
But where is a solution to it!
Who do you think is gonna change ways of Pakistan?
Despite that the economy is much stabile than it was in the past I would like to know where you get your made up facts concerning the economy of Pak while this period?
Beta, the difference b/w me and you is that you tend to read the situation on the internet, and get pleased by all these forex reserves etc... If you actually pay Rs.40+ per liter petrol in Pakistan, as opposed to 20+ when dictator sahib took power, than you would know the true picture...
If anyone wants to discuss the economy of Pakistan, there is a seperate thread on it...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Beta, the difference b/w me and you is that you tend to read the situation on the internet, and get pleased by all these forex reserves etc... If you actually pay Rs.40+ per liter petrol in Pakistan, as opposed to 20+ when dictator sahib took power, than you would know the true picture...
[/QUOTE]
Spcock Beti, Please get a CNG car.....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by seeker: *
Spcock Beti, Please get a CNG car.....
[/QUOTE]
Seeker darling, I already have one, since 1996... But a CNG car also has a petrol engine, in case you didnt know...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
But a CNG car also has a petrol engine, in case you didnt know...
[/QUOTE]
I havent had my Car Mechanics 101 class as yet.....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by seeker: *
I havent had my Car Mechanics 101 class as yet.....
[/QUOTE]
Those are some of the advantages CNG has over Diesel... If you run out of gas, switch to petrol...