Pakistan Turns to IMF

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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1) FDI was booming all throughout 2001-2007 (during WoT)

Pakistan had no choice in 2001 but to join in on the war. What people don't understand is that once NATO forces are inside Afghanistan, they are trapped between hostile land-locked nations, and Pakistan is where all their food+ammunition supplies come from. How hard is it to halt their supplies? I think Musharraf would've turned against the US very soon if he had stayed in power, using the trapped NATO forces as a string to manipulate foreign regional policies. The US realized what was happening and started to blamed him for playing a 'double-game'. But look at how quickly Musharraf got deposed and removed from power. Now do you think that AAZ or NS will ever halt NATO supplies? If they don't, it is clear proof as to where their loyalties lie.

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Capital flight was caused by “dheely dhaleying” of the elected government. Had they been strong in facing off Talibans, capital would have stayed.

Remember many countries have internal strife. However the investors want to see that the “government is in control” of things.

Unfortunately our socialist media and our confused civilian leadership thought that they can play “I am not Musharraf so don’t crap on me” game with Talibans and be OK. Well talibans do not care if you are Musharraf or not, they are after Pakistan’s jugular.

The same socialist ideals have permeated discussion boards such as these. We have been in the middle of terror since 90s when Sufi Mohammad started militant uprising to enforce Wahabi Shariah.

Sufi Mohammad was just a minor first wave of Qaida’s attack on Pakistan. The big push form Wahabis was to come later. And when that push came, we started dancing to socialist tunes, but giving WOT into American hands.

Taliban in the meanwhile established themselves throughout Pakistan even in the middle of Islamabad. And we thought we can treat Taliban as if they are pussy cats. We can give them milk, and they will purr on our feet.

Didn’t we learn a single lesson from Afghanistan, that Taliban are a reckless warlording force that will have no qualms about destroying Afghanistan’s present, the past, and the future.

We in Pakistan thought that these Talibans are bringing Sharia. Why it is that anyone claiming Sharia can get instant acceptance. Why do we lose our faculties when someone shouts Islam zinda bad in front of us. Why do we allow chor, daakoos, and terrorists to become our Imams?

Speaking like a true socialist. O bro! US sanctions on Pakistan were like a slap on the wrist. We continued getting all the money from international sources. Our petroleum and other vital supplies were never stopped. Our bank assets were never frozen to the point that our state bank would tank.

Ask Iranians or North Koreans how “real” sanctions can cripple a country.

You all sit in comfy apartments in the UK and US and tell us to live under sanctions. Wah bhai Wah. Khud to buch bucha ker nikalk gay, ab khud ayashi kertay hain, or humain sanctions main rehnay ka subak detay hain. With friends like you, who needs enemies.

Afghanistan will be hell if NATO leaves today. Can you not learn a single lesson from Somalia?

Oh well, why do you guys care. You all live in the West, enjoy good life, and live and breed in safe environs. And yet you are all hell bent on turning Pakistan into Somalia and Afghanistan. What a shame.

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And they were about to find Elvis Pressley.

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I could not understand why Musharraf would have turned against USA for nothing? :) Why Musharraf or any sane government would think of involving Pakistan with Afghanistan and whatever happening in Afghanistan (where actually to me, nothing has happened or happening anyhow)?

To me, what Pakistan should do is establish writ of government throughout Pakistan. That can only happen if Pakistan gets rid of foreign invaders and local criminals who are fighting Pakistani forces, challenging government writ over Pakistani land and violating Pakistan border with Afghanistan.

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Incompetent and corrupt thug politicians of PPP and PMLN in present government have already brought lot of problems Pakistan is facing today. They could not sort things out as their purpose in government is to loot and plunder. They are experts of deciet, corruption, nepotism and mismanagement, with speciality in looting and plundering national wealth.

Now, they should resign and give the government back to those who were doing wonderful job for Pakistan during last 8 years, so that Pakistani Khazana could get full again. I am sure that Nation would appreciate them if they would do this, and would give them another chance to loot, plunder and destroy the country once country would again stand up after their departure.

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Re: Pakistan Turns to IMF

What about the MQM. The coalition consists of PPP, MQM and ANP. How convieniently you ignore them and put in PML[n], even though the PMLN sits in the opposition.

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**Last govt misused remittances, says Zardari -DAWN - Top Stories; October 24, 2008

Last govt misused remittances, says Zardari**

By Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD, Oct 23: President Asif Ali Zardari criticised on Thursday economic policies of the previous government and said that foreign remittances worth billions of rupees had been misused over the past several years.
**
“Their proper utilisation could have saved the country from the prevailing economic crisis,” the president said while talking to a delegation of businessmen which called on him at the President House.
**
He said: “We could have averted the present difficult economic situation if tens of billions of dollars received in the form of assistance and foreign remittances after 9/11 had been wisely spent on infrastructure development, instead of importing consumer goods.”

President Zardari urged businessmen to step forward and play their role in overcoming economic and financial difficulties.

Stressing the need for innovative and bold approaches, he cited an example of Dubai which, despite its tiny size and small population, had attracted hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign investment. He said that Dubai even attracted a large number of tourists by developing a tourism industry.

Mr Zardari said he would hold similar consultative meetings with representatives of industry and commerce in future. “Meetings of relevant ministries with representatives of different sectors of business and industry should be held on a regular basis to find out solutions to the problems.”

The president asked Adviser to the Prime Minster on Finance Minister Shaukat Tareen to meet business representatives regularly and seek their suggestions to cope with the prevailing economic crunch.

Members of the delegation assured the president of their support and lauded business-friendly policies of the present government to attract more investment in different sectors of industry and commerce.

The meeting was attended by Board of Investment Chairman Saleem U. Mandviwala, Secretary Commerce Syed Asif Shah, Revenue Division Chairman Shahab Khawaja, Additional Finance Secretary Mohammad Ayub Tareen, S.M. Munir, Haji Masood, Khalid Tawab, Zahid Hussain, A. Haseeb Khan, Masood Naqi, Yahyha Polaki, Majid Aziz, Arshad Farooque, Fazal Jalil, Capt (retd) Moiz and Parwaiz Sohail.

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Beating dead horse is easy, instead of asking for $100 billion (and thus making a mockery out of "asking for money") he should've instead comeup with 'infra-structure' development projects around the country and asked for the money for those projects instead of money only to pay the bills.

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Saleem bro! this post is not supported by documentary evidence as your typical posts.

I beg to differ on your statement as "they should resign and give the government back to those who were doing wonderful job for Pakistan during last 8 years".

Army should remain in the background as it is doing right now. Civilian cover is an excellent strategy. Even though Zardari was never my favorite, but at least he is making the most "sane" statements for the last many months now.

Loot and plunder is bad, however it is a very very small portion of our national wealth. Our real wealth is hidden in two important aspects that pretty much drive our economy.

  1. Our fantastic agri products
  2. Outsourcing of military contracts.

The day we start concentrating on these two to get the maximum benefit, believe me, we can be as prosperous as Turkey if not S. Korea.

Our agri products right now are suffering from an ancient centuries old marketing system. We need to make it modern. Here is how:

Modern farming
a. Let the big farmers buy up land from subsistence farmers.
b. Allow modern supply chain from farm to hearth.
c. Get rid of small time retailers and middlemen wholesalers.
d. Create tax incentives for mega farms that are run as corporations instead of personal fiefdoms.
e. Create tax incentives for agri-product processors that employ our labor force and reduce the food wasted in our ancient style godowns.

** military should get outsourcing contracts **
Military outsourcing is the most lucrative class of contracts. An Indian-IT engineer may get $10-$50 an hour. A Chinese laborer in Guangjoh factories may earn $2 an hour. But a trained soldiers can get $200 to $500 an hour depending on the hazard level.

No wonder India is dying to get military outsourcing from Americans. Their recent deployment of Navy around Somalia is just the first step. Soon they will be charging $millions for their military services around the world. However Pakistan has an edge in cultural and geographic terms. So Pakistanis must take up the opportunities in the gulf, ME, and CIS when they come.

We need the following steps though.

a. Military should be established on business grounds
b. They should earn money form overseas contracts

By overhauling our agri-models and military models we can easily make $50 to $100 billion a year. This is vastly better than our paltry $20 billion a year income at this stage.

Think about this. We will no longer be dependent on IMF or WB or Saudi or Chinese help. We can pay off our debts in 10 years, and turn our country around very quickly.

However this can only be done if the civilians (and not necessarily 100% democratic or honest) governments are not providing the pathway.

This will only be possible if the civilian governments must get our 100% unconditional support for the coming decades. Once our finances are in good enough shape, we will be able to operate in a very balanced environment.

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I disagree with "a". Let small farmers have their own lands and cultivate whatever they want. In US there are tons and tons of small farmers who are producing agri products and using high-tech products to increase yield and control quality. Pakistan should provide these high-tech products to all farmers so they can extract maximum advantage out of their lands.

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Re: Pakistan Turns to IMF

The IMF loan which is the only option has painful conditions.

Bitter fruits of IMF bailout

30% cut in defence, monitors. Pak essentially loses sovereignty and becomes an IMF trustee ship. Maybe we need some colonialism.

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All bailouts are bitter/conditioned. I think same is true for US govt bailing out many banks.

ehsan uncle we miss you
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Firstly, I must ask where in my post did I show socialist leanings? Wanting Pakistan to be independent of US control is not socialism. It is the highest form of nationalism. I am not anti US, on balance rather pro US, but any relationship should involve both parties keeping their dignity.

As for the assumption that we have anything but the heartfelt interests of Pakistan in our hearts and minds, its rather offensive to me, and I'm sure many. We NRP or POPO (thats people of pakistani origin) both play and role in the development of Pakistan, and indeed act as ambassadors of our motherland all day, 24/7.

You said:

"Why it is that anyone claiming Sharia can get instant acceptance. Why do we lose our faculties when someone shouts Islam zinda bad in front of us. "

Not all of us fall for it. The notion of living under Sharia makes me queasy at best. People within Pakistan, the uneducated masses and some ideologues, fall for the pan-Islamist line. I have no time for faith in politics. As Pakistanis become more educated, we will become increasingly secular, until finally religion is confined to the home and the annals of social studies.

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I totally agree with you…lets not monopolizie the whole thing to make a cartel or a mafia… :k: :slight_smile:

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Yaar ... that was my personal advice to thugs in power, for the sake of the country. :)

[quote]
Army should remain in the background as it is doing right now. Civilian cover is an excellent strategy. Even though Zardari was never my favorite, but at least he is making the most "sane" statements for the last many months now.
[/quote]

You are right that army should stay in the background. But this should not happen at the expense of the country.

I also agree with you that Zardari is making mostly 'sane; statements and probably trying to do whatever he can for the country. But problem mismanagement, nepotism, his reputation and reputation of some politicians (mostly from PMLN) whose presence in government is harming the country badly. Economy of a country depends on trust.

For instance, dollar is in demand because people trust American economy and thus use dollar as trading currency, now however over valued and empty America might be from inside, America is benefitting because of that trust, attracting trillions of dollars worth foreign wealth to support their economy, cover their mismanagement, and over-spending.

[quote]
Loot and plunder is bad, however it is a very very small portion of our national wealth.
[/quote]

Loot and plunder harms the country not just because of loss to the country due to loot and plunder, but loss to the image of the country and mistrust it creates on the country. Because of loot and plunder, people stop investing in the country and those who already invested run out of country.

For instance, a person do not mind if they make loss due to genuine business failures, and they keep working hard, but if same loss happens due to loot and plunder, people feel disgusted and stop working hard.

Same happens in job market. If one does not get job because one did not qualify on merit, it does not hurt that much and people keep trying, but if a person did not get job because of nepotism, people starts feeling bad and stop trying or working hard.

[quote]
Our real wealth is hidden in two important aspects that pretty much drive our economy.

  1. Our fantastic agri products
  2. Outsourcing of military contracts.

The day we start concentrating on these two to get the maximum benefit, believe me, we can be as prosperous as Turkey if not S. Korea.
[/quote]

First of all, there is wrong impression that Pakistan did not had agriculture growth during last 8 years. Actually, Agriculture also made huge progress and showed good growth during last 8 years.

Problem is that a country could not come out of poverty on back of agriculture, specially a country that has 170 million to feed and has limited agricultural lands as well as limited water resources. A well managed few acres of industrial land could employ millions of people and could produce wealth that can buy enough crops to feed a nation.

you should know that Turkey has good agricultural resources, probably better than Pakistan, still Turkey is richest Muslim country because of their industry, not agriculture. Sudan with fraction of population has potential to produce several times more agricultural goods than Pakistan, still Sudan is basket case, because it has no industry, and that is affecting their agricultural output too.

Just imagine that total production of Pakistan wheat last year was over 23 million tons and rice was around 7 million tons. Total value of both these items in international market is around $10 billion to $15 billion dollars (depending on price, sometime high and sometime low). In comparison, an industry could produce similar wealth in few acres of land. So, industrial progress is very important if Pakistan has to grow and become even middle income country.

[quote]
The day we start concentrating on these two to get the maximum benefit, believe me, we can be as prosperous as Turkey if not S. Korea.
[/quote]

I differ to agree with you here, as I do not think so that relying on agriculture, Pakistan could get anywhere. Well, agricultural output is raw material, so Pakistan can use agricultural raw materials to produce industrial output, that might take Pakistan out of poverty. But then, Pakistan can import agricultural raw materials to produce same industrial output that can take Pakistan out of poverty.

Using raw material to produce industrial output is not agriculture but industry. A country does not even need to have agricultural output to produce industrial output related to that agricultural output. For instance, Bangladesh does not produce cotton. Nevertheless, they import cotton and then export cotton related industrial output similar to Pakistan (or more), even though Pakistan is a leading cotton producing country.

....

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^^ Saleem bro! I agree that I should have added #3 in the list as "pro-West" China, S.Korea style industry.

Thanks for correction.

37

Why did the US blame Musharraf for 'playing a double-game', and constantly critisized him for 'not doing enough' on the WoT during the end of his career?

So, you think it would've been okay if Pakistan had never joined in on the WoT?

How do you get rid of foreign invaders & local criminals (who are supported by foreigners)? To kill a tree, will you cut the branches or the roots?

This is not modern farming, nor will this make us as competent as those countries which practice modern farming. Modern farming consists of using modern technologies (i.e. mechanized labour). This is a term which you should research: drip-irrigation (hydroponics) << Using this technology, countries, with modern agriculture industries, are able to produce 10x more than Pakistan, and a result, export more as well, even though they have less agricultural/fertile land than Pakistan.
It is not hard to implement, nor is it hard to develop.

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I believe that insurgency was going on and USA was upset. I read that one American general said that they can kill many insurgents crossing border, but Pakistan has endless supply. So, USA wanted Pakistan to stop any crossing from Pakistan to Afghanistan and if Pakistan could not than they wanted to do that themselves, bombing part of Pakistan.

Musharraf was a strong leader and since he was in command of military as well as government, his not agreeing meant Pakistan government as well as Army not agreeing. So, USA did not took risk to cross border while he was President, as with him not agreeing meant he could command military to repulse any American incursions and army would have obliged Musharraf at all cost. So, America went against Musharraf and did all to get him out of power, bringing corrupt politicians, as corrupt politicians are easy to control, most are in their pocket anyhow.

Now, situation is different. Pakistan does not have unity of command. American can intrude Pakistani territory without caring. Corrupt politicians are in their pocket and thus Army is isolated. On the other hand, even if politicians would disagree, there is good chance that they could not order army to stop incursions, because army generals may decline with excuse that they have no resources to stand in front of USA might. These politicians do not have any moral standing to tell army to risk their life when Pakistan is not in danger. American incursions do not endanger Pakistan, as USA do not want to invade Pakistan, hence army could decline confronting them. [Army could not have declined if Musharraf has told them to confront incursions, whatever the cost and reasons].

[quote]
So, you think it would've been okay if Pakistan had never joined in on the WoT?
[/quote]

Pakistan did not join WoT. If Pakistan had joined, they would have been fighting with America in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pakistan is only fighting those forces who have invaded Pakistan and fighting Pakistani forces in Pakistan.

[quote]
How do you get rid of foreign invaders & local criminals (who are supported by foreigners)? To kill a tree, will you cut the branches or the roots?
[/quote]

Well, to kill a tree, one has to destroy the root. Root cause for terrorists fighting Pakistani forces is that they want to control Pakistan by force. Their tactics is their propaganda under the guise of Islam. Unfortunately, many in Pakistan are misguided and think that these terrorists are soldiers of God ... not realising that these are soldiers of Shaitan. As long as people would keep thinking that these people are not soldiers of Shaitan, it would be very difficult for Pakistan to win the war. We can only hope for the best and wait.

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DAWN.COM | Pakistan | IMF not pressing for defence cuts

WASHINGTON: The International Monetary Fund never asked Pakistan to cut military spending by a third, although it has urged the country to take a number of painful economic measures, a senior Pakistani diplomat told Dawn on Saturday.

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Re: Pakistan Turns to IMF

Cash-Strapped Pakistan Turns To World For Bailout : NPR

tsk tsk tsk