Interesting even Syria is courting Pakistan to not to vote for a second UN Resolution authorising force against Iraq.
Syrian President phones Musharraf on Iraq issue
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad phoned his Pakistani counterpart Pervez Musharraf on Monday to discuss boosting cooperation in the UN Security Council to prevent a war against Iraq. Both Syria and Pakistan hold rotating seats on the UN’s supreme decision making body. “Assad called on Pakistan, as a Muslim country and member of the UN Security Council to boost efforts and cooperate with Syria and other council members to unite against any initiative or effort aiming to give the United States pretexts to attack Iraq,” the official SANA news agency said. The Syrian leader also informed his Pakistani counterpart of the results of the Arab summit in Egypt on Saturday, during which the Arab states stressed their “firm refusal” of any strike on Iraq.
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*Originally posted by KhanAbadosh: *
Aaah, you would love it if Afghanistan supported USA when its on the door steps of Pakistan since Pakistan has the ISLAMIC BOMB for the same reasons eh?
1 reason why Pakistan supports USA is because Pakistan is dalal of its Muslim brothers, and a cheap dalal also. Where we get 300 million and Turkey gets 26 billion. All in all more Pakistanis have died then Turkmens.
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Afghanistan's decisions to support or oppose the US, were their own.
No, I would NOT support the US bombing in Afghanistan because unlike the Iraqi regime, the Taliban had been our allies. To stab them in the back was shameful. One time I used to believe in Muslim unity, but when I realized that if Pakistan was (God Forbid) being vanquished from the face of the earth, how many Muslim countries would come its aid? If you speak of dalals, first get the so-called Muslim 'ummah' united!
What about Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, KSA (secretly), Jordan and soon Turkey supporting the US against Iraq? Why make Pakistan the puching bag on this one. Why does Islamiyat become a one way street, when Iraq is being attacked, pakistan must rush to support it, while they outright oppose us on Kashmir! Last time I checked, Kashmiris were Muslims too and in worse shape than Iraqis.
i wonder why people were so happy about US action in kosovo, i mean an average serb had little if any say, just like an average iraqi has littl or any say. did we start asking if we were punishing serbs for their government.
state controlled media and dictatorship or not, Even in its worst dictatorship that I have seen i.e. gen zia's time. Pakistanis protested, even during the war in afghanistan, those who did not agree with it demonstrated.
How many Iraqis have we seen demonstrate? on any issue really. and as Rajput points out even the expat Iraqis.
as much as people want this Ummah thing, it does not exist, national intersts rule the day..for every country. Now one can push someone's buttons by using the ummah card, but it has to be an equal give and take there.
It would really be best if the iraqis themselves overthrow Saddam and save the rest of the world some problems.
Whatever you want to say about Pakistan, a country's fist responsibility is to watch out for the welfare of its own citizens.
It's not about what other countries are doing. The issue is how as a nation we want to deal with this issue. When Turkey has rebuked the US offer of billions of dollars of aid, then why can't the Pakistanis show some dignity and listen to what the people have to say; who overwhelmingly oppose US' intervention in the region
Mind you guys, that the war is not about throwing off Saddam regime, but to change the entire geo-political face of the Middle East and the repercussions of this attack will be far grave than one may expect; not just for Iraq but for the entire region. But, I doubt that the government of Pakistani has the spine or will to say NO to the US.
How Iraq is exactly messing with us? Actually, Iraq happens to be one of the chief importer of Pakistani grain and other products, and had supplied oil to us on very cheap rates in the past. Facts are one thing and basing point of view on mere conjecture is another.
Originally posted by outlaw: *
**The issue is how as a nation we want to deal with this issue. When Turkey has rebuked the US offer of billions of dollars of aid, then why can't the Pakistanis show some dignity and listen to what the people have to say; who overwhelmingly oppose US' intervention in the region *
yeah cuz Turkey has not done it for some noble reasons but due to the fact that those billions of dollars may not be enough, and it would also create potential issues in turkey with the whole kurdish movement.
Heck you want to make Turkeyy a role model, I am all for it, lets do it. kick the mullahs out first. secularise the country,...oh i suppose now turkey is not such a great role model.
there were countries that also opposed the war in kosovo, not for some altruistic reasons, but for their own political reasons.
If nothing else, Mushraff is very truthful when he says “national interest remains constant, policies change”. Even though being an idealist I don’t agree with this stance but most of the countries around the world go by this rule of thumb.
Those “regimes” that are against the war are for their own benefits, be it their lucrative oil exchanges with Iraq, or a lack of ‘fair’ business dealings with a post war Iraq or the fact that their own ‘regime’ might get into trouble because of the public out cry or a pro-western (or a pro-American) regime takes over Iraq, or their hatred of anything that the American side would do.
Those ‘regimes’ that in favor of the war, have their own self centered view of how the lives of millions of Iraqis who they have never cared for & still don’t, should go about doing their daily business.
If you think it’s the NWO, then maybe you should look back into history. It has happened many times before where ‘nations’ from far away places have come & taken over ‘regions’ trying to justify it in glory. Baghdad probably has seen it more than its fair share of violence, be it the Persians, or the inner strife of different Muslim Caliphs or the Mangols and in the resent past the laser guided missiles.
Keeping in mind the big global picture, Pakistan should refrain from voting on a second resolution, sighting an absentee!
Outlaw bhai, maybe you should check Iraq’s long lost love with India & their “official” stance on Kashmir.
US' intervention in Kosovo cannot be compared to Iraq. The invasion of Iraq- most likely not backed by the UN - is an act of aggression.
Let's not talk about Kosovo; how about if we start with Bosnia, where the entire world community failed to intervene for six years whilest hundreds of thousands muslims were slaughtered? While the Muslims were slapped with the weapons embargo; Karadzic and his band carried out ethnic cleansing with full logistical backing of Russia. The US campaign came too late for the ones that were killed, and at a time when the whole war was about to engulf other countries such as Greece and Turkey. Same thing in Kosovo; the Yugoslavian government was left intact to carryout further genocide in Albania, and it was a failure and not the victory in Kosovo, because hindreds of thousands more muslims died.
And who's talking about Mullah's in this conflict or idealizing Turkey? At least the Turkish government followed democratic process in place- where ninety percent of the population is opposed to this conflict - by carrying out a vote in the parliament. I dare Musharraf to do the same and yes without hijacking and harrassing the parliamentarians. Let's do it the democratic way; but who am I kidding, we are talking about Pakistan
outlaw so how russia which was supporting the serbs now all of a sudden a pal of iraqis?
national interests.
The point u dont understand is thatI personally am opposed to the war, however, when we look at countries aopposed to the war officially you seem tot hink that they are at some higher moral ground, whereas the reason is more along the lines of national interests.
anyhow..Pakistan should follow the example of turkey then. but lets not jump to any conclusions..turkey will come around as well when they know that their economic and kurdish issues have been countered effectively :)
How mundane it's to blame Iraq for our own failed policy in Kahsmir. Where's the US has refused- the country we'll back in this conflict - to enforce India into accepting the UN resolutions in Kashmir. Despite all the support in Afghanistan, Pakistan falied to gain crucial support on global arena in Kashmir.
But, let's keep this dicussion focused on Pakistan. First we need to understand the outcome of this war, and the mentality of the ones who are backing this war and for what reasons. When you look at the character of the likes of Wolwowitz and Rumsfeld - who oppose the creation of independent Palestinean state- it leaves little doubt that how the entire region is about to be manipulated in the best interest of Israel. There's also an aggressive aspect to this war, which we should not neglect; how the Muslim coutries in the region will be enforced to accept US' hegemony. Would this go on and other countries will be invaded one after the other? Where would this all end; certainly not in Iraq.
Fraudz, I am not looking at it from a higher moral ground; if the Zionists were not the main backers of this war, I would have gladly supported it, since Saddam has to be taken care of.
I just don't like the strategic goals behind this war and what may happen as a result of this war. But, I don't have any sympathy for the Arab leaders; however I vehemently oppose US' intervention if that means enforcing fundamental changes to the Islamic school of thought.
I find it very interesting how the attitude & expectation towards USA is very different from what the world expect from other countries. Americans are expected to be tolerant, humble, the care taker of all crisis in the world and yet be totally selfless & righteous. Even from nations that themselves don’t hold even an iota of these qualities expect US to be the role model & as they fail to do so miserably, they hate them for it. I have a firm belief that being the ‘sole super power of the world’ is a curse for America as a nation, and the sooner they get rid if it, the better off they will be.
As the recently resigned (aka fired) undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, Charlotte Beers said, “The gap between who we are and how we wish to be seen, and how we are in fact seen, is frighteningly wide”
Ahmadjee, I think I am more American than the Americans living in the US :) But, that's not the point, neither anyone is implying that if the Americans are or should be subjected to hatred. No! There's a fundamental disagreement in which the American government is acting; and most reasonable Americans are also opposed to this war. There ought to be debate on these issues. Americans should not be mislead by a band of evil mongers and should be told facts and not some conjured up reasoning behind this war.
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*Originally posted by outlaw: *
however I vehemently oppose US' intervention if that means enforcing fundamental changes to the Islamic school of thought.
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if the islamic school of thought you refer to is the puritanical, tribal, interpretation used by monarchs and their state religion buddies, the brainwashing of youth and use of the religion card by any two bit goon to rally support of imbecilles behind him..then I for one would be in teh favour of the fundamental change.
Yes, that's where the fundamental disagreement lies. Puritanical and fundamentalist ideology does not mean lack of modernization. Although, the modernization should be carried out with in the parameters of the scripture itself and not something dictated by the outsiders. The Arab regimes have not modernized and let the system to evolve. They have not implemented democratic reforms, and now they are weak and vulnerable, and unable to defend even the basics of their roots. Now, you have radical Christians and Zionists- extreme elements - leading this war to change the entire geo-political system in their own favor.
....I just don't like the strategic goals behind this war and what may happen as a result of this war. But, I don't have any sympathy for the Arab leaders; however I vehemently oppose US' intervention if that means enforcing fundamental changes to the Islamic school of thought.
hain? what changes are you talking about. The "school of thought" you're probably referring to was effectively changed after WWI with the destruction of khilafah. After that, nationalism took root and now we have 100 schools of thoughts. So please clarify which particular school of thought you're trying to protect.
Ohh.. BTW, we don't need US to enforce changes, Allah mian has blessed us with dime a dozen moulvees to do it for us.
The "school of thought" you're probably referring to was effectively changed after WWI with the destruction of khilafah. <<
Ghalib: why do you have this habit of coming to judgements merely based on assumptions? I am not too concerned with what happened a century ago. We can learn from the events, but the reasons and tactics of confronting threats is not applicable in this day and age. My main concern is when the Muslims are told how to practice our lives and reform the fundamentals of our religion in accordance with the will of the enemies.
I don't care much about any school of thought in particular. I just practice what's ascribed in the scripture itself. Does not take a rocket scientist or hundreds of moulvis to understand.
I think you're too anal in how you look at this "school of thought" concept at the expense of looking at a bigger picture. When you say "...My main concern is when the Muslims are told how to practice our lives and reform the fundamentals of our religion in accordance with the will of the enemies....," you're overlooking the fact that it had happened far before this century and it was made official at the conclusion of WWI. You talk about "fundamentals of our religion,' well what could be more fundamental then the concept of one "ummah" upon which the whole religion is based and built upon. Not individualism or nationalism. When that fundamental concept is removed, what else is left but a region back to similar pre-Islamic era with various tribes except now they all share a single religion. Nobody is going to come and tell you that you should instead pray towards the vatican or not believe in the prophet as you do now etc. etc. What good would that do? As long as you're feeble and meek, "reformation" is complete.
I think you're getting consolation from an "outsider" not coming to your door and specifically telling you how to live out your religion or lives. Whereas its not needed when leaders of your countries are doing it for them. Just try calling a meeting in any of the Middle eastern countries about injustices and oppression of people and watch how quickly you'll be whisked away.
...We can learn from the events, but the reasons and tactics of confronting threats is not applicable in this day and age.
Ever heard of the adage, "history repeats itself"?
The problem is that the bigger picture just does not exist anymore. This time around there's no Islamic empire, like the Ottomon. The outcome of this conflict is quite unpredictable, and it's too obvious that the regional transformation by force, will not serve the interests of Muslims , especially the Arab citizens. Whether, it's changing the borders of the countries; intalling puppet regimes; and in essence all this effect will trickle down to how the muslims practice their lives. Can anyone gaurantee that the regimes currently favoring the US are immune from further aggression. I don't think so! Where is this all going to end and whether the region will become more stable because of this war ?
Wrapping up what I have to say, what are we as Pakistanis afraid of by voting against the new resolution ? We produce enough grain to sustain ourselves; we produce surplus power to have our factories running; we are economically stable now than we were three years ago. We will not be shoved in a corner by voting against it in the UN. The war is inevitable and even if the US has enough votes, it will be vetoed, and the US will go ahead with war. But, for once, what's wrong with sticking to our moral principles and duty ? Pakistan is not sending forces into actual combat and for time being the war will bring no ill effect to our economy, except for higher fuel prices. So, the monetory gains are minimal. We will not win the US backing on Kashmir issue, so there's no strategic gain what so ever. Then, why not just vote against it.