Pakistan Without Musharaf

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

http://www.dawn.com/2005/01/12/top1.htm

**“A system of real democracy is in place in Pakistan with the full participation of people who have been empowered like never before in the country’s history,” he (Musharraf)remarked, while talking to a visiting Canadian parliamentary delegation that called on him Tuesday morning. **

Full participation of people? who have been empowered like never before?? what the hell is he talking about? Things like this you read and then you wonder is he being honest with the nation in what he says and promises. Call the thing for what it is, why do you have to make a joke of yourself… just avoid the subject talk about Agra or Canadian maple or economics or something…

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

This statement still does not change the nature of the discussion on this thread, whether he is accurate. on the other hand what do you want him to say "hey we are a military dictatorship and deal with it"

wont do much for diplomacy now would it?

there is a parliament, and national assembly, comprised of people who were voted upon. there is the district level govrnment which is functoning fairly well from what I hear which is like never before in the country.

yaar take your personal distaste for Musharraf out of the equation, will help you be more objective :) and lets stay on course, rather than run to diff tangents.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Musharaf should at least have half of his brain cryogenically freezed in an event that he is killed or lives out his allotted years, so that he can come back from dead Dr. Evil style. He should also put aside a considerable source of his DNA and maybe even clone a mini-me of himself.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

**This statement still does not change the nature of the discussion on this thread, whether he is accurate. on the other hand what do you want him to say "hey we are a military dictatorship and deal with it"

wont do much for diplomacy now would it? **

So if you can’t say the truth for diplomatic or other reasons just keep the mouth shut or sing the national anthem or something instead of spewing lies and deceptive statements. When he makes statements like this and everyone knows that it is a lie he makes a fool of himself and his nation. The scary part is if he truly believes in what he is saying then good luck with democratic reforms under his leadership, he is not even recognizing that we have an issue.

there is a parliament, and national assembly, comprised of people who were voted upon. there is the district level govrnment which is functoning fairly well from what I hear which is like never before in the country.

Hear from Mushy and his cronies? Majority of the people are not seeing the affects of it their lives are the same as they were before him. All civil departments are headed by military personnel retired or non-retired. All meetings and decisions are being monitored and influenced by the military. Sure, like never before ! .. just calling a person Gadha doesn’t turn him into a Gadha, you might degrade him but you doesn’t physically turn him into a Gadha.

yaar take your personal distaste for Musharraf out of the equation, will help you be more objective and lets stay on course, rather than run to diff tangents.

Personal Distaste… hmmm.. you could be right but I would like to think otherwise…. I don’t have any personal issue per say with him… I do give him credit for what he did in the past few years but where I have an issue with is him strengthening himself in the position that was supposed to be temporary and the lack of effort on his part to address the most critical aspect of him promise “Stable and sustainable political system to ensure that history does not repeat itself…”

Oh and on the subject of topic and tangents.. this is/was very much relevant to the topic under discussion. If he makes statements like these and he believes in them he is undermining the whole effort of moving towards stable and sustainable political system which if we had will never put Pakistan’s fate in one individual’s hands.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

*So if you can’t say the truth for diplomatic or other reasons just keep the mouth shut or sing the national anthem or something instead of spewing lies and deceptive statements. When he makes statements like this and everyone knows that it is a lie he makes a fool of himself and his nation. The scary part is if he truly believes in what he is saying then good luck with democratic reforms under his leadership, he is not even recognizing that we have an issue. *

I personally dont think that Pakistani govt is any less 'representative' than it was during the rule of nawaz or BB. But then would they go and say hey there are problems in our govt and we are not representative? They wouldn't. You dont know the reasons he said what he said right.

** Majority of the people are not seeing the affects of it their lives are the same as they were before him. **

quite untrue, depending on what you mean by effects on their lives. My relatives in Pakistan are very happy, they are satisfied with the overall law and order situation and the significant drop in mob violence that used to take place along ethnic lines. there is less ghunda agrdee in schools, more opportunities for young people. etc etc

** All civil departments are headed by military personnel retired or non-retired. All meetings and decisions are being monitored and influenced by the military. **

What is the big difference in civil dept being led by a retired military officer, or some career bureaucrat? if he can run it well. during civilian rule all civil depts were run by their pals, military or civilian. And the meetings and decisions were being monitored and influenced by the govt.

Personal Distaste… hmmm.. you could be right but I would like to think otherwise…. I don’t have any personal issue per say with him… I do give him credit for what he did in the past few years but where I have an issue with is him strengthening himself in the position that was supposed to be temporary and the lack of effort on his part to address the most critical aspect of him promise “Stable and sustainable political system to ensure that history does not repeat itself…”

Do you notice a change in what is facing Pakistan today and how he has steered Pakistan out of deep trouble and on to a right path, that if adhered to can bring much needed progress in Pakistan.

If he makes statements like these and he believes in them he is undermining the whole effort of moving towards stable and sustainable political system which if we had will never put Pakistan’s fate in one individual’s hands.

As I said before, a stable and sustainable Pakistan comes before a sustainable and stable political system, and he is doing a good job of that. Although I wish that he would do more in brining about a sustainable and stable political system, if it means that it diverts attention from the first point then it can be placed on the backburner, lets keep making progress even if it is slow.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

I would be the last person to deny democracy in required in Pakistan-- however not with the choices presented..BB/NS. We cannot go back to that system. Honestly, after Zia's death, I had a lot of faith in BB. A western educated, intelligent woman being the premier of Pakistan was something to be proud of. However her tenure (first time) showed that she was no different from her father ZAB, along with a corrupt husband. The second time was more open and shameless looting of the country. NS screwed us all.

I like S. Aziz just like I like M. Singh of India. Both have a more economy based technocratic mindset. The key to Pakistans future is economics not politics. Politics is the destroyer of economic development by creating complications and entanglements.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

yaar, there might have been problems in the way nawaz or bb ruled…but you cant ignore the fact that these two cant be left out of the political equation…even now both of those command more support from the masses…and a popular political personality can pull out pakistan from the mess we are in…musharraf can try all he can, but the political system he has put in place needs him…and he needs those people who are in power now…none of the current leaders have a broad popular support…

anyways, i live in pakistan…and for me and an average pakistani lives have become worse…we dont see any fruits of the improved economy…maybe the selected 1% of pakistan’s population have benefitted…

according for fraudia, law and order has improved…look at the northern areas of pakistan…balochistan…and an operation going on in wana…

when musharraf can have peace with india, why not with pakistani politicians?

musharraf said, he wanted to stay in uniform to steer the peace process forward with india…the obvious result, an indian elected prime minister is calling kashmir their ‘atoot ang’…musharraf with his uniform is showing ‘flexibility’…

on the baghliar issue they havent agreed to pakistani proposals…cuz the indians want to buy time in the pretext of the peace dialouge while continuing with their plans to turn pakistan into one big desert…

when musharraf threw nawaz sharif out i also supported him, but now there isnt much difference between him and his predecessor mililtary leaders…

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

yaar, there might have been problems in the way nawaz or bb ruled...but you cant ignore the fact that these two cant be left out of the political equation...even now both of those command more support from the masses...

Pakistan can do just fine without either of those 2. they can be left out of the political equation.

and a popular political personality can pull out pakistan from the mess we are in...

Not just popular, but popular, sincere and effective. BB was popular when she swept into power, and so was nawaz, but what mess did they solve, rather they just created more of a mess.

musharraf can try all he can, but the political system he has put in place needs him...and he needs those people who are in power now...none of the current leaders have a broad popular support...

Its the same people who would otherwise be in political roles in a BB on NS govt.

anyways, i live in pakistan...and for me and an average pakistani lives have become worse...we dont see any fruits of the improved economy...maybe the selected 1% of pakistan's population have benefitted...

fruits dont just fall in everyone's lap, people have greater opprtunities but that does not mean that they dont have to try to get those opportunities. and not everyone that works for the opprtunities gets them All I know is that i have cousins in Pakistan who decided against moving abroad even though they have canadian immigration, because they are doing so well in their careers. And no, they are def not in the elite crowd, and did not go to the top institutions there.

according for fraudia, law and order has improved...look at the northern areas of pakistan...balochistan...and an operation going on in wana...

political unrest in wana is very different than general law and order situation.

count the number of university and school closings per year, and compare that to how it was in early or mid 90's. same goes for robbery and murder etc.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Mushy is in deep shytti… he makes his doggie taste the food before he eats it for the fear of someone in the Army poisoning him. He lets his Army Issue nokers to make sure that his wife is ‘safe’ before sleeping with her. Before going to bed, he checks under his bed, and before falling asleep he makes sure that his ass is equipped with a GPS monitored in the White House. Had he known the kind of shyt he will get himself into, he would have never have thrown an perfectly legitimate government.

Jesa Karo gay, wesa Bharo gay

:jhanda:

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

yeah he is in deep ****
fundos and political rivalscivil and military are after him
but
good to see that he is still doing what is right for pakistan
none of the other jokers ranging from the MMA ppl to BB or NS would have been able to handle the situation.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Yaar, when will you learn the theory of Dictatorship? They first create problems and them make themselves incharge of fixing them. Is that why Pakistan spend so much on our Armed Forces that they can turn around a fk us up? What good has any dictator done? What do you mean by ‘right’ for country? Name a single right thing he has done.

:jhanda:

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

theory of dictatorship does not limit itself to dictators who are from the military or got to their post thru martial law. having elections does not man a democracy is in place.

what is one good thing that he has done, he has stood up against the extremists for one. which is better than bhutto succumbing to mullahs and delcaring you lot non muslim.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Wah ji wah… in 50 years since independence, if someone stands up to thugs, that’s a good thing and something to be proud of?? Fraudz.. you obviously have very low expectations from our leaders.

Standing up to lawlessness is not the job of a Dictator. It is the job of other institutions in the country, which the Dictator, instead of supporting them, takes over them. While we have nukes in our arsenal, our Police people don’t even make enough to put a meal on the table for their families. A lowlevel below average idiots officer in the Army takes aways 10 times the resources available to his civilian (and much more intelligent) counterpart.

If we need safety from Mullahs, we would be better recruiting some private thugs (Badmassh) than have a Dictator do that for us.

:jhanda:

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

in 50 years in the country i would have been happy if someone had stopped their own thugs rather than standing up to thugs, and he is standing up, which is good

standingup to lawlessness is the job of other institutions, and while the dictator takes over them, but makes them work. our elected tyrants did jack..they also had their own pals run thoe intitutions, so basically they did take them over, except they did not do jack.

as far as hiring private thugs to carry out work, BB and Alaf both were very good at it.

while we have nukes in our arsenal, police people were not making enough for years..

so something is not going to go 180 degrees in a handful of years, things in general have improved under him, while under the regimes of the previous 3 they kept going bad, with the exception of a drop in sectarian fighting under nawaz's rule compared to BBs rule.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Fraudz… even when we do have the elected governments, you should know who the force running the country behind is. He’s been here for almost 5 years… Zia was there for a decade; Ayub, Yehya for another decade… what do we have to show for? YOu can ask yourself the same question when Mushi is gone…what did he leave behind? Probably a ****load of debt covered with flies.

:jhanda:

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Okay then if some other force is running the country anyways then does it matter that the top govt official is a military guy or a civilian guy without any power? since the power rests with military anyways :)

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

Fraudz… your receiver is missing the signals. When I say power rests with the Military, I imply economic power – 30% of our GDP is shoved up Military’s ass whereas it comprises of less than 1/5 % of the nation. go figure. They (as an institution) are thieves looters and rapists of the nation since the day Pakistan was created. If there were no Armed forces in Pakistan, Pakistan will be the most prosperous and most advanced nation of Asia.

:jhanda:

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

yaar, there might have been problems in the way nawaz or bb ruled...but you cant ignore the fact that these two cant be left out of the political equation...even now both of those command more support from the masses...and a popular political personality can pull out pakistan from the mess we are in...musharraf can try all he can, but the political system he has put in place needs him...and he needs those people who are in power now...none of the current leaders have a broad popular support...

Zaavia Bhai, I am not saying that they cant be left out of the political education, but rather they SHOULD be. You cannot force feed democracy to a nation without a democratic tradition -- here lies the dilemma: Do we continue dictatorship with the notion that BB/NS democratically elected by Pakistan will ruin the country, or do we push democracy and see that ruin become reality?

As for broad popular support, Hitler in postwar Germany also that plus he was democratically elected..the masses can be charmed and fooled.
**
anyways, i live in pakistan...and for me and an average pakistani lives have become worse...we dont see any fruits of the improved economy...maybe the selected 1% of pakistan's population have benefitted...
**

I truly feel bad that things have not improved for you. I agree with you in regards to selected people benefitting. However don't overlook the fact that if BB comes into power, it is "her" Sindhis running the show in Karachi or NS's Kashmiris in Lahore. So in all cases including the present, we have constituencies that benefit. I would never support a Rajput from Attock despite having the possibility of being part of his interest group, although I know more than few Attockwals would support that leader.

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

[quote]
Its the same people who would otherwise be in political roles in a BB on NS govt.
[/quote]

yaar thats what i'm saying...there's no big change...the day musharraf's gone the people in this government would be lining infront of bilawal house or nawaz sharif's house...musharraf had a chance to put forward some stable functioning system but he didnt do that...you cant call this a stable system which needs a man in uniform to run it...there's a void which has been created by musharraf himself otherwise he will become irrelevant...

[quote]
fruits dont just fall in everyone's lap, people have greater opprtunities but that does not mean that they dont have to try to get those opportunities. and not everyone that works for the opprtunities gets them All I know is that i have cousins in Pakistan who decided against moving abroad even though they have canadian immigration, because they are doing so well in their careers. And no, they are def not in the elite crowd, and did not go to the top institutions there.
[/quote]

yaar, 99% people arent getting any rewards...therefore good economy or not...it doesnt make any difference...if you are earning about 20000 Rs per month which according to pakistan's environment is a very good salary, its very difficult to support a family...you can well imagine how most of the population lives, ie. below 10000 per month...

[QUOTE]
count the number of university and school closings per year, and compare that to how it was in early or mid 90's. same goes for robbery and murder etc.
[/QUOTE]

as far as punjab is concerned, things had started to move towards the better during shahbaz sharif's rule...and mind you there was no 'uniform' to protect him...

Re: Pakistan Without Musharaf

mushy certainly likes to think he is indespensible, but he's not. no guarantee though that situation in pakistan will improve if he were to leave, if we r stupid enough to believe we need him or gullible enough to think he has been constructive, then we are dumb enough to do just about every thing.