Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

Because the Quaid wanted it.. I know this topics been done to death, but here an article from DAWN that just highlights some of the evidence… So couldnt help myself, enjoy:)
Here is the best part, and I would like the religous people to dispute this..
“They (the clergy) misled the people and poisoned their minds against secularism by alleging that a secularist is an atheist and anti-religion. The fact is that only secularism and a secular society guarantee freedom to all citizens to adopt, follow and practice any religion or ideology without any fear or discrimination.”

“It is ostensibly religious states, by virtue of their basic character and existence, that promote bigotry, sectarianism and prejudice not only among different religions but among Muslims themselves. This in turn inevitably results in brutalization and lawlessness in society, which is the main impediment to economic development and progress.”

Another interesting point!
“A vast majority of Muslim countries do not have man-made hudood and blasphamy laws or define Muslims in their constitutions. But we don’t hear of sectarian riots or killing of Muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam or attacks on mosques and imambargahs. Why should Pakistan be different and adopt militant practices and discriminatory laws in the name of religion? Are we in any manner better Muslims? Or are Muslims in other countries in any way inferior to Pakistanis?”

Was Pakistan meant to be a secular state?

By Iqbal Haider

ONE of the positive aspects of Mr Lal Krisna Advani’s visit to Pakistan was his appreciation of Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s secular vision which has generated a lively debate in both Pakistan and India.

A perusal of the Quaid’s speeches and statements leaves no doubt that he wanted Pakistan to be a secular state. The secular character, system and spirit as envisaged by Mr Jinnah is evident from his speeches and statements on three vital constitutional and political issues: (i) his views against mixing religion with Politics; (ii) condemnation of theocracy; and (iii) equal rights and status for the minorities. Some quotations (in brief) from credible books on all the three issues follow:-

Religion and politics:

“Jinnah left the Home Rule League and the Congress after Gandhi took them over because he strongly disapproved of the introduction of religion into politics by Gandhi, and because he disapproved equally strongly of unconstitutional means to secure swaraj.” — H.M. Seervai, Legend and Reality, p.169.

“Jinnah had told him that he (Gandhi) had ruined politics in India by dragging up a lot of unwholesome elements in Indian life and giving them political prominence, that it was a crime to mix up politics and religion the way he (Gandhi) had done.” — Transfer of Power Documents, Vol.VI, p. 617.

“Jinnah, however, warned Gandhiji not to encourage fanaticism of Muslim religious leaders and their followers. Indeed he was not the only person who foresaw danger in the Khilafat Movement.” — K.M. Munshi, Pilgrimage to Freedom, p. 22.

“Jinnah made it clear, however, that he had no intention of playing the role of an Islamic Khalifah. As Pakistan’s governor-general, he intended to see to it that all its citizens, irrespective of religious or cultural orientation, were, politically and before the law, similar and equal.” — Pakistan in the Twentieth Century — A Political History by Lawrence Ziring, pp. 66 & 67.

“Jinnah’s insistence on balance and fairness to all, irrespective of religious persuasion or cultural identity, projected a secular approach that was now obscured in the Muslim League’s struggle to achieve parity with the Congress.” — Pakistan in the Twentieth Century — A Political History by Lawrence Ziring, p. 39.

“Jinnah, the ‘ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity’, had worked hard to get the Congress and the League to co-operate and deplored the opportunistic alliance between the Mahatma and the Khilafat Muslims.” — The Sole Spokesman: Jinnah, The Muslim League and The Demand for Pakistan by Ayesha Jalal, pp. 8 & 9.

It should be noted that the Quaid-i-Azam never named, called, referred to or branded Pakistan as an “Islamic Republic”. It must be remembered that while referring to Pakistan he only used the words, “State of Pakistan” or “Sovereign State of Pakistan” or “Dominion of Pakistan” or “Federal Republic of Pakistan”. This fact can be easily verified from the many statements, messages, interviews and speeches of the Quaid, as published in Jinnah’s Papers (10 volumes) and by the Oxford University Press, Karachi, Rizwan Ahmed, Pakistan Movement Centre, Karachi (single volume) and (d) by Khurshid Ahmed Yousufi, Bazm-i-Iqbal, Lahore (four volumes).

Pakistan not to be a theocratic state:

“Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state? You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means.” — Jinnah’s press conference in New Delhi on July 14, 1947, Jinnah Speeches & Statements, published by OUP, p.15.

“But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it…”. Jinnah’s address to the people of Australia on February 19, 1948 — Jinnah Speeches & Statements p.118.

“In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.” Jinnah’s address to the people of the United States in February, 1948, Jinnah Speeches & Statements, p.125.

Equal status, rights And protection for the minorities:

“Minorities to whichever community they may belong, will be safeguarded. Their religion or faith or belief will be secure. There will be no interference of any kind with their freedom of worship. They will have their protection with regard to their religion, faith, their life, their culture. They will be, in all respects, the citizens of Pakistan without any distinction of caste or creed”. — Jinnah’s press conference in New Delhi on July 14, 1947, Jinnah Speeches & Statements p. 13.

“You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state”. — Jinnah’s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947, Jinnah Speeches & Statements, p. 28.

“Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.” — Jinnah’s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly, August 11, 1947, Jinnah Speeches & Statements, p. 29.

“We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.” — Jinnah’s address to the people of the United States in February, 1948, Jinnah Speeches & Statements, p.125.

The aforesaid are just a few of Mr Jinnah’s observations. There is no dearth of such statements by the Quaid on numerous occasions that highlight his secular views, vision and objectives.

Almost all authors of books on the Quaid, including Stanley Wolpert, Lawrence Ziring, Ayesha Jalal, H.M. Seervai and K.M. Munshi, substantiate and support the view in unambiguous terms that the Quaid was himself a secular person and wanted Pakistan to be a secular state.

Much to our misfortune, the same orthodox religious parties that had openly criticized and ridiculed the Quaid as ‘kafir-e-azam’ and Pakistan as “Napak-istan” and opposed the

very creation of the country became the custodians of its ideology and started imposing obscurantist, illogical concepts and ideas in the name of religion. They launched a campaign with mala fide motives against secularism or secular thinking.

They misled the people and poisoned their minds against secularism by alleging that a secularist is an atheist and anti-religion. The fact is that only secularism and a secular society guarantee freedom to all citizens to adopt, follow and practice any religion or ideology without any fear or discrimination.

It is ostensibly religious states, by virtue of their basic character and existence, that promote bigotry, sectarianism and prejudice not only among different religions but among Muslims themselves. This in turn inevitably results in brutalization and lawlessness in society, which is the main impediment to economic development and progress.

The prefix of “Islamic Republic” with the name of Pakistan was added for the first time in 1956 as a result of the unholy nexus between the unelected civil and military bureaucracy.

It is ironic and unfortunate that Pakistan thus became only the second country after Israel to have a religious identity attached to its name in its constitution.

It should be relevant to point out that our brother Muslim country Bangladesh, which was part of Pakistan until 1971 and has as many, if not more, committed Muslims, chose to drop the religious identity prefix from its name in the constitution adopted by it at independence.

Similarly, with the exception of Pakistan and a couple of other countries, the 57 countries with a majority of Muslims — from east Asia to the Middle East and Africa — have not adopted Islam as their state religion or attached the prefix of “Islamic” with their names. Its only in Pakistan that we have at least 133 known religious parties and not less than 104 known ‘jihadi’ groups.

A vast majority of Muslim countries do not have man-made hudood and blasphamy laws or define Muslims in their constitutions. But we don’t hear of sectarian riots or killing of Muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam or attacks on mosques and imambargahs. Why should Pakistan be different and adopt militant practices and discriminatory laws in the name of religion? Are we in any manner better Muslims? Or are Muslims in other countries in any way inferior to Pakistanis?

The writer is a former federal minister for law and now secretary-general of the HRCP. Email: [email protected]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/05/op.htm#5

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

Many of the quotes you gave are also used by Islamist groups as evidence that Jinnah wanted an Islamic Pakistan.

"“Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state? You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means.”

“But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it....”.

“In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.”

You overlook look the fact that at the exact same time period that Jinnah was saying these quotes, Maulana Abul Ala Maududi of the Jamaat-i-Islaam was giving speeches saying how as Islamic state is NOT one ruled by clerics.

Maulana Maududi explicity stated an Islamic state would not be a theocracy; it would not be ruled by the whims of clerics and would instead be ruled by men adhering to the principles that God laid down. Indeed, if you look at previous Islamic states (the Abbasid, Mamluk and Uthmani states) the political powers of clerics were generally quite limited.

Jinnah's guarantees of the rights of minorities were also almost exactly the same as the rights of minorities in an ideal Islamic state as preached by Maulana Maududi.


And finally, whilst I have no doubt that Jinnah wanted an Islamic state to be created but was hampered by the fact that in 1947 there was no concensus over what the nature of an Islamic state was, there is one final argument against secularism.

As Muslims, are we not supposed to put the commands of Rasoolullah (pbuh) about how to live our lives and conduct our affairs over and above the wishes of later men?

Should Turkey remain strictly and oppresively secular simply because that's how Ataturk wished it to be? Should Turkish women be persecuted for wearing the hijab forever because that is how Ataturk wished it to be? Should Turkey have remained a one-party dictatorship forever simply because that is how Ataturk ruled it?

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

The article overlooks all those statement sin which Jinnah spoke of Islam, and the creation of an ISLAMIC wealfare state.

Let's face it, Jinnah either didn't pay much attention to secularism, or he played both sides of the fence. In any case, his talk of Islam was hardly secular.

That the Mullahs opposed the creation of Pakistan is somewhat of a straw man. Once Pakistan was a done-deal, they did in fact put their weight behind the movement. No amount of debating would change the reality of Pakistan...I would say the Mullahs did the right thing.

Now, was the creation of Pakistan a good thing? If India was united, it would be 40% Muslim, and the Muslims would most likely control the nation. But that's a different debate, I suppose...

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

Pakistan should be secular for india if pakistan is secular then there will not be any problem in india and india will be more secular which india is not at present

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

Pakistan should be an Islamic state ruled according to Islamic principles as laid down in the Shariah and the political writings of great leaders like Maodoodey.

This is Pakistan's fate whether it likes it or not. Pakistan cannot have its cake and eat it also. It cannot just set up a pure Islamic state in Afghanistan for its "strategic depth" and itself behave like a nation of secular Hindus.

Pakistan is sliding towards becoming an Islamic state. Inshallah in the future an Islamic government will reign in Pakistan.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

On the contrary…Pakistan is rapidly sliding towards becoming a hindu state…

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

posted twice

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

Guys, read between the lines here, Jinnah said he didnt want a theocracy. Whether maulana saab believes a govt run on the principles of Islam is a theocracy or not is irrelevent. Fact is that any country ruled by religous dictates, is a theocracy. And while a cleric may not rule, they are the ones interpreting the Islamic laws on which the country is based, and thus indirectly, they are ruling. Jinnah did not want a theocracy he obviously wanted a secular nation that split the mosque from the state and one in which all citizens are equal regardless of reliogion. And while Islam may on paper guarantee equal rights and freedom to minorites, the reality is very different. Everything sounds great on paper, even communism, but hard to implement because they dont take into account the human factor. Religous people could never allow equal rights for minorites because the see themselves as superior.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

You know people say Kashmiri people are generally very secualr minded.. Well atleast that what the Indian say. But nice to meet you…

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

Nice to hear you admit it finally baby:)

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

did i ever denied it sweetheart:)

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

[QUOTE]
And while a cleric may not rule, they are the ones interpreting the Islamic laws on which the country is based, and thus indirectly, they are ruling.

[/QUOTE]

There is no clerical class in Islam. If one wants to make legal descisions even in western countries, they need to become Lawyers and then Judges. This does not imply they rule. Further, in either case one only needs education to be provided the opportunity to participate in the system. There is no magic or devine selection.

The leader of a nation that respects Islamic principles need not be a mullah.

The particular setup in Iran, for example, is rather unique in Islamic history. The Ulema tended to be bureaucrats, not leaders. Influence, though, does not imply rule.

[QUOTE]

Jinnah did not want a theocracy he obviously wanted a secular nation that split the mosque from the state

[/QUOTE]

Jinnah's remarks on the issue are confused at best. He definitely pandard to an Islamic sentiment, and went so far as to describe Pakistan as an Islamic welfare state. Such is not the actions of a secularist, but a pragmatist who simply wanted to win mindshare for his vision of a nation for Muslims.

What Jinnah did NOT want is discrimination along religious lines. That, however, does not imply secularism. It is debatable if that is the only way to acheive tolerance, considering secularism neccessarily implies intolerance of religion in the public sphere.

As for seperation of mosque and state, a nonsensical phrase in the Islamic context as the mosque never was the center of legal activity or infleunce in the Muslim world. It was always the state, to which the Ulema were attached.

The Church, on the other hand, was a different matter. At one point, the Catholic Church had kings and emporers under the pope! In Islam, the Khalifah is not like a pope (the Khalifa is accountable under the law, and is not infallible).

[QUOTE]

And while Islam may on paper guarantee equal rights and freedom to minorites, the reality is very different. Everything sounds great on paper, even communism,

[/QUOTE]

Even Pakistan itself? Doesn't mean the nation should disintegrate!

[QUOTE]

Religous people could never allow equal rights for minorites because the see themselves as superior.
[/QUOTE]

As do secularites, who have an innate discomfort with religion and seek to eliminate it from the public sphere.

Secularism is not pragmatic, no matter Mr. Jinnah's thoughts.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

First I think your over interpreting the whole cleric thing. What Jinnah obviously meant was that he did not want religion being mixed up with govt.

Your right that a leader need not a be a Mullah to respect religion. But I will say that a leader that belongs to state in which a certain religion is promoted and accepted as the state religion, is not in line what Jinnah had planned for his nation, he made this abundantly clear when he said that all citizens are equal. Equality is a notion that a religious state is devoid of, since the state represents only those who belong to the religon the state religion sanctions as the state relgion.
All politicians are pragamatists, this is a polite way of saying they are sell outs. Jinnah obviously pandered to the religious sentiment of the masses, betraying his secular persona, but ultimately, he made it clear that he wanted his country to be a secular country where religion was not a matter of state but of the individual.
Jinnah did not want discrimination on relgious lines, and this does not imply a secualr state, but taking into account the man himself it seems clear that secularism was what he wanted. Why else for example do you think he became estranged from the Congress and Gandhi? Because Gandhi was dabbling in religous politics.. He was mixing the two and Jinnah was against this. This obviously demonstrates his secular intentions, the belief that govt and politics should be seperate. He made it clear again is his founding speech where he said that religion was not the bussiness of the state.
But like the author said, that secularism has been demonized by the proponents of the religous state. Secular state does not discriminate against religion. Everyone is free to practice their beliefs freely without state involvment, be they Muslims, Christian, Hindu, or even Satan worshipers, point is a secular govt defends ALL religions. In a theocracy, like ours people that dont follow the state sanctioned religion are obviously discriminated against. First, such a govt doen not represent the minority, thus it is not a real democracy. Second, such a state will often fall in line with the majority in discriminating against the minority. Take the case of Ahmedis in Pakistan. Despite being citizens, their unrepresentative govt chooses to discriminate against them because they dont follow the state religion in the way the state deems fit.
The Europeans realized after centuries of mis rule under the Church that mixing govt politics and religion is doomed to failure. After inquisitions, churc corruption and god knows what they finally got smart and now they are far ahead of the Muslims worl in everything. Granted the seperation of Church and state wasnt the sole reason for thier success but the notion of secualr govt has played a big role in the development and success of Europe. Muslims sadly, havent realized that religion and politics are a disaster waiting to happen. We have to have or own inquistion perhaps god forbid, before this dawns on people.
I dont believe that the Islamic Khalifa states were ever seperate from religion, be it in the form of mosque, clerics or anyone else. Fact of the matter is that Religion was an integral part of these states, I mean the Khalifa himself was a religious leader in a way… At that time perhaps it was accpetable, state and religion were one and the same across the world, but the tensions that resulted were always there. The Crusades were caused by the alienation of the two groups, Europe and Middle east along religous lines.
If Pakistan wants to be a just society, the govt must drop the notion of a state religion. The state must never promote any single relgion above another. It must tolerate all religouns and must protect the religous sentiment of ALL people be they Sunnis, Christian, Hindu or even Ahmedi… Pakistan doesnt need to disinteigrate, simply start following the outline layed out by her founder..
I do agree that that there is such a thing a extreme secularism. Turkey for example is an extremist secular state in which religion is not tolerated, France is getting there to. US an Britain seem to be good role models here, where there is no percievable discrimination on relgious lines.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

Pakpatriot. It is indeed true that Kashmiris are very secular minded. Iqbal, who was a Kashmiri, was very secular (he drank quite a lot :bukbuk: ).

Pakpatriot does your advocacy of Farsi as official language have some connection with your secular politics?

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

Pseudo-secularism defined
The Asian Age India | Balbir K. Punj

It is a welcome development that the word "secular" is again the subject of debate. The confusion is evident from the so-called secular combination that is in power at the Centre. The ostensible reason why Prime Minister Manmohan Singh suffers all sorts of threats from the Left is said to be to keep the "communal" BJP out of power. The Left too claims that it is not bringing down the Congress-led government despite its "anti-people" policies like disinvestment, FDI, airport privatisation, labour reforms, etc., as otherwise great harm will come to "secularism."

Most of all, even the Muslim League is supporting this government just to protect "secularism." No one has condescended to find out when in the last 70 years did the League become "secular," or if there is any government on the face of this earth in a Muslim majority country (maybe with Turkey as an exception) where the secular doctrine prevails. If the Muslim League were a secular party, then secularism would need to be redefined or even rediscovered.

Professor Bernard Lewis who teaches at Princeton and is considered a world renowned authority on the Middle East, has written innumerable books on Islam including The Middle East: a Brief History of the Last 2000 Years. In a recent book, The Crisis of Islam, Prof. Lewis poses the question why religion is so overwhelmingly important in Muslim majority countries, while religion is not so overbearing in Christian, Buddhist, Hindu majority countries in the world. He answers the question thus: "One answer is obvious; most Muslim countries are still profoundly Muslim, in a way and in a sense that most Christian countries are no longer Christian."

The author says that though Christian clerics' influence in Christian countries is still considerable, the religions in these countries do not enjoy any immunity from criticism or discussion. On the contrary, in Muslim countries, even in those that are claiming to be secular and democratic, no criticism of the religious is tolerated. He goes on to point out that "from the lifetime of its Founder, and therefore, in its sacred scriptures, Islam is associated in the minds and memories of Muslims with the exercise of political and military power."

He finds that while the founders of other religions did not ask for, or enjoyed, political power, in Islam the Founder was both a prophet and the ruler. He had laid down the law and the Islamic psyche takes it as axiomatic that all that the modern state has to do is to implement that law. There is thus no room in Muslim minds for a rule of law that is different from what its Founder Prophet had laid down.

Unlike other religions, in Islam, the Founder had not only established a religion but a state co-terminus with his religion of which he was the head of state or ruler. The question of any state being secular in a Muslim majority country does not arise. "During Mohammed's lifetime, the Muslims became at once a political and religious community with the Prophet as the Head of State."

Lewis' finding is vindicated by the fact that the complaint of the jihadi followers and leaders is that even in Muslim countries the Islamic law as laid down by the Prophet is not being fully or properly implemented — they are not asking for a different law, civil or criminal. It is for our leaders in the Congress, in the Left or in the regional outfits like DMK, to state where they stand in such a situation where the Muslim mindset thirsts for Muslim law as different from secular laws.

Why are Brinda Karat and her band of women activists staying silent on what happened in a UP village where the Muslim Personal Law was interpreted to mean that a daughter-in-law raped by her father-in-law must live with her rapist and accept him as her new husband in preference to her existing husband (the son of the rapist)? The case of another woman in Pakistan who was sentenced under Muslim law to be gang-raped has hit world headlines. Some of the provisions of what goes as Muslim Personal Law would shock the modern conscience, but we hardly hear any criticism even from the so-called secular outfits.

There could be little doubt that historically the India that we know of had provided shelter to a large number of the world's persecuted minorities. And that this was done under Hindu kings. Jews, persecuted in their homeland and the Middle East, flocked to the Indian west coast. In the native kingdom of Kochi, Jews were welcomed and allowed land for a synagogue and a Jewish quarter at a stone's throw from the king's palace and the temple. Zoroastrians, who were persecuted when Iran came under Islamic influence, got a sanctuary on the Gujarat coast.

In a recent research article, a US professor, Mrs Cornine G. Dempsey, who has several authoritative works on Christianity in India, reveals how closely Hindu culture influenced Christianity in Kerala. In this article published in the Jesuit research journal Vidyajyoti in its June issue, the professor says that she met one Father Verghese of the Syrian Orthodox Church. In response to her questions on Hindu-Christian cultural influences, Father Verghese "enthusiastically rallied a rather Hindu nationalistic response: ‘We are all Hindus in India'."

Prof. Dempsey writes: "Taken aback at his answer and thinking that perhaps Kerala Christianity, even on the official level, had adopted a kind of neo-Vedantic approach in which religions, like rivers, all lead to the same ocean, I was eager to hear more from Father Verghese… He did not mean that literally everyone in India was Hindu, of course, it was that people shared, regardless of their religious affiliation, a common culture — a culture that contained certain practices that he and other like-minded people deemed Hindu." The priest told the American professor that it did not mean that Christians there were less Christian or that they accepted everything in Hindu culture. But they freely accepted many cultural practices and Hindus also did not consider other religions as alien.

It is also significant that even Islam came to the Kerala coast through the traders — unlike in the North, as invaders. I am told that the Muslim gentry of Malabar were readily accepting Hindu cultural symbols like huge brass lamps that remain lit round the clock, and that in the last 50 years, the increasing influence of the Gulf jobs and money had promoted a separatism that emphasised differences from the surrounding Hindu culture, language and tradition. In the 19th century, they sided with the Hindu king of theirs rather than the Muslim invader in the form of Tipu Sultan from neighbouring Mysore.

It is, therefore, not without reason that "secularism" is considered intrinsic to Hinduism. When we say "cultural nationalism," it does not have even any remote reference to denying anyone his religious practices, either in private or public. Those who are claiming to be "secular" on the other hand, must ask themselves how many Islamic countries allow openly holding the functions of other religions. Or why they are silent against Islamic fundamentalists who have a medieval mindset, or are hesitant to criticise the violation of human rights in the name of religious law. That is why we find them to be pseudo-secular.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

If secular means killing all the religious scholars, killing people who have beards and those who follow religion, then no body wants it. We all know what happened in Turkey and how people were killed because they wanted to follow certain religious beliefs. That type of deceptive democracy is another form of terrorism on the opposite side of the religious extremism.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

I never advocated Farsi as the official language.. You musy have me confused with someone else..

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

Well there is extreme secularism as there is extreme thoercracy… Turkey is an example of a secular country thats gone extremist. A middle ground is best. In the US, religion is seperate from state, but relgion is freely practived, and profesed , even by the president, and religous symbols are freely worn everywhere..

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular… Why!!!

Perhaps I was making too big a deal on the cleric thing. However, as for Jinnah wanting a secular Pakistan…I don’t think it was an issue for him. He never once used the word secular. He was allegedly admired the Attaturk…so why did he not follow in his footsteps and impose a staunchly secularist ideology? Would kind of kill the notion of a homeland for MUSLIMS, wouldn’t it?

There is no such thing as a secular Muslim identity, or Muslims as a cultural and not religious group. This is but a recent trend, and an imposition on History. Jinnah full well knew he was dealing with a religious community, and spoke to it’s fears.

In an interview, and I think it’s the same one where he asked if Pakistan would be a theocracy, Jinnah said:

"When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studied Islam. We learned democracy thirteen centuries ago.”

This is NOT a pro-secular stance.

Jinnah spoke of ““liberty, fraternity and equality as enjoined upon us by Islam”. Again, not a very secular stance.

Many more interesting quotes (even if you decide to ignore the body of the article itself) are posted here:
http://www.despardes.com/articles/mar05/jinnah-islam.asp

Jinnah was not silent on Islam, and the one oft quoted speech where he proclaims that the state has no business with religion quite frankly smacks of either being two faced, or of having a peculiar view of Islam in the state (but by no means a secular one).

Yes, but equality is not the same as secular though. Islam was indeed to be the religion of the state, however it’s imposition on minorities or it’s use as a tool to opress minorities was considered abominable by him. You cannot simply quote a single speech and pretend that that was Jinnah’s master plan. What of all those other speeches where he, unlike Attaturk, invoked Islam in the most passionate way?

Here’s a thought expierement. If a group of people hold views that the state contradicts, to such an extent that this group of people feel they cannot participate in the mechanisms of state then is that inequality as the state no longer represents these people? Such a scenario can well happen even between secular ideologies, so why is a special case made out of religion? It is the onus of a minority to assimilate to some degree to the majorities established paradigm. This is how secular systems work, so why should it be different for any other system?

One cannot gathe that from a single speech…come on! Again, why did he not formalize Pakistan’s secularism? The concept WAS known to him, and Turkey did exactly that. Jinnah was well aware of what was going on in Turkey.

Further, if Jinnah was two faced as you suggest, then screw him. The only reason why people followed him was because of his invocation of Islam…so it is that sentiment that Pakistan owes it’s creation to, otherwise most Muslims would have thought he was a whack job and no one would have fell for the idea of a secular Pakistan.

In theory, and on paper. But what of France? Even in the US, there are limits (no prayer in school, for example). In a secular system, the state has the absolute right to curtail any religious practice. Ultimate authority resides in the state, and religion is subserviant to it, not independent. This is the reality.

My government, and the US one for that matter, does not represent Muslim interests. We are a minority. Is it still a democracy?

This point is not valid as a govt. like Pakistan makes a point to ignore the will of the majority. Further, how could you have a secular government without imposition if the majority have such strong religious sentiments? Secularism is hardly a solution in this case.

Yet, Muslim civilization reached it’s zenith when the two mixed. Nor can the fall of the Ottoman empire be squarely blamed on the Ulema (although they did not help). Ditto for the Mughals, who were quite “secular” themselves with few exceptions.

The Church was unique as it was a single, united institution that ran in paralell to state governments. The Muslim world has no such institution.

Industrilzation due to post-enlightenment thinking (which was supressed by the Church) was what led to the rise of Europe. The Muslim world’s problem cannot be traced to the Mullah in this regard. Where they may not be helping, I certainly don’t see them burning down the few universities that exist in the Muslim world. Islamists tend to be very well educated, and Science-philes themselves.

The problem in the Muslim world is one of management. Not of a supression of ideas. Tell a Muslim the world is round, no biggie. Tell them about the Internet, or black holes, again no biggie. The fact is, there is no unified doctorine comming from Mullahs that is stagnating our society. This is just wishful thinking by lazy liberal intellectuals who don’t want to hunker down and do the real work neccessary of empowering society. Secularism is a distraction at best.

One can be too technical when talking about secularism. The fact is, most Khalifas were secular-minded (i.e. worried about worldly matters), and didn’t simply concern themselves with religious rites and rituals. Hazrat Umar is a prime example of this.

And a minor event in history. Compare that, to say, European Imperalism…which was secular in nature.

This is a loaded phrase…I don’t see the connection. Is practicing a religion unjust?

Promotion is one thing, however abiding by the principles of is another.

Re: Pakistan Should Be Secular... Why?!?!

First we have to understand that Jinnah was a politician and lawyer.. We have to stop seeing him as Hazrat Mohamad Ali Jinnah. A politician/ Lawyer will tailor is speech to the audience he is addressing. A lawyer may speak passionaltely on behalf of a criminal, or against him, but it all depends on who he is representing. In this case he was representing the Muslim Minority of India. To win the over to his side, he had to transform himself into what they would be most receptive to. But, there is Jinnah the leader, and Jinnah the Man, and you cannot deny the fact that through out his life, Jinnah was an Avid secularist. Sadly, he did not live long enough to lead his people or his country in any real way. Had he lived even a year or two longer, perhaps we could have seen the foundation of a purely secular society, perhaps based on Islamic influences. The reason he did not follow Attaturk is that he obviously did not have the time to lead his country in the same way as Attaturk, and because while he admired him, he obviously did not agree with Attaturks methodology.
Attaturk turned his back on Islamic culture completely, Jinnah sought to incorporate Islam into his plan for the sake of winning Muslims to his side. But I believed he would have tailored his state so that while Islam was the source of inspiration and influence, it was not the recognized religion of the state.
When he said ""When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studied Islam. We learned democracy thirteen centuries ago.." I dont think that necesarilly means he wanted a Theocracy. He simply meant that he wanted a society that was influenced by Islamic precepts, but not one that relies solely on Islam or refers to it as the official religion. He was a pragmatist as you said, he say that in a society where 95 percent are Muslim, Islam would definently play a role in the state, but I dont think he wanted to be directly connected with the state. You see this in America where Bush is obviously influenced by Born Again Christianity, but this doesnt mean that there is no seperation of Church and State.
Same idea in this "Jinnah spoke of "“liberty, fraternity and equality as enjoined upon us by Islam". Again, not a very secular stance."
Im a secularist and I believe in the same things, democracy and Islam are compatible, and so are liberty and fraternity and equality. Islamic Democracy only works if everyone is Muslim and have the same views. Equality can only be given at the expense of political equality in the eyes of the govt and state. I dont think that a country which professes one relgion as the state religion can ever be truly equatable towards those that dont belong to that relgion. A democracy is a representative govt, so how can a govt be representative govt that only represents a single community be representative?
Pakistan is the example, where only Muslims may become head of state!

Your example I get... Your saying that if a group such as the Gay or Black in America for example, dont feel they are represented, it is the same as the lack of representation of religious Minorties in a theocracy.
The problem is that your assuming this is ok. A group that isnt being represented has a right to demand more representation. This is the logic behind secularist, by not professing any relgion or any creed, you are trying to level the political playing field for ALL groups. In a secular society, all groups are able negotiate a better deal through the mechanism of the govt. The Secular state is inclusive by nature. In a non Secular state, minority groups that are misrepresented are not able to change their status, because the very nature of the state. A Theocracy is one in which the same principles enshrined by the state, those being that state and relgion are one, are the same that exclude Minority religous groups from being represented, these principles are writtten in stone and cant be changed... So a Minority groups is effectively allienated from the govt and political mainstream simply because of the very nature of the theocratic state, which by its very definition, excludes certain groups.
America may not represent Muslims, but neither does it represent any other religous group. All religous groups are equal in the eyes of the US govt. Non are given preferential treatment. And yet Muslim are represented through secular leaders who are willing to represent their cinstituency as long as it is not at the expense of any other religous group or does not infringe on the secular principles of the state.
As for france, they are starting to take it to far. The US allows religous symbols in school and that is fine. I agree that prayer should not be allowed in state schools however, although High schools have allowed some exceptions for Muslim students. Besides, there are religous schools in the US that are free to pray all day if they like.
As for the will of the Majority in Pakistan, this is very dangerous thought.. You saying that a if the Majorirty wills it, any group can be singled out? Isnt this what lead to the holocaust? If tommorow, American Christians decided that Muslims were to dangerous to continue to live in the US, and they should ALL be expelled on masse, you woul support this? If Pakistan were a secular society the Ahmedis would not have been allowed to be discriminated against in this way. Even if they were labeled as non Muslims, the injustices hoisted on them would have been avoided.
I agree with your point on Europe and the role of the Church as compared to that in the Muslim world, you got me there.
But, you have to agree that Muslim dark ages, which I really think we are in today is not due to lack of education but due to something far deeper, and people can and have writted entire books on the issue. I think its a dark ages brought upon by our inablitity reconcile with changing times. Its a struggle between the moderates, the secularist and the hard liner extremist. These problems within ourselves, this inability to reconcile with Islam in the classical sense and the modern world, thats keeping us behind. This I blame on the Clergy. A secular govt would allow us to overcome this conflict, allow people to practice their religion on their own and let the state fnction independantly and not take sides.
Im willing to accpet that at least on paper, a religous Islamic society can be on par with a secualr society, after all, even a non muslim could represent a Muslim majority, but this is only on paper. Fact is that we have to take human nature into account, and mixing religion and politics is very dangerous especially in the world of today, it may have worked before but I dont think it can work today.
Pakistan can only be just society if it drops the idea of state sponsered relgion. If it doesnt it will always be unrepresentative and dangerous.. How many more Ahmedi groups will crop up for example, how many more injustices will be wrought upon the hapless minorities at the behest of the Majority and the govt that represents them?